Book study leading to mastery

[Simple_Jack]

As a natural consequence of Buddha's teachings (of dependent origination) "I AM" is a state of delusion:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.047.wlsh.html

 

"Monks, those recluses and brahmans who regard the self in various ways, do so in terms of the five groups of clinging, or some of them. Which five?

 

"Here, monks, the uninstructed worldling... regards body as the self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. [similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness.'] So this way of regarding arises: it occurs to him to think 'I am.'[1]

 

"Now when it has occurred to him to think 'I am,' the five (sense-) faculties[2] come into play[3] — the faculties of eye, ear, nose, tongue and body.

 

"Monks, there is mind,[4] there are mind-objects,[5] there is the element of ignorance.[6] The uninstructed worldling, touched by the feeling[7] born of contact with ignorance, thinks 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'things will be,' 'things will not be,'[8] 'things will be embodied,'[9] 'things will be disembodied,' 'things will be conscious,' 'things will be unconscious,' 'things will be neither conscious-nor-unconscious.'[10]

 

"It is just in this way, monks, that the five (sense-) faculties persist. But here, for the well taught Ariyan disciple, ignorance is abandoned and knowledge arises.[11] With the waning of ignorance and the arising of knowledge, he does not come to think 'I am,' 'I am this,' 'things will be,' 'things will not be,' 'things will be embodied,' 'things will be disembodied,' 'things will be conscious,' 'things will be unconscious,' 'things will be neither conscious-nor-unconscious.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html

Then Ven. Khemaka, leaning on his staff, went to the elder monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the elder monks said to him,

"Friend Khemaka, this 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'? Do you say, 'I am form,' or do you say, 'I am something other than form'? Do you say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' or do you say, 'I am something other than consciousness''? This 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?"

 

"Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'

 

"It's just like the scent of a blue, red, or white lotus: If someone were to call it the scent of a petal or the scent of the color or the scent of a filament, would he be speaking correctly?"

 

"No, friend."

 

"Then how would he describe it if he were describing it correctly?"

 

"As the scent of the flower: That's how he would describe it if he were describing it correctly."

...

 

"Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated.

 

"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html

 

"Develop the meditation of the perception of inconstancy. For when you are developing the meditation of the perception of inconstancy, the conceit 'I am' will be abandoned."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.001.than.html

 

"And furthermore, monks, when the monk is established in these five qualities, there are four additional qualities he should develop: He should develop [contemplation of] the unattractive so as to abandon lust. He should develop good will so as to abandon ill will. He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' — Unbinding in the here & now."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html

 

"There are these five clinging-aggregates where a monk should stay, keeping track of arising & passing away (thus): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' As he stays keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, he abandons any conceit that 'I am' with regard to these five clinging-aggregates. This being the case, he discerns, 'I have abandoned any conceit that "I am" with regard to these five clinging-aggregates.' In this way he is alert there."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html

 

"Now, when a disciple of the noble ones discerns fermentation, the origination of fermentation, the cessation of fermentation, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of fermentation in this way, when — having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.2.01.than.html

 

Blissful is solitude for one who's content, who has heard the Dhamma, who sees. Blissful is non-affliction with regard for the world, restraint for living beings. Blissful is dispassion with regard for the world, the overcoming of sensuality. But the subduing of the conceit "I am" [1] — That is truly the ultimate bliss.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

Blanke is looking to pin down the science of the sense of self, that's the sense of self that can cause a person to want to commit suicide if they have it in two places at once. Maybe you haven't had that experience, Tibetan Ice, and maybe you have; I hope not. I sure haven't. But I believe Blanke, when he says that he believes it's an aberration in the way the eyes interact with the vestibular sense and the way the eyes interact wth proprioception.

 

...

 

It is interesting that Max (kunlun) has a practice of bi-location, that is, while sitting, imagine or visualize that you are standing up, or while standing, visualize that you are lying down. The practice introduces tension but also reveals that consciousness is not restricted to inside the body where the five senses are. I haven't done it, but I think that the unresolved tension is a method to teleport one's body to the target location, when one is sufficiently adept.

 

 

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say Nisargadatta stumbled into a connection between freedom of movement in the sense of self and these interactions. For those like myself who are more challenged at including the interplay of proprioception in the sense of location, a "body-position challenge" might be helpful, like the ones described in the Wikipedia article on proprioception, and relaxation in the movement of breath to get the ball rolling.

Sounds like an interesting technique....

