Thoughts on Wu Wei

[dust]

Dusty...

You had caused harm to man B. That was not so Wu Wei....

 

Yeah.. then after that I realized that I should not have interfered

[Marblehead]

Yeah, sometimes it is very hard to know what the right thing to do is. Sometimes better to do nothing.

[ChiDragon]

Let's go back to the baby was being drown on the river. Under the famous Taoist principle of Wu Wei, should the baby be saved....??? Why or why not....???

Edited December 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Don't interfere. Swim, baby, swim!

[ChiDragon]

Don't interfere. Swim, baby, swim!

 

You mean: "Drown, baby drown!"

 

I see! So, after all this talk! You still haven't updated your concept about Wu Wei.

 

PS....

Sigh...!!! So, not saving the baby is very Taoist Taoish to you. The concept of non interference is more significant than saving a human life. I must say you are a real Taoist, MH.

Edited December 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hey, it's your baby, not mine. You save it.

[ChiDragon]

Hey, it's your baby, not mine. You save it.

 

It's not mind baby neither but I'll save it. Based on the definition of Wu Wei. Do nothing to harm the baby. The question is the baby was being harmed. If yes, I will do something instead of nothing to be sure that the baby was not being harmed. The keyword, here, is "harm". The first priority of Wu Wei is prevent anything from being harmed. I don't how difficult is for someone to grasp this simple fundamental Taoist concept.

[Marblehead]

But Chidragon, I wasn't causing the baby harm. I am innocent. Maybe the baby intended to commit suicide by drowning. Had I interfered I then would have caused the baby harm.

 

And don't go too far with the "do no harm" else I might feel guilty about eating eggs in the morning thinking that I have caused harm to the potential for that egg to become a baby chicken.

[dawei]

And don't go too far with the "do no harm" else

 

That's why Wu Wei is NOT about external issues but internal ones.

[Marblehead]

That's why Wu Wei is NOT about external issues but internal ones.

Valid point. I have nothing to add to it at the moment.

[ChiDragon]

But Chidragon, I wasn't causing the baby harm. I am innocent. Maybe the baby intended to commit suicide by drowning. Had I interfered I then would have caused the baby harm.

 

And don't go too far with the "do no harm" else I might feel guilty about eating eggs in the morning thinking that I have caused harm to the potential for that egg to become a baby chicken.

 

Even though you did not cause harm to the baby. However, you did see harm was done to the baby.

 

Okay, you didn't violate the concept of Wu Wei but you watched harm was done to the baby. Very good.

 

I remember there was a case in a bar somewhere in the states. A man was raping a girl on a pool table. All the guys around were watching and encouraging the incidence. Nobody had stopped it nor call the police. I heard that the spectators were arrested and charged for being Wu Wei in Taoist terms.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Okay, you didn't violate the concept of Wu Wei but you watched harm was done to the baby. Very good.

I was observing the processes of nature.

 

I remember there was a case in a bar somewhere in the states. A man was raping a girl on a pool table. All the guys around were watching and encouraging the incidence. Nobody had stopped it nor call the police. I heard that the spectators were arrested and charged for being Wu Wei in Taoist terms.

 

Ouch! Now there's a law against being Wu Wei?

 

The more laws a nation has the more criminals it will have.

 

(Yes, I am taking an extreme position in this discussion just for different perspectives.)

 

Yes, save the baby because that is the right thing to do. But fry the chicken because raw chicken doesn't taste good and it is unhealthy.

 

Which goose should we eat? The one that doesn't make any noise.

 

Why? Because geese were used as watchdogs. A goose making noise when a stranger came around alerted the owner.

 

But then, what about the goose that couldn't make any sounds? Useless it was. What ever happened with being useless in order to preserve your life?

[9th]

The story commences with the journey of young ibn Tahir, who is, according to his family's wish, intending to join the Alamut garrison. There, he is appointed to the squad of the most valiant soldiers, named the fedai. Fedai are expected to obey orders without demur and their life forfeit if necessary. During their demanding training, they come to be convinced that they shall go to heaven immediately after their death if they die in the line of duty.

