Thoughts on Wu Wei

[Student]

My kung fu/qigong/meditation/Taoist philosophy teacher, who himself studied at a Taoist temple for fourteen years, taught me that the Western interpretation of wu wei is flawed. The western view of it is flawed by its lack of what he felt is the actual pragmatism of it.

 

While translating it as "without actions" is technically correct, a better interpretation would be "non-interference". Basically, we humans interfere in things we should not and often create our own problems by sticking our noses in things. It hinges on one's own ability to recognize his or her own limitations. For example, if I don't recognize my path would interfere with something like a bullet, I'm interfering with the bullet's path and I am getting shot. This is the consequence for interfering with the bullet. Wu wei, or non-interference, would give me the foresight to not interfere with the bullet's path. I know to avoid places where people are more likely to threaten me with a gun.

To quote my teacher, "You don't stick your dick in the beehive." Chances are, most people will get stung by a bee in their life. But only an idiot sticks their dick in the beehive. Your penis is now interfering with that beehive. See what I mean? People who are excessively nosey, butting in on others’ business, those people interfere. The consequence for that is often that people dislike you; you might make someone angry or violent.

Another example of non-interference could be something like green house gasses. Humans don't recognize the limitations of non-sustainable fuel sources, so we are interfering with the planet by exacerbating climate change. The consequences of our interference with the planet are severe. This concept of understanding limitations to avoid interfering with things that end poorly for you can be applied to pretty much anything. Enlightenment isn't very complex, if you understand your own limitations well enough to live harmoniously, you'll probably have a peaceful and fulfilling life.

 

Seeing the world clearly, utilizing Wu Wei, and living harmoniously: these are footsteps on the path to enlightenment. That’s another thing Westerners have an exotic impression of; enlightenment. Strip away the esoteric, it is pragmatic. Life has its ups and downs, but if you can transition well through the cycle of reversions between the ups and downs, you achieve a peaceful life much easier. To use a metaphor, compare the rhythmic swinging of a pendulum when released gently to the same pendulum swatted about dissonantly.

 

So do we see things as clearly as we think we do? Of course not. Our human brains are limited, but studying Taoism helps you see the world a little more clearly than we would otherwise. We are not omniscient. In my earlier example with the gun, we could know that some places are more likely to see gun violence than others, but even if I was a hermit in the wilderness I might still get shot some day. But I’m less likely to get shot if I use wu wei to prepare myself a little better at avoiding conflict.

[Marblehead]

Well, I will agree with your teacher.

 

We have had nurmerous discussion regarding wu wei and I think Chidragon offered us perhaps the best definition I have ever heard. "Unnatural action" was the key to the concept if I remember correctly.

 

Yes, we are allowed to move out of the way of the bullet. Yes, we are allowed to avoid going to places where one might draw a weapon. Yes, we are allowed to disarm someone who is about to do harm with a weapon. This is wu wei too.

[Andrei]

Yes, we are allowed to disarm someone who is about to do harm with a weapon. This is wu wei too.

 

That's wei wu wei.

[Marblehead]

That's wei wu wei.

Yeah, but I don't gotta' go wei wei.

[manitou]

Excellent post, Student -

 

The usage of non-interference rather than not-doing does seem better, at least in my mind. Many people are put off by the concept of 'not-doing' as though it were a sign of laziness or something. The concept of non-interference is to watch and stay on top of a dynamic, allowing it to play out without our interference. I think the sage would normally do the least amount of interference in any situation in order to enable the situation to conclude as naturally as possible, thereby allowing it to follow the Dao of things.

 

The sage also knows to nip it all in the bud. To handle the small before it becomes large. This must be factored in as well.

 

As I think about it, the emotion that causes us to interfere would generally be fear, I would think. Fear that something might not come out 'correctly', in our opinions. But what do we really know of a situation, or another's motivations, or another's fears? Do we really know what it is that another actually needs? Probably not. Allowing things to Happen as they Happen seems to be the best way to act in concert with everything.

 

And yet, when the action does come our way, when a decision is required, when a word must be spoken - kindness, tolerance, and taking the highest path must be the way we relate to the situation, in order to enable the wu wei and watch it fall into place.

 

To live in enlightenment is to have peace of heart - to Know who we really are, and to live consciously within the everyday illusion. All so very mysterious; and yet, when discovered, it makes life all so very much easier.

Edited May 16, 2014 by manitou

[Student]

Thanks for the feedback, manitou! I do agree with you that the sage should also know to "nip it all in the bud" as you said. Wu Wei is a good way to go about life- in that you're not interfering with others. You solve problems by knowing what is a problem and what isn't a problem. But if someone or something is interfering with you, now they are the ones going against wu wei, and they will have to deal with the consequences of interfering with you. The sage doesn't start conflict, but the sage is not afraid to end conflict either.

[manitou]

I think much can be learned from triangulating the 3 Treasures that the sage possesses, from the DDJ..

 

Each translation is going to say something different, but I suspect that if you got to the bottom of each translator's idea of the 3 Treasures, they would all say about the same thing. I think it's only possible for us to truly know wu-wei when we ourselves have developed the same 3 treasures.

 

For purposes here, I'll use the 3 treasures as enumerated by translator Lin Yutang - I have his translation pretty well internalized. His idea of the 3 treasures are the following:

 

1. Never too much - to me, this goes directly to balance in all things. it avoids the urge to hoard for ourselves and disregard the needs of others. I think that in order to master wu-wei, that this character trait must be developed.