 

No, I am not a bliss bunny. The experiences of great bliss, silence, luminosity accompanied with love and the feeling of being everything have occurred with no volitional effort on my part. They've always taken me by surprise, usually after meditation sessions or in moments of deep relaxation, admiration and one time I did nothing and it occurred in the shower.

 

One time, when I was in an elevator, all of a sudden the whole scene of the elevator door became a 3D slice surrounded by rays of white light. I had the very clear perception that reality is a series of 3D slices of perception and whichever one you cling to is what becomes your reality at the time. The only cause I can think of for this experience is that the downward movement of the elevator caused my energetic self to float upwards into the crown or higher central channel. I had been practicing the Red Phoenix just prior to that event...

 

I don't think Nisargadatta chanced upon anything... He had the right technique, it is the same technique that Ramana and others suggest. That is, he had he right technique for his level of development..

 

[Spotless]

My personal experience is YES.

 

Ten years ago, I tried meditation persistently, besides getting some good feelings, I got nothing. As soon as I stop daily meditation, everything went back to what they were.

 

One year ago, I started asking why, then I read a lot of books including Dao De Jing and some Buddhist scriptures. I think deeply. But I rarely meditate, if not never. Now waves after waves of realization hit me. I have got my third eye open, confirmed by an advanced Taoist Alchemy Sifu. I have seen demons. I have my Kundalini going stronger and stronger.

 

Maybe reading and thinking is not for everyone, but it works for me. I have a rather strong science and logical mind.

 

P.S., to avoid misleading people, practice did play a role in my progress. Early last year, after a few months of reading and thinking, I got my Micro Cosmic Orbit opened rather quickly following Mantak Chia's Testical Breathing. After that, the flow of chi and wisdom start to flow stronger and stronger, without doing any practice on regular basis.

 

 

It is such a key thing to realize that we all reside in our bodies and integrate our worlds in a multitude of ways. The astonishing powers of higher mind and the meeting of it with conscious works is evidenced by many brilliant lights left by them for us to ponder.

 

Just as higher emotion can break down a wall of grief as a sudden ocean of love and bliss takes its place leaving no imprint of injustice.

 

 

 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

...

Edited May 19, 2014 by DAO rain TAO

[GrandmasterP]

My personal experience is YES.

 

Ten years ago, I tried meditation persistently, besides getting some good feelings, I got nothing. As soon as I stop daily meditation, everything went back to what they were.

 

One year ago, I started asking why, then I read a lot of books including Dao De Jing and some Buddhist scriptures. I think deeply. But I rarely meditate, if not never. Now waves after waves of realization hit me. I have got my third eye open, confirmed by an advanced Taoist Alchemy Sifu. I have seen demons. I have my Kundalini going stronger and stronger.

 

Maybe reading and thinking is not for everyone, but it works for me. I have a rather strong science and logical mind.

 

P.S., to avoid misleading people, practice did play a role in my progress. Early last year, after a few months of reading and thinking, I got my Micro Cosmic Orbit opened rather quickly following Mantak Chia's Testical Breathing. After that, the flow of chi and wisdom start to flow stronger and stronger, without doing any practice on regular basis.

 

That's interesting.

I wonder if this has anything to do with left brain/ right brain theory?

You sound to be a left brain person from this post.

I'm totally right brain according to the text book descriptions.

Not sure that I completely buy into left and right brain theory in all cases.

For example some recovered stroke victims don't change their approach after one half of their brain is knocked out by a stroke but in general terms maybe there is some left or right brain influence in how we choose to cultivate.

[nononothing]

It is such a key thing to realize that we all reside in our bodies and integrate our worlds in a multitude of ways. The astonishing powers of higher mind and the meeting of it with conscious works is evidenced by many brilliant lights left by them for us to ponder. Just as higher emotion can break down a wall of grief as a sudden ocean of love and bliss takes its place leaving no imprint of injustice.

Thanks Spotless. This is exactly what I feel. In the past, I felt a lot of walls in my head. By reading books, I see glimpse of light over the wall, then I ponder and see the lights become clearer and closer until I am over the wall. The wall is human emotions like grief, fear and laziness.

 

GrandmasterP is right too. I function mainly on left brain. Like Spotless, I have to see the logic to go into action or get any effects. But interestingly, recently I noticed my right brain starts to get stronger, signified by the increasing strength and dexterity in my left limbs and less obsessed with reasoning. I feel there is something deeper inside me rising that I can not explain through reasons. Intuitions are working like miracles. I can "guess" the physical appearance of a stranger after 20 minutes of talk on phone or online with very high accuracy. But I can not prove it here :-) because trying to prove things is a human emotion that negate the power.