 

Hassan managed to achieve such level of obedience by deceiving his soldiers; he gave them drugs (hashish) to numb them and afterwards ordered that they be carried into the gardens behind the fortress—which were made into a simulacrum of heaven, including houris. Therefore, fedayin believe that Allah has given Hassan the power to send anybody into the Heaven for a certain period. Moreover, some of the fedayin fall in love with houris, and Hassan unscrupulously uses that to his advantage.

 

Meanwhile, the Seljuk army besieges Alamut. Some of the soldiers are captured and Hassan decides to demonstrate his power to them. He orders a pair of fedayin (Yusuf and Suleiman) to kill themselves; Suleiman by stabbing himself, Yusuf by jumping off a tower. They gladly fulfill their master's order since they believe that they will soon rejoice with their beloved in heaven. After the siege, Hassan orders ibn Tahir to go and kill the grand vizier of the Seljuk sultan Nizam al-Mulk. Hassan wants to take revenge for al-Mulk's treachery against him long ago. Ibn Tahir stabs the vizier, but, before he passes away, the vizier reveals the truth of Hassan's deceptions to his murderer. Ibn Tahir decides to return to Alamut and kill Hassan. When ibn Tahir returns, Hassan receives him and also reveals him his true motto:

 

"Nothing is an absolute reality, all is permitted."

[Marblehead]

Great story. Pretty much still the truth.

 

"Nothing is an absolute reality, all is permitted."

This statement, however, is just as misleading as the lies told by Hassan.

 

"All is NOT permitted." (My understanding.)

 

The lies must not be permitted. Or at least destroyed when found out.

[dawei]

Great story. Pretty much still the truth.

This statement, however, is just as misleading as the lies told by Hassan.

 

"All is NOT permitted." (My understanding.)

 

The lies must not be permitted. Or at least destroyed when found out.

 

My Medical Qigong master had a mantra: "allow".. which is saying the same as "all is permitted"...

 

This is the Great Way...

 

Anything less would put a fence around what is accomplished by the Great Way.

 

When you choose to do on the physical level with lies, etc... is your local fence.

 

Only need to ask: Who build the local fence

[Marblehead]

My Medical Qigong master had a mantra: "allow".. which is saying the same as "all is permitted"...

 

This is the Great Way...

 

Anything less would put a fence around what is accomplished by the Great Way.

 

When you choose to do on the physical level with lies, etc... is your local fence.

 

Only need to ask: Who build the local fence

Sure, with the Way of Tao all (all that is possible at any point in time) is permitted. Otherwise it could not happen.

 

In my life all is not permitted. Even by myself. Yes, I have set the limits and built the fence. On my side of the fence I do what I wish to do (but still all is not permitted). On your side of the fence I am sure the rules would similarly apply.

 

If all were permitted I could sit idly by and watch the child drown in the river. Hey, Tao permitted it to happen. Who am I to suggest my opinions are of more value than the workings of Tao?

[FmAm]

Sure, with the Way of Tao all (all that is possible at any point in time) is permitted. Otherwise it could not happen.

 

In my life all is not permitted. Even by myself. Yes, I have set the limits and built the fence. On my side of the fence I do what I wish to do (but still all is not permitted). On your side of the fence I am sure the rules would similarly apply.

 

If all were permitted I could sit idly by and watch the child drown in the river. Hey, Tao permitted it to happen. Who am I to suggest my opinions are of more value than the workings of Tao?

All is permitted in your life. What happens, are those limits you have set and fences you have built. What happens, is permitted everywhere. No escape from that freedom. (I don't know if this was exactly what you meant.)

Edited January 17, 2015 by FmAm

[Marblehead]

All is permitted in your life. What happens, are those limits you have set and fences you have built. What happens, is permitted everywhere. No escape from that freedom. (I don't know if this was exactly what you meant.)

I have no idea what I meant. I was just responding.

