Thoughts on Wu Wei

[FmAm]

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

 

Why does Shen Dao think we should give up guiding ourselves by shared moral prescriptions? His stoic attitude and some of his slogans suggest that like the Stoics, he was a fatalist. However Shen Dao's argument has no predictive capacity or law-like basis. It is simply logical determinism: “what will be will be.” The account above also has no hint of any concept of free will, but Shen Dao does advocate a parallel to giving up moral responsibility. We should not make shi-fei_{this-not this} judgments. Consequently, he should not be saying that we should follow the great dao, because that would be to shi_this:right whatever actually happens. He avoids this inconsistency and thus is not committed to the Stoic view that the natural/actual course of events is rational or good. It simply happens.

Edited January 18, 2015 by FmAm

[FmAm]

The Master stays behind; that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things; that is why she is one with them. Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled. (tr. S. Mitchell, 1988, from Chapter 7)

The Master does nothing, yet he leaves nothing undone. (tr. S. Mitchell, 1988, from Chapter 38)

The Master arrives without leaving, sees the light without looking, achieves without doing a thing. (tr. S. Mitchell, 1988, from Chapter 47)

 

I know, Lord, that a man's way of life is not his own; no one who walks determines his own steps. (Bible, Jeremiah 10:23)

But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God. (Bible, John 3:21)

 

Different traditions, many similarities.

[Michael Sternbach]

Think ripples in a pond...

 

When the rock hits the water, the point of impact is the awareness of the water that something has connected; it responds with a localized action to absorb the rock but it propagates waves (expands).

 

Hmm... What if the shit hits the fan?

[Marblehead]

 

Synchronicity, Duality and Immortality in Daoist Thought

Rachel See

Okay. I have no serious problem with the first quote..

 

The second quote is problematic for me though. In the state referred to, I see a total loss of awareness. This is fine if we are in a safe and secure environment. But out in the world, we must pay attention to the input from our senses. Sure, non-attachment is good in most cases; we are able to keep up with the processes of time/space and the manifest. However, conditions will present themselves such that we must concentrate on something so that we can respond when necessary.

[Marblehead]

Hey FmAm,

 

To the first quote: In the state of wu wei are remain aware of what is happening around us. This is because sometimes we need to get out of the way of the natural flow of things.

 

 

 

To the two quotes in the second post: I actually don't buy any of that stuff. Remember that I hold to the concepts of free will and choice. We can create our own future.

 

And to constantly remain behind makes one nothing more than a herd animal. And being detached from all things is the perfect time for the tiger to pounce. The tiger is not detached.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Hmm... What if the shit hits the fan?

Duck.

[FmAm]

Hey FmAm,

 

To the first quote: In the state of wu wei are remain aware of what is happening around us. This is because sometimes we need to get out of the way of the natural flow of things.

I would say that in the state of wu wei one is aware of what is happening "inside" us and "around" us. And whatever is happening, is the natural flow. How could there be someone opposing the natural flow?

[Marblehead]

I would say that in the state of wu wei one is aware of what is happening "inside" us and "around" us. And whatever is happening, is the natural flow. How could there be someone opposing the natural flow?

Good point, your question. But with awareness we would be able to do our own "natural flowing".

[Michael Sternbach]

Good point, your question. But with awareness we would be able to do our own "natural flowing".

 

You mean, flowing with our own nature?

[Marblehead]

You mean, flowing with our own nature?

Yep. That's perzackly what I mean.

[FmAm]

To the two quotes in the second post: I actually don't buy any of that stuff. Remember that I hold to the concepts of free will and choice. We can create our own future.

 

And to constantly remain behind makes one nothing more than a herd animal. And being detached from all things is the perfect time for the tiger to pounce. The tiger is not detached.

Detachment doesn't imply passivity. The tiger is detached and yet very awake.

 

I'm not trying to sell you anything. I was just trying to offer you infinite and eternal freedom instead of free will. Nothing more (see how modest and high-minded I am?). But it's your own choice.

Edited January 18, 2015 by FmAm

[Marblehead]

Detachment doesn't imply passivity. The tiger is detached and yet very awake.

 

I'm not trying to sell you anything. I was just trying to offer you infinite and eternal freedom instead of free will. Nothing more (see how humble and high-minded I am?). But it's your own choice.

Okay, I appreciate your offer. Ah!, infinite and eternal freedom! Wow! I doubt I could handle that. I need some limits in my life.

 

Yes, indeed, you are of the highest high-mended persona.

 

Well, of course it's my choice. Hehehe.

[dawei]

Okay. I have no serious problem with the first quote..