Edited May 19, 2014 by nononothing

[doc benway]

I would go you one better and say that what Nisargadatta shares is exactly the practice.

 

I have a different interpretation.

The practice does not exist in a vacuum. The context is important, as is the motivation to persevere in the practice.

The context develops as a result of one's environment, life experience, relationships, teachings, study, etc...

The motivation develops as a result of true renunciation and devotion.

How many folks sit around contemplating "I am" for a while and fail to achieve Nisargadatta's insight?

There is much more to it than any particular method, IMO.

[Simple_Jack]

I feel fortunate to have been exposed to some amazing teachers, and I feel some ire when I hear McMindfulness tauted as Buddhism because of the ignorance such a claim perpetuates with regard to the actual teachings of Gautama the Buddha.

 

'Mindfulness' has been adapted for use in military deployment in the form of Mindfulness Based Mind Fitness Training [http://www.mind-fitness-training.org/research.html] (MMFT); which is why 'mindfulness' in the context of Buddhist practice, should be qualified with the 37 factors of awakening.

[Mark Foote]

Simple_Jack, I confess that my proclivity is toward the Zen of China in the 12th century.

 

Woodward dismisses the chapter on "In-Breathing and Out-Breathing" in Sanyutta Nikaya V, but because truth is stranger than fiction, I find it one of the most insightful with regard to Gautama's teachings. In particular, in that chapter we learn of the suicide of scores of monks while practicing the "meditation on the unlovely" prescribed by Gautama in the passages you quote (Gautama was on personal retreat at the time, according to the chapter- on his return, he gathered the monks and taught the "concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", one particular instance of the setting up of mindfulness but the one that Gautama claimed as his own practice before enlightenment and also as the Tathagatha's way of life).

 

Personally, when the followers of a teacher commit suicide by the score, it emphasizes to me that because someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean that they can describe what they're doing in a way that someone else can then use their instructions to do that something too. I took a class on left-brain/right-brain science, in the '70's, and that was exactly the message that the instructor of that class delivered. It's a left-brain/right-brain thing, and it's something that I think a lot of people are unaware of.

 

Having said that, there is no description in the literature of the world like Gautama's.

 

Yes, the five graspings are identically suffering, and maybe I should make like the scented hamper more in my practice. However, I think there's another meaning in the reflection on impermanence that is more relevant to this discussion:

 

 

“Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present… (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

 

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68)

 

Alrighty, so what's different about that, you might ask? This: "(For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

 

I would put it to you that Nisargadatta's practice of "I am" delivered him to "knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.” A quick check of Nisargadatta on Wikipedia yields this:

 

 

"For Nisargadatta, the Self is not one super-entity which knows independently, regardless of things; there is no such super-entity, noCreator with infinite intellect. God does not exist independently from creation. What does exist is the "total acting" (or functioning) of the Ultimate or Absolute Reality along the infinite varying forms in manifestation. This Absolute Reality is identical to the Self."

 

 

"total acting" (or functioning)"-- "no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body". "Only zazen can do zazen"-- Shunryu Suzuki to Blanche Hartman.

 

That is why I see Nisargadatta's practice of "I am" to be the same induction of relaxed, volition-less activity in the movement of inhalation and exhalation as Gautama's practice of "concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing". Nisargadatta was able to experience the senses involved in the sense of location without identification with that sense of location. See his face before he was born.

[Mark Foote]

Tibetan Ice, very interesting, that-- about practicing with the sense of location that way. I do believe the saying of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas that includes the words "When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner" is similarly about that sense of location, and the freedom of that sense of location to move in the hypnogogic state.

 

"They said to Him: Shall we then, being children,

enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below, and when
you make the male and the female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male and
the female (not) be female, when you make
eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand
in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place
of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,
then shall you enter [the Kingdom]."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

 

"Outwardly cease all involvements, inwardly have no coughing or sighing in the mind-- with your mind like a wall you can enter the Way."

 

(Denkoroku "Transmission of the Light", translated by T. Cleary, 30 pg 111)

 

 

"When you arrive at last at towering up like a mile-high wall, you will finally know that there aren't so many things."

 

("Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu", translated by Cleary & Cleary, 1st ed pg 83.)

