Believing versus Knowing

[manitou]

What's the difference between believing and knowing?

 

It seems that beliefs are touchy things, bound up in the ego of the believer. Brains are involved. Most often, at least here in the midwest part of the US, beliefs are something that are handed down by the folks, the kids are dragged to church, and the 'belief' in the power of the devil and of hell and of salvation only by believing in the saving grace of Jesus - these beliefs are unquestionable if you want to get along in this part of the country. Best I just keep my mouth shut around here. The Lore of Christianity rules, not to be questioned. Seems to me that 'believing', such as a religious 'believing', is merely a choice to continue with a mind construct that defies all common sense.

 

I think it's when we stop having to 'believe' anything with our brains that Knowing has a chance to settle in. There are certain unseen Laws and Rules of the Universe that must be proven to ourselves in order to be understood and "gotten".

 

In my particular case, and I can only speak for me, a degree of Knowing has arrived due to the shedding of unnecessary personality parts. I've done this over a period of 30 years - the conscious elimination of undesirable traits (which I have had to do to stay sober, so it really wasn't all my own volition). The process of peeling the onion is the single most important thing I've ever done in my life, as I see it.

 

It has been during the peeling process, always, that growth has occurred. The type of growth that sheds the need for belief in any particular religious construct. Once we have reached this milepost, there seems to be a wellspring of information that is at our instant access; perhaps it really is the Akashic records, as some have said. Whatever it is, it is phenomenal. There is no doubt. The answers and the right actions are there, because somehow we have managed to transcend the visible phenomenal world and can see the workings of a dynamic that is invisible to most, but most clear to one who can see its workings in their own life.

 

It is the dynamic, the tendency toward the light, that becomes visible. It is through these eyes that we become able to see and relate one object/person/situation to another. It seems to serve as a sort of template or blueprint that guides and prods us to the highest action.

 

Can anyone else explain this in different words?

[Jeff]

As issues, fears and obstructions are dropped, it makes room for wisdom to flow.

 

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

Edited May 12, 2014 by Jeff

[LAOLONG]

you believe when you don't know

[johndoe2012]

In direct experience beliefs are thoughts.

 

Then it seems there are structures that holds these beliefs in place. Some call this the unconcious.

 

When one works with energy centers then some of the unconcious issues fall away.

 

When the issues fall away one just knows.

[Chang]

The believer simply has faith.

 

Those who know also have faith but that faith has been gained through direct knowledge earned by experience.

[manitou]

The way I think it works is that by stripping ourselves, we get down to the original human, a being we all share. if we get to the point where we've stripped the superfluous away (especially the resentments and judgments) we are left with the original human personality, both a receiver and an actor. So by getting to know our unembellished self, we can get to know the unembellished self of others, as One we Are.

 

What results is Self Realization, the thing which nobody can give to anybody else. it's an inside job. Once Self Realization has been achieved, the third eye is developed - perhaps in conjunction with Kundalini awakening? I don't know how the third eye is developed - I just know it happens; and when it does, we're looking at things and situations from a different vantage point.

 

Any thoughts on the third eye and Self-Realization?

[GrandmasterP]

Zen master Daowu visited the assembly of master Shitou.

Daowu asked, What is the fundamental meaning of Buddha-dharma?

Shitou said, Not to attain, not to know.

Daowu said, Is there some turning point in going beyond, or not?

Shitou said, The vast sky does not hinder the white clouds from flying

 

Shitou said, Not to attain, not to know. Understand that in Buddha-dharma the fundamental meaning is in the first thought, as well as in the ultimate level. This fundamental meaning is not-attaining. It is not that there is no aspiration for enlightenment, no practice, or no enlightenment. But simply, [there is] not-attaining.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Seth Ananda]

In my book, knowledge and belief are conceptual things, based on strings of thoughts and Ideas, caught up in time, that may be highly useful or highly stupid for us here.

 

'Knowing' on the other hand is non-conceptual, it is not based on strings of thoughts and ideas, seems to not come from time, and is always right or exact, for the moment that it arises, and no more...

 

 

 

When I say non-conceptual, I mean that its not a 'concept' {a thought} which are things that move, where as 'Knowing' is still, and seems to belong to the space that thoughts and concepts happen within.