 

But I still hold to the understanding that part of "wu wei" is doing what needs be done; nothing more, nothing less. This would include actively removing resistance as opposed to take an alternate route of least resistance.

[dawei]

But I still hold to the understanding that part of "wu wei" is doing what needs be done; nothing more, nothing less. This would include actively removing resistance as opposed to take an alternate route of least resistance.

 

I would suggest that is the small, inner subset of the local mind being engaged with the environment.

 

IMO, It is contained within the energy bubble and then that is within the light energy bubble.

 

It is not quite Dante's seven storey mountain but there are levels/layers to fully integrate the Way of wu-wei.

[Marblehead]

I would suggest that is the small, inner subset of the local mind being engaged with the environment.

 

IMO, It is contained within the energy bubble and then that is within the light energy bubble.

 

It is not quite Dante's seven storey mountain but there are levels/layers to fully integrate the Way of wu-wei.

I would have you know that I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

You need to keep it simple when talking with me. Sometimes I am very, very slow.

[FmAm]

There are two Masters sitting together on the river bank. They both see a child drowning. Master1 jumps into the water, swims to the child and rescues him. Master2 just sits idly without being concerned in any way.

 

After the incident Masters continue their sitting together on the river bank. A short conversation takes place. They notice that what happened was that Master1 saved the child, while Master2 just yawned on the river bank.

 

They see the river flowing, without anyone ever steering the flow.

Edited January 17, 2015 by FmAm

[Marblehead]

Well, Master2 did the right thing. Why get all wet when Master1 was attending to what needed be done?

 

Now Master1 has this child he must take care of. No more sitting on the bank of the river for him.

[dawei]

I would have you know that I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

You need to keep it simple when talking with me. Sometimes I am very, very slow.

 

Think ripples in a pond...

 

When the rock hits the water, the point of impact is the awareness of the water that something has connected; it responds with a localized action to absorb the rock but it propagates waves (expands).

 

Sometimes our mind might see the ripples as separate concentric circles but in fact they are all part of the original awareness and connection. As part of that propagation, the further the ripples move the more they spread this energy outward.

 

Ultimately, why is water responding this way?

 

We have a local understanding of the physical world but ultimately, it is the energy in the system and the light which sparked the whole thing. These latter have propagated outward but we tend to do is simply explain everything in terms of the physical form and action we now see.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I had a rock. I throwed it into the pond. It goes "Plunck". Water is displaced. The energy from my arm into the energy of the rock into the energy of the water ripples in the pond.

 

Yes, we see the effect of the energy but we don't see the energy.

 

Beware of Dark Energy. It is thought to be 72% of the known universe.

 

So, yeah, that's all cause and effect though.

 

But you are right, we don't talk about the energy that brought about all those effects. We can't, really. That would be like talking about Tao prior to any manifestations.

 

I don't know where wu wei went though.

[dawei]

Synchronicity, Duality and Immortality in Daoist Thought

Rachel See

Sometimes the concept of wu-wei is interpreted as the necessity for non-action. Far from advocating nonaction, it is the direction to be supple and flexible-to rely on de and an alignment with the synchronous movements of the cosmos to produce spontaneous action. First we must recognize the limitations of our human distinctions, then we must accept that continuing to adhere to them causes a disruption in the structure through which qi should flow freely. Wu-wei is a relationship between release and action where we find the “paradoxical way of allowing the most effective and perfect action to occur.”

 

To achieve emptiness and the ability to act with wu-wei a person must learn to severe the attachments that are held to sensory images. The senses and our sensory experiences are only fleeting and impermanent transmutations of qi. The nature of qi is movement, passing through the various phases as the aspects of yin and yang strive for balance. The dynamic nature of qi gives us being from non-being, but it also means that all things are impermanent and forever changing. Our attachments to the transitory sensory perceptions fill our consciousness. Qi declines with sensory attachment. As the sensation that generated attachment continues along the synchronous pattern of transmutations, our qi will travel with it.