Edited May 19, 2014 by Mark Foote

[Spotless]

Thanks Spotless. This is exactly what I feel. In the past, I felt a lot of walls in my head. By reading books, I see glimpse of light over the wall, then I ponder and see the lights become clearer and closer until I am over the wall. The wall is human emotions like grief, fear and laziness.

 

GrandmasterP is right too. I function mainly on left brain. Like Spotless, I have to see the logic to go into action or get any effects. But interestingly, recently I noticed my right brain starts to get stronger, signified by the increasing strength and dexterity in my left limbs and less obsessed with reasoning. I feel there is something deeper inside me rising that I can not explain through reasons. Intuitions are working like miracles. I can "guess" the physical appearance of a stranger after 20 minutes of talk on phone or online with very high accuracy. But I can not prove it here :-) because trying to prove things is a human emotion that negate the power.

Never try to prove anything.

 

One of the finest books I have ever read is "there is a river" about the "sleeping prophet" Edgar Cayce.

If you would like to see the complete futility in playing prove-it read this book. It is also a beautiful book and one that

clearly illustrates that abilities can come from "know where".

Edited May 19, 2014 by Spotless

[GrandmasterP]

Never try to prove anything.

 

One of the finest books I have ever read is "there is a river" about the "sleeping prophet" Edgar Cayce.

If you would like to see the complete futility in playing prove-it read this book. It is also a beautiful book and one that

clearly illustrates that abilities can come from "know where".

 

Still going strong and doing good work...

http://www.edgarcayce.org/

[nononothing]

Thanks Spotless and GrandmasterP.

 

When I realized that I should not try to prove anything, I understand why those masters always deny they have special power, even people have seen them happening. It is the mental state that brings everything. In 1990's in China, there were a few teenagers found with supernatural power, but when they were put into lab to prove it, they failed. Same happened to US an Soviet Union's attempt to use supernatural power to steal classified info from each other. The first couple of attempts succeeded when there were not much expectations for them. When expectations rose, they failed. So the projects were cancelled.

 

In Buddhism and Taoism, it is commonsense that supernatural power can not be abused, otherwise it will lead to mental and even physical damage. I read about people who have third eye open and eventually got blind for many years because he played with it with his friends.

 

It is always said supernatural power is a byproduct that should never be focused on. You know you have it, and that is all.

 

Knowing that we should not try to prove it is not because we are told so or there are negative examples out there, it is because we figure it out ourselves in the process of gaining supernatural power. It only comes when we get rid of the mental motivations to get it and prove it. We also see there is no point in proving it to anyone. If we occasionally want to prove it, it is only a sign of regression that we have to overcome.

 

In the end, we will be able to use it as matter-of-factly like helping short people in supermarket to reach stuff on the top shelf. After all, the so called supernatural power are natural powers that ordinary people have not discovered yet.

 

Edit to add link to Sleeping Prophet by Edgar Cayce

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_cayce05.htm

Edited May 20, 2014 by nononothing

[nononothing]

When I switch my mental state to read my writing from common people's perspective, I can see clearly that they will believe I am hopelessly delusional. My attempt to prove I am right to them will make them believe I am beyond hopelessness and I am crazy. :-) They will start acting against me. But I am very clear about what I known and can do. The pattern I see and the thing I am capable of are so real and predictable, on my current level of course. :-) Cultivation increases intelligence. The difference in intelligence is an insurmountable barrier for people on different levels. There is no point in explaining rocket science to a person who still believes Earth is flat. All attempts are futile. Let other people believe what they believe.

 

On a higher level, people on different intelligence levels are equal as long as they are happy with themselves.

[Simple_Jack]

Simple_Jack, I confess that my proclivity is toward the Zen of China in the 12th century.

 

That means you practice hua tou? Or the 'silent illumination' of the Caodong school?

 

In particular, in that chapter we learn of the suicide of scores of monks while practicing the "meditation on the unlovely" prescribed by Gautama in the passages you quote... Personally, when the followers of a teacher commit suicide by the score, it emphasizes to me that because someone can do something doesn't necessarily mean that they can describe what they're doing in a way that someone else can then use their instructions to do that something too.

 

Another possibility could be that the group of 30 monks (http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/accesstoinsight/html/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.009.than.html) were predisposed towards this kind of behavior, but maybe this sutta should be treated as a cautionary tale, since the practice of asubhabhavana is to develop disenchantment not aversion (e.g. as an antidote to the hindrance of sensory desire (kammacchanda) to enter the rupajhanas).