 

It is utter certainty that is void of mental processing.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[doc benway]

What's the difference between believing and knowing?

 

It seems that beliefs are touchy things, bound up in the ego of the believer. Brains are involved. Most often, at least here in the midwest part of the US, beliefs are something that are handed down by the folks, the kids are dragged to church, and the 'belief' in the power of the devil and of hell and of salvation only by believing in the saving grace of Jesus - these beliefs are unquestionable if you want to get along in this part of the country. Best I just keep my mouth shut around here. The Lore of Christianity rules, not to be questioned. Seems to me that 'believing', such as a religious 'believing', is merely a choice to continue with a mind construct that defies all common sense.

 

I think it's when we stop having to 'believe' anything with our brains that Knowing has a chance to settle in. There are certain unseen Laws and Rules of the Universe that must be proven to ourselves in order to be understood and "gotten".

 

In my particular case, and I can only speak for me, a degree of Knowing has arrived due to the shedding of unnecessary personality parts. I've done this over a period of 30 years - the conscious elimination of undesirable traits (which I have had to do to stay sober, so it really wasn't all my own volition). The process of peeling the onion is the single most important thing I've ever done in my life, as I see it.

 

It has been during the peeling process, always, that growth has occurred. The type of growth that sheds the need for belief in any particular religious construct. Once we have reached this milepost, there seems to be a wellspring of information that is at our instant access; perhaps it really is the Akashic records, as some have said. Whatever it is, it is phenomenal. There is no doubt. The answers and the right actions are there, because somehow we have managed to transcend the visible phenomenal world and can see the workings of a dynamic that is invisible to most, but most clear to one who can see its workings in their own life.

 

It is the dynamic, the tendency toward the light, that becomes visible. It is through these eyes that we become able to see and relate one object/person/situation to another. It seems to serve as a sort of template or blueprint that guides and prods us to the highest action.

 

Can anyone else explain this in different words?

 

I think of belief as a fervent hope that an assumption is correct.

One can (and does) lead their entire life based on incorrect assumptions…

Knowledge, on the other hand, is based on fact or experience.

More likely, though not always, a solid foundation.

 

I try to avoid substituting belief for the absence of knowledge.

Better to know that one does not know.

[doc benway]

The way I think it works is that by stripping ourselves, we get down to the original human, a being we all share. if we get to the point where we've stripped the superfluous away (especially the resentments and judgments) we are left with the original human personality, both a receiver and an actor. So by getting to know our unembellished self, we can get to know the unembellished self of others, as One we Are.

 

What results is Self Realization, the thing which nobody can give to anybody else. it's an inside job. Once Self Realization has been achieved, the third eye is developed - perhaps in conjunction with Kundalini awakening? I don't know how the third eye is developed - I just know it happens; and when it does, we're looking at things and situations from a different vantage point.

 

Any thoughts on the third eye and Self-Realization?

 

When one has a direct experience of what you are describing, a profound and overwhelming feeling of unconditional love for all living (and non-living) things is there, a natural and unavoidable consequence of seeing the non-other nature and the great perfection. The love of one's Self, absent all judgement and expectation. I know that you know this…

 

I"believe" that this is why bodhicitta is often referred to as the nature of mind by Buddhist masters such as Longchenpa. I find it interesting that bodhicitta is equated with concepts like unconditional love and compassion when discussing our training and spiritual growth on the Mahayana path but when the same term is used to describe the very ground of our being in other contexts, such as Dzogchen texts, it is often stripped of that aspect and translated as luminous mind or in similar, more sterile terms by Western translators (see Keith Dowman's translations for example).

 

I am relatively inexperienced and un-learned, but I find it difficult to accept that masters such as Longchenpa intended a different interpretation or connotation when using boddhicitta to describe the very nature of our being as compared to generating unconditional love and compassion in our spiritual growth. In fact, I "believe" that one of the reasons that the generation of bodhicitta is so strongly emphasized in the Mahayana path is that practiced familiarity may make one more likely to manifest (dissolve into) the direct, spontaneous experience. Perhaps an explanation is that the direct experience is lacking among some of our learned scholars and translators, therefore the context for accurate interpretation is absent (and seems too far fetched to accept on faith).