 

The second quote is problematic for me though. In the state referred to, I see a total loss of awareness. This is fine if we are in a safe and secure environment. But out in the world, we must pay attention to the input from our senses. Sure, non-attachment is good in most cases; we are able to keep up with the processes of time/space and the manifest. However, conditions will present themselves such that we must concentrate on something so that we can respond when necessary.

 

Loss of [mental] awareness based on distinctions and the gain of energetic awareness based on the whole.

 

What you probably can't really grasp is that it is a different kind of awareness which arises whereby your actually more in tune with the thing-behind-the-thing.

 

As has been said in other threads: One can talk theoretically all day but until you actually develop it, it is meaningless on some level.

[Marblehead]

Well, I am well known for missing the point of what someone has said.

 

I will go back and read it again to see what happens. Things have changed since I read it the first time.

[Marblehead]

Well, a second reading didn't help. My problem is with the first sentence. I don't believe I have ever stated that while in the state of wu wei we are mentally attaching to the awareness offered by the senses. What I have suggested is that while in the state of wu wei we are an observer - doing nothing, clinging to nothing, but fully aware of what is going on around us, and fully capable of responding to any condition that needs attending to. My Chi is ever-present even though it is rarely centered (concentrated) except for when I am inspired to respond to external conditions.

 

So basically, what I am saying is that there is no attachment to sensory input when not required to respond to conditions, therefore no severing is needed.

[dawei]

Well, a second reading didn't help. My problem is with the first sentence. I don't believe I have ever stated that while in the state of wu wei we are mentally attaching to the awareness offered by the senses. What I have suggested is that while in the state of wu wei we are an observer - doing nothing, clinging to nothing, but fully aware of what is going on around us, and fully capable of responding to any condition that needs attending to.

 

Senses... observer... IMO, this is mentally attached to the sense of observation.

 

Fully aware: How? Through what means, observing?

 

My Chi is ever-present even though it is rarely centered (concentrated) except for when I am inspired to respond to external conditions.

 

Inspired to respond based on what? observing?

 

So basically, what I am saying is that there is no attachment to sensory input when not required to respond to conditions, therefore no severing is needed.

 

Observing is a sensory input... that you link this to whether you are required to respond or not is based on what? A mental decision?

[Marblehead]

Senses... observer... IMO, this is mentally attached to the sense of observation.

Well, let's see; I don't do magic and I don't have ESP or any of those other mythical powers so, yeah, requiring sensory input is the only way I can observe.

Fully aware: How? Through what means, observing?

Yes, observing with the five senses.

 

Inspired to respond based on what? observing?

The inspiration comes from within. Sometimes logically rationalized, othertimes intuitionally.

Observing is a sensory input... that you link this to whether you are required to respond or not is based on what? A mental decision?

Both my conscious and unconscious mind. When the shit hits the fan I intuitionally know that I am supposed to duck.

[shanlung]

My thoughts on wuwei.

As likely to be wrong as others are right.

After all, I am the Idiot here.

 

http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html

 

Might give you a laugh though.

 

Idiot on WuWei

 

 

[Marblehead]

Oh, I think I could be wu wei there.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

My kung fu/qigong/meditation/Taoist philosophy teacher, who himself studied at a Taoist temple for fourteen years, taught me that the Western interpretation of wu wei is flawed. The western view of it is flawed by its lack of what he felt is the actual pragmatism of it.

 

While translating it as "without actions" is technically correct, a better interpretation would be "non-interference".

 

 

 

If you have thoughts about it, you're doing it wrong. 

 

 

Thoughts are the smallest and most subtle form(s) of interference with reality.

The less one thinks, the less one interacts and thus the less one interferes.

[Marblehead]

If you have thoughts about it, you're doing it wrong. 

 

 

Thoughts are the smallest and most subtle form(s) of interference with reality.

The less one thinks, the less one interacts and thus the less one interferes.

Now that's funny.  You of all people!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Now that's funny.  You of all people!

I think you are implying something.

 

Oh hey look a squirrel!

 

 

Meet me in the chat room if you want to duke it out face to face.... er.... sorta.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan

[Marblehead]

I think you are implying something.

 

Oh hey look a squirrel!

 

 

Meet me in the chat room if you want to duke it out face to face.... er.... sorta.

Hehehe.  Just messing with you.

 

I have squirrels around my place all the time, especially in the back.

 

Beware of duking it out with me.  I don't fight fair, I fight to win.

 

But I do agree with you, constantly worrying our mind is not wu wei.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Marblehead

[Captain Mar-Vell]

,,,

Busy doin' nuthin'.

 

It's my favourite thing.

...

[Marblehead]

,,,

Busy doin' nuthin'.

 

It's my favourite thing.

...

Well, that's part way to wu wei but not all the way yet.