 

Yes, the five graspings are identically suffering, and maybe I should make like the scented hamper more in my practice. However, I think there's another meaning in the reflection on impermanence that is more relevant to this discussion:

 

“Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present… (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

 

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68)

 

Alrighty, so what's different about that, you might ask? This: "(For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

 

I would put it to you that Nisargadatta's practice of "I am" delivered him to "knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

 

We must have come across two entirely different descriptions of Nisargadatta's experiences from his books because what he describes falls in line with what's described here:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.047.than.html

 

"Monks, whatever contemplatives or brahmans who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. Which five?

...

 

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

 

Nisargadatta was all about his experience of "nothingness" which would very likely be the jhana of nothingness in Buddhism. The "I AM" (self-inquiry) was merely a stepping stone at the start of the journey.

[Mark Foote]

Simple_Jack, I'm just quoting from Wikipedia, when I quote Nisargadatta. Yes, I understand that his practice of "I am" was an initiation. What I'm putting forward is that his mastery, like that of Gautama, concerned the distinction of the senses, including the senses involved in the location of awareness, and the experience of action of the body without volition.

 

Tibetan Ice points to someone's practice of experiencing awareness in two places at once. While the actual experience of being in two places at once is described in Blanke's article as a source of extreme distress to most people, I think the practice Tibetan Ice mentions was actually intended to bring to light the particular senses involved in the experience of location associated with awareness.

 

In my practice, this especially involves the senses Blanke points to, namely the sense of equalibrium and the proprioceptive/kinesthetic/tactile sense. In my experience, it's not really possible to experience awareness as single-pointed and at the same time free to incorporate proprioceptive consciousness without the induction of a hypnogogic state. However, relaxation in the movement of breath naturally induces such a state. I'm sure you're familiar with Gautama's description of the feeling of the first meditative state, but I'll quote it here for those who are not:

 

 

“…as a skilled bath-attendant or (bath-attendant) apprentice, having sprinkled bath-powder into a bronze vessel, might knead it while repeatedly sprinkling it with water until the ball of lather had taken up moisture, was drenched with moisture, suffused with moisture inside and out but without any oozing. Even so… does (a person) saturate, permeate, suffuse this very body with the rapture and joy that are born of aloofness; there is no part of (the) whole body that is not suffused with the rapture and joy born of aloofness. While (such a person) is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute, those memories and aspirations that are worldly are got rid of; by getting rid of them, the mind is inwardly settled, calmed, focused, concentrated.”

 

(MN III 92-93, Pali Text Society edition III pg 132-134)

 

Alrighty, then: I would say the lather ball is an experience of a singularity in the location of awareness, yet at the same time the body is "saturated, permeated, suffused" with rapture and joy born of aloofness, incorporating proprioception and the sense of gravity.

 

Action of the body can take place in the absence of volition; lots of folks have experienced this under hypnosis, not so many when no hypnotist other than the necessity of breath and the unconscious is present. Most people don't consciously exert choice in the movement of breath, but they exert choice in action of the body which affects the movement of breath, and it's in this sense that I understand the qualification of the fourth rupa jhana: the exercise of volition affecting the movement of breath ceases. Habitual activity in the movement of breath ceases.

 

"Only zazen can sit zazen."-- Shunryu Suzuki. "Sometimes zazen gets up and walks around."-- Kobun Chino Otogawa.

 

More than thirty monks. Ten, twenty, as many as thirty monks a day, and Gautama was gone for three weeks:

 

"Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion after half a month's time, said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, why does the community of monks seem so depleted?""

 

Yes, hysteria, no doubt.

 

I like "Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu", and "Instant Zen" (the teachings of Foyan), both translated by one or both of the Cleary brothers. Kobun was my inspiration, so you could say my practice is Soto, but I don't relate to silent illumination so much as "only zazen can sit zazen".

Edited May 21, 2014 by Mark Foote

[Simple_Jack]

Wow, yeah, went back and reread that sutta more carefully.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Mark Foote]

you want to talk about where Soto comes from-- after Ananda replies, "As to that, lord, the Exalted One spoke to the monks in divers ways on the subject of the unlovely... (blah blah blah)... It were a good thing, lord, if the Exalted One would teach some other method so that the order of monks might be established in gnosis". That Ananda, always so understated.