 

Or maybe I'm just misguided and dead wrong - quite possible and certainly not unprecedented!

 

 

I like Sadhguru's very direct and clear discussion of the third eye:

 

Sobering and accessible as compared to some of the pie in the sky bullshit I often see and hear for sale regarding the third eye…

 

edit - added 'regarding' in the last line

Edited May 12, 2014 by steve

[thelerner]

Believing vs Knowing.

 

I suppose if its still there and true after you stop believing, then it passes into knowing.

hate to get to get religious but there's the person who truly believes in Jesus

and then there's person and says 'Hey Jesus' and a man appears out of thin air

and says 'Yo, what?'

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

...

 

I like Sadhguru's very direct and clear discussion of the third eye:

 

Sobering and accessible as compared to some of the pie in the sky bullshit I often see and hear for sale regarding the third eye

 

edit - added 'regarding' in the last line

Sad guru is right out to lunch. What a pile of crap.. First off the heart is the source of all, boddhicitta. Secondly, the third eye sees lower and upper, it does see sahasrara. Thirdly, there is no gap as this fake says.

 

For an authentic rendition of the third eye, consult Gurudeva,..

 

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/merging-with-siva/merging-with-siva.pdf

 

 

 

Friday

LESSON 285 Divine Sight

And Illumination

The sixth force center is âjñâ, or the third eye. Åjñâ chakra means command center and grants direct expe- rience of the Divine, not through any knowledge passed on by others, which would be like the knowledge found in books. Magnetized to the cavernous plexus and to the pineal gland and located between the brows, the âjñâ chakra gov- erns the superconscious faculties of divine sight within man. Its color is lavender. Of its two petals or facets one is the ability to look down, all the way down, to the seven talas, or states of mind, below the mûlâ- dhâra and the other is the ability to perceive the higher, spiritual states of consciousness, all the way up to the seven chakras above the sahasrâra. Thus, âjñâ looks into both worlds: the odic astral world, or Antarloka, and the actinic spiritual world, or Íivaloka. It, therefore, is the connecting link, allowing the jñânî to relate the highest consciousness to the lowest, in a unified vision. This center opens fully to the conscious use of man after many experiences of nirvikalpa samâdhi, Self Realization, resulting in total transformation, have been attained, although visionary insights and, particularly, inner light experiences are possible earlier. ¶

 

The com- position of this chakra is so refined, being primarily of actinic force, that a conscious knowledge of the soul as a scintillating body of pure energy or white light is its constant manifestation. From here man peers deeply into the mind substance, seeing simultaneously into the past, the present and the futuredeeper into evolutionary phases of creation, preserva- tion and destruction. He is able to travel consciously in his inner body, to enter any region of the mind without barrier and to reduce through his samyama, contemplation, all form to its constituent parts.

 

It is not recommended on the classical Hindu yoga path for one to sit and concen- trate on this force center, as the psychic abilities of the pineal gland can be prematurely awakened over which control is not possible, creating an un- necessary karmic sidetrack for the aspirant. Visions are not to be sought. They themselves are merely illusions of a higher nature around which a spiritual ego can grow which only serves to inhibit the final step on the path, that of the Truth beyond all form, beyond the mind itself. ..

 

 

It is an excellent book. I have read it twice.

 

Stay away from sadguru, he is bad news and has bad karma.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

And if you want to open your third eye, try the 9-1-9-1 pranayama, .. Something you won't find in most Buddhist teachings..

 

I did the 9-1-9-1 pranayama twice a day, every day for ten minutes each time for 5 years. Once your outer senses shut off, you will see visions.

 

More from Gurudeva..

 

the lotus of the heart comes from someplace, doesnt it? Let us think about it in this way. Each time you take a breath, you bring yourself a little closer, you turn yourself within just a little bit more and release a little bit of actinic energy emanating from the self-effulgent being residing within your heart. This energy is called life. We say, This is my life. If you stop breathing, the life in your body stops. We have to use willpower to control the breath. When we do control the breath, we begin to have an immense control, and awareness begins to become detached from that which it is aware of. This means that we are consciously conscious of what we are aware ofthat we are aware. We control our individual awareness more than we realize when we practice the regulation and control of breath. For instance, as we breathe, prâ∫âyâmain on nine counts, hold one, out on nine counts, hold onewe find that we begin to become more alert, more alive. Our awareness is more subtle and refined.