 

So Gautama has Ananda gather the monks, and then Gautama introduces the concentration in in-breathing and out-breathing with these words:

 

 

Monks, this intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. Moreover, it allays evil, unprofitable states that have arisen and makes them vanish in a moment.

 

Just as, monks, in the last month of the hot season the dust and dirt fly up, and then out of due season a great rain cloud lays them and makes them vanish in a moment-- even so, intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too...

 

"something perfect in itself"-- the monks were striving so hard to obtain the deathless state that their meditation on the unlovely unhinged them, so Gautama teaches something that is "perfect in itself", needs no other goal than the practice of "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" itself. Hello, Soto!

 

But as I said, the practice is not taught, even in Soto (but only alluded to). That would be because the induction of a hypnogogic state is never exactly the same twice.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Mark Foote

[GrandmasterP]

Chan's kept that method of no method.

[Rishi Das]

"When you are deluded and full of doubt, even a thousand books of scripture are not enough. When you have realized understanding, even one word is too much."

 

-- Fen Yang

 

 

 

the qualities you bring to your path are more important than the external particulars. books can be a waste of time. they can even obscure what is otherwise simple and organic.

 

and,

 

a single book can prove to be all a person needs to accomplish the Great Work of Awakening.

 

 

know thyself. absent that, any path can be a waste.

 

THIS...

 

As was told to me last night - it's all blatantly obvious, it's all right there, because it's all 'your' garbage.

 

When your ready to get over yourself, you'll find the passion and the courage to do just that. Doesn't happen over night. Based off of my experience, it seems as if it would take a very rare westerner to pick up any form of 'Eastern Scripture' and be able to 'get it.'

 

We all need to find a little humility - we are not the "hero's" of this story - give up your ego and find someone or something that will take you there - what we all want, we will never have.

Edited May 22, 2014 by don_vedo

[Mark Foote]

Chan's kept that method of no method.

 

But a teacher like Yuanwu speaks to both the old and the new:

 

"Go directly to your personal existence in the field of the five clusters of form, sensation, conception, motivational sythesis, and consciousness, turn the light around and reflect back. Your true nature is clear and still and as-is---empty through and accept it."

 

("Zen Letters, The Teachings of Yuanwu", trans. J.C. and T. Cleary, pg 97-98)

 

Moreover, Gautama's instructions were positive and substantive, and he spoke in particulars. The general tendency in the literature and teachings that came afterward was to assume a completed infinity of some kind, and what we know now is that that assumption leads to contradiction and paradox (thanks to all the mathematicians involved in the formalization of proof in the twentieth century). The completed infinity is really a negation, to my way of thinking; it's usually used as a means of rejecting any particular. Ok, so maybe that became expedient in the teaching of Zen (it was called Zen in parts of China as well, apparently), but it's not a basis for the approach that became known as scientific method in the West (while I would say, perhaps the teaching of Gautama is).

 

A lot of us started out assuming that science and Zen are antithetical, perhaps because we were taught that science would have all the answers some day, and when we discovered science will never have all the answers we rushed to embrace a philosophy that seemed to offer all the answers that mattered through an intuitive approach. Oftentimes the statement of that philosophy involved some kind of completed infinity, a Tao, an Uncreated, a Void, which we took as an affirmation of worthlessness of any approach that delved too deeply into particulars, especially particulars of the body or the physical senses.

 

How could the ultimate reality really be concerned with the body, when folks are traveling out of body all around us, that incorporeal self is the one to be concerned with-- after all, the physical body is going to die!

 

With that as a backdrop, it becomes very hard to see the nose in front of my eyes, very difficult to convey how action can take place in the absence of volition and why anyone should care or practice a body-position challenge.

 

“It were better… if the untaught manyfolk approached this body, child of the four great elements, as the self rather than the mind. Why so? Seen is it… how this body, child of the four great elements, persists for a year, persists for two years, persists for three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty years, persists for forty, for fifty years, persists for a hundred years and even longer. But this… that we call thought, that we call mind, that we call consciousness, that arises as one thing, ceases as another, whether by night or by day.”

 

(SN II 93-94, Pali Text Society II pg 66)

 

 

"Jesus said: If the flesh has come into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel; but if the spirit (has come into existence) because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels. But I marvel at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 21 log. 29, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

Edited May 22, 2014 by Mark Foote

[C T]

THIS...

 

As was told to me last night - it's all blatantly obvious, it's all right there, because it's all 'your' garbage.