Wednesday

LESSON 59 The Evolution Of Awareness

The emanation of the light that wells from within the lotus of the heart is always there, regardless of what you do. You may not be aware of the existence of it, but it does exist. You may not care to realize it, but it still exists. When man does not wish to look for the Self God, it is only because his awareness is busy in other areas of the mind, concerned with desires, and he is on the road to fulfill them. The fulfillment of de- sires causes reactionary conditions within the subconscious mind itself and clouds vision. This causes what is known as the darkness of the mind. When man wishes and desires to find his true Self, his external desires fall in line with basic religious codes for living, and he then is on the path. He is able to realize the essence of each desire on the path of enlightenment, and is able to sense Reality within himself. ¶

 

A beautiful practice is to try to sit quietly, visualizing within the lotus within the heart a light, a strong light emanating clearly, a light that is always there. This light is radiating at a higher vibration than any form with which you are familiar. Let us say, if you were to have this light in your hand and were able to use it in the external world, each form you turned it upon would disappear under the vibration of the light itself. That is as powerful as the effulgent light emanating from the Self, the Íivaness, which you will see within the lotus of the heart. ¶

 

The mind, or consciousness, is form with intense vibrations and lesser vibrations, all interrelating. When we are happy and joyous, we are aware of the refined states of consciousness. But when we are not happy or joyous, we are living in the grosser, darker areas of consciousness.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[z00se]

I have a very simple way of telling the difference.

 

Believing is something i work out through rational thought, sometimes it has not physical basis

 

Knowing is when i see something happen with my own senses, like you say without any prejudices. Knowing is often only temporary though, as in i only know this is true in this moment, it can always be different in another instance. Knowing right now though, it is wonderful insight. The best instances of knowing, i find, is when i thought or believed something, and i get shown something different. Not necessarily by a person but through my own experience.

 

So for me the main difference is being shown something contrary to my own belief. This has the power to alter my belief, not always permanently, but certainly in the known instance.

 

Jesus / God / Christians etc, i used to think it was all a load of rubbish, now i think it is good (although it can be used for bad). I read today about an aikido expert taught in some of the founding dojos who created his own aikido foundation, now backed by those very founding dojos in Japan. He had a law degree and said it was similar for him making the rules for the foundation that many dojos in america now were a part of. They had rules (obviously some that were not liked by all). He said breaking the rules, like breaking the law, didn't mean you were a bad person, it just meant that your interpretation of the rules was incorrect. He went on to explain it was like driving on the right side of the road in US and the left side in England, you just had to follow the rules there. This explaination seemed like a way of abusing his power and making it so ppl who broke the rules weren't being victimized but should change their behaviour to follow the rules. Rules should always be just, but it reminded me about movies i've seen where whites in power in early US translated the bible in a way that made it so blacks conformed to the way they wanted them to.

 

Faith is very powerful can be very good. It can also be abused though. Faith is a very real, valid and strong path similar to the taoists one in my opinion. However misguided faith is wrong and evil. Good Faith is a fasttrack way to being one with the tao without having to learn the ins and outs. After all you need to forget the ins and outs eventually to be at one with the tao.

[manitou]

 

In fact, I "believe" that one of the reasons that the generation of bodhicitta is so strongly emphasized in the Mahayana path is that practiced familiarity may make one more likely to manifest (dissolve into) the direct, spontaneous experience.

 

Sadhguru's description of the third eye matches my own experience. The depth of the inner vision equates to the length of the outer vision; by learning of our own inner dynamics (because all things follow natural laws) those inner dynamics can be superimposed on the outer world. It is as though one can raise up above a messy situation and one can actually envision a mental protractor that shows the angles and destination of any dynamic. This is invaluable during deep healings to see the dynamic that caused the diseased manifestation.

 

Steve - I've never heard it said that to 'manifest' is to 'dissolve into' the experience. That's kind of wonderfully put. although slightly different from manifesting as a result of not-doing.

[manitou]

 

A beautiful practice is to try to sit quietly, visualizing within the lotus within the heart a light, a strong light emanating clearly, a light that is always there.

 

You can take the light with you too - I sometimes imagine light coming out of my fingertips - long rays - and it keeps us mindful of what we really are. It can be done anywhere and even in a crowd of people. A good visualization to encourage mindfulness.

[doc benway]

Sad guru is right out to lunch. What a pile of crap.. First off the heart is the source of all, boddhicitta. Secondly, the third eye sees lower and upper, it does see sahasrara. Thirdly, there is no gap as this fake says.

 

For an authentic rendition of the third eye, consult Gurudeva,..

 

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/media/books/merging-with-siva/merging-with-siva.pdf

 

 

 

It is an excellent book. I have read it twice.

Thanks for the link - I will definitely check it out.

 

 

 

 

Stay away from sadguru, he is bad news and has bad karma.

 

A few acquaintances tried fairly hard to get me involved with Sadhguru.

I read a portion of a book and watched a bit of a video then passed both on.

I don't get a great feeling from him either but he does speak some truth here and there.

I

[soaring crane]

The believer simply has faith.

 

Those who know also have faith but that faith has been gained through direct knowledge earned by experience.

I was going to state simply that of belief and knowledge, faith trumps them both. Faith in what, you may ask...

[doc benway]

I was going to state simply that of belief and knowledge, faith trumps them both. Faith in what, you may ask...

 

I read a quote that I liked which may have been Osho and may have been Allan Watts.

I'll paraphrase it -

Belief is the hope that an idea or concept we hold dear is the truth.

Faith is the strength that allows us to let go of all ideas and concepts and accept that whatever remains is the truth.

[manitou]

Faith.

 

Faith to me is the assuredness that the universe is a friendly place. I also have faith that I create my own reality.

[Rara]

What's the difference between believing and knowing?

 

It seems that beliefs are touchy things, bound up in the ego of the believer. Brains are involved. Most often, at least here in the midwest part of the US, beliefs are something that are handed down by the folks, the kids are dragged to church, and the 'belief' in the power of the devil and of hell and of salvation only by believing in the saving grace of Jesus - these beliefs are unquestionable if you want to get along in this part of the country. Best I just keep my mouth shut around here. The Lore of Christianity rules, not to be questioned. Seems to me that 'believing', such as a religious 'believing', is merely a choice to continue with a mind construct that defies all common sense.

 

I think it's when we stop having to 'believe' anything with our brains that Knowing has a chance to settle in. There are certain unseen Laws and Rules of the Universe that must be proven to ourselves in order to be understood and "gotten".

 

In my particular case, and I can only speak for me, a degree of Knowing has arrived due to the shedding of unnecessary personality parts. I've done this over a period of 30 years - the conscious elimination of undesirable traits (which I have had to do to stay sober, so it really wasn't all my own volition). The process of peeling the onion is the single most important thing I've ever done in my life, as I see it.

 

It has been during the peeling process, always, that growth has occurred. The type of growth that sheds the need for belief in any particular religious construct. Once we have reached this milepost, there seems to be a wellspring of information that is at our instant access; perhaps it really is the Akashic records, as some have said. Whatever it is, it is phenomenal. There is no doubt. The answers and the right actions are there, because somehow we have managed to transcend the visible phenomenal world and can see the workings of a dynamic that is invisible to most, but most clear to one who can see its workings in their own life.

 

It is the dynamic, the tendency toward the light, that becomes visible. It is through these eyes that we become able to see and relate one object/person/situation to another. It seems to serve as a sort of template or blueprint that guides and prods us to the highest action.

 

Can anyone else explain this in different words?

I listened within...and one day, I saw something amazing. Reality as I knew it crumbled and my eyes were opened.

 

Belief is something we want to do, put on us from birth like you said...but knowing, there is just that. It cannot be described, only YOU know

 

And knowing is all we need. Once we know ourselves, nothing external can grip us, or harm us.

 

Knowing is freedom. Belief is just imaginary.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Edited May 14, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[manitou]

A wonderful clip, TI - thank you. What a wonderful and common-sensical clip. I loved it when he said "If you don't see God everywhere, be concerned".