 

When your ready to get over yourself, you'll find the passion and the courage to do just that. Doesn't happen over night. Based off of my experience, it seems as if it would take a very rare westerner to pick up any form of 'Eastern Scripture' and be able to 'get it.'

 

We all need to find a little humility - we are not the "hero's" of this story - give up your ego and find someone or something that will take you there - what we all want, we will never have.

What is it, dear friend, that 'we' all want? And, where is that 'there' you alluded to that is the desirable destination people need to arrive at?

[Rishi Das]

What is it, dear friend, that 'we' all want? And, where is that 'there' you alluded to that is the desirable destination people need to arrive at?

 

THIS... is exactly why I don't post here anymore - this will be my last post.

 

I'm not in a position to teach - the original post in which you quoted was full of ego to begin with - having the urge to post in the first place should have been my que (now as well).

 

I truly wish you all the best.

[GrandmasterP]

But a teacher like Yuanwu speaks to both the old and the new:

 

"Go directly to your personal existence in the field of the five clusters of form, sensation, conception, motivational sythesis, and consciousness, turn the light around and reflect back. Your true nature is clear and still and as-is---empty through and accept it."

 

("Zen Letters, The Teachings of Yuanwu", trans. J.C. and T. Cleary, pg 97-98)

 

Moreover, Gautama's instructions were positive and substantive, and he spoke in particulars. The general tendency in the literature and teachings that came afterward was to assume a completed infinity of some kind, and what we know now is that that assumption leads to contradiction and paradox (thanks to all the mathematicians involved in the formalization of proof in the twentieth century). The completed infinity is really a negation, to my way of thinking; it's usually used as a means of rejecting any particular. Ok, so maybe that became expedient in the teaching of Zen (it was called Zen in parts of China as well, apparently), but it's not a basis for the approach that became known as scientific method in the West (while I would say, perhaps the teaching of Gautama is).

 

A lot of us started out assuming that science and Zen are antithetical, perhaps because we were taught that science would have all the answers some day, and when we discovered science will never have all the answers we rushed to embrace a philosophy that seemed to offer all the answers that mattered through an intuitive approach. Oftentimes the statement of that philosophy involved some kind of completed infinity, a Tao, an Uncreated, a Void, which we took as an affirmation of worthlessness of any approach that delved too deeply into particulars, especially particulars of the body or the physical senses.

 

How could the ultimate reality really be concerned with the body, when folks are traveling out of body all around us, that incorporeal self is the one to be concerned with-- after all, the physical body is going to die!

 

With that as a backdrop, it becomes very hard to see the nose in front of my eyes, very difficult to convey how action can take place in the absence of volition and why anyone should care or practice a body-position challenge.

 

“It were better… if the untaught manyfolk approached this body, child of the four great elements, as the self rather than the mind. Why so? Seen is it… how this body, child of the four great elements, persists for a year, persists for two years, persists for three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty years, persists for forty, for fifty years, persists for a hundred years and even longer. But this… that we call thought, that we call mind, that we call consciousness, that arises as one thing, ceases as another, whether by night or by day.”

 

(SN II 93-94, Pali Text Society II pg 66)

 

 

"Jesus said: If the flesh has come into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel; but if the spirit (has come into existence) because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels. But I marvel at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 21 log. 29, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

I'm more of a Brad Warner sorta guy as far as texts go.

It's all 'some words', useful if we make it so.

Seen you over there at Hardcore Zen now and again too Mark.

Respect!

Excellent posts you do.

[Mark Foote]

GrandmasterP, thank you. For me, learning to sit the traditional "body-posture challenge" was a long process of experimentation and study, even to be able to sit once a day for 37 minutes without busting my knees (seems like that's about my interval of late).

 

The last time I saw Kobun Chino Otogawa was the tail end of a seven-day sitting at Jikoji in the Santa Cruz Mountains early this millennia, and Kobun was completing the third of three seven-day sesshins. He said, "if I seem a little crazier than usual, that's why". In response to a question, he said he never had pain or numbness in the lotus.

 

I can sit once a day in the lotus for about 40 minutes, usually without pain or numbness, at least at home. I am constantly relearning everything I know, and yet the most important piece of the puzzle for me has been waking up and falling asleep through my sense of where I am and the freedom of that sense of where I am to move.

 

The rest is me coming to accept that it could be that simple, but apparently that's my path! Ha ha!

Edited May 23, 2014 by Mark Foote