 

2. Never be the First - this is an affront to our original ego that we were born with. Is it possible to train ourselves to seek the middle way, without having to push ourselves out front to satisfy our own ego and our own character deficiencies? Have we gotten to the point where we no longer need to prove to others, or to ourselves, that we are superior to others.

 

3. Love - the sage keeps this at the forefront of his mind. He knows that all others, regardless of how despicable, are merely the other half of himself. That he has no place to judge himself superior and others lesser - that we are all One and as such, all deserve the benefit of the cohesive dynamic of the universe, the tendency toward love, toward light, toward truth, toward kindness, toward Oneness.

 

 

I think that when the above traits have been developed (or more likely, uncovered within ourselves by removing all the faulty dross that we've been told throughout our lives) that wu-wei can be lived on a daily basis. On a moment to moment basis, if we can stay in the mindset and not get phased by the seeming happenings and dynamics around us.

 

Intentional inner work is the key, IMO. A casual acknowledgement of the 3 Treasures probably isn't sufficient to further development. I believe they must be developed within ourselves if we truly want the fruits of the DDJ.

Edited May 17, 2014 by manitou

[dawei]

The usage of non-interference rather than not-doing does seem better, at least in my mind. Many people are put off by the concept of 'not-doing' as though it were a sign of laziness or something. The concept of non-interference is to watch and stay on top of a dynamic, allowing it to play out without our interference. I think the sage would normally do the least amount of interference in any situation in order to enable the situation to conclude as naturally as possible, thereby allowing it to follow the Dao of things.

 

Not doing and no action are incomplete phrases; I usually like to paren them as: no [unnatural] action or not [forced or intentional or interfering] doing.

 

But there is something incomplete about just thinking we get out of the way as the method of non-interference. In fact, in my mind, it is rather that one is ONE with the flow. One does not get out of the way as much as becomes the Way.

 

And I still find something beyond the physical in this regard and I think we find this by transcending the physical sense and we start to get a glimpse of the real power on a more energetic level. Even our intuition and instincts are probably more like this.

 

Otherwise, the entire idea of returning to the ONE has no meaning

[Marblehead]

In fact, in my mind, it is rather that one is ONE with the flow. One does not get out of the way as much as becomes the Way.

I just wanted to repeat this and emphasize the second sentence.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Liking this thread very much, thanks Student!

 

Agreeing about the three treasures, really resonated with the idea of one and another one being two halves of a whole, a One.

 

From here on, rambling:

Its like when somebody needs to get past you in a crowded area. If you're into oneness you probably already maintain awareness of the lack of space, so that if someone touched you to beg for gangway, you're already moving before they say "excuse me". You might respond in a reflex fashion to the intention of the touch but also, you know already it might happen, its a factor of the whole you are part of imo, its tight, people need to get through here.

 

Also, "paths" are created in crowds, some people are nodes or crossroads it seems, they're just positioned correctly, or better yet, their disposition, what they signal to others, is safe passage, they pose less obstruction than others. Space around them is perhaps freer. Everyone is part of the situation, some are more aware on a fuller level of the dynamics of the situation. Doesnt have to be concious though.

Some might consider these people weak or easily spotted as a pathetic someone of submissive attitude, others might just recognize their tendency to ease social situations on, oiling them.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Marblehead]

Hi Rocky,

 

Your last paragraph reminded me of when I go grocery shopping and I am in someone's way or they are in mine. Most times I will joke about it, other times I will just say, "Excuse me."

 

The "Excuse me." is used mostly when a person has their cart on one side of the isle and they are looking at stuff on the other side totally blocking passage for everyone in that isle.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hi Rocky,

 

Your last paragraph reminded me of when I go grocery shopping and I am in someone's way or they are in mine. Most times I will joke about it, other times I will just say, "Excuse me."

 

The "Excuse me." is used mostly when a person has their cart on one side of the isle and they are looking at stuff on the other side totally blocking passage for everyone in that isle.

 

 

Many people are genuinely surprised that there are other people in the world.

[manitou]

Not doing and no action are incomplete phrases; I usually like to paren them as: no [unnatural] action or not [forced or intentional or interfering] doing.

 

But there is something incomplete about just thinking we get out of the way as the method of non-interference. In fact, in my mind, it is rather that one is ONE with the flow. One does not get out of the way as much as becomes the Way.

 

And I still find something beyond the physical in this regard and I think we find this by transcending the physical sense and we start to get a glimpse of the real power on a more energetic level. Even our intuition and instincts are probably more like this.

 

Otherwise, the entire idea of returning to the ONE has no meaning

 

 

i couldn't agree more. If this has been done, an expanded mind results. It is from this perspective that the dynamics of the situation (or personality, in a healing sense) are seen. The flow is all One, and one is able to see the flow in its true form.

[manitou]

Dawei - another thought. This thing that we're trying to describe also involves mastering ego and getting it out of the way to see the Flow. Combining this with 'taking the highest action' at every decision also ensures that the Flow will be uninterrupted.

 

This is not to say that we have nothing to say about anything, though. The sorcerer can Set His Intent at the beginning of a dynamic and use the above method to effect change. it's just that Time isn't under our control and we must use very distant eyes to see the dynamic in all its glory.

 

Does this match your experience?

[beyonder]

"The thirty spokes unite in the one nave; but it is on the empty space (for the axle), that the use of the wheel depends. Clay is fashioned into vessels; but it is on their empty hollowness, that their use depends. The door and windows are cut out (from the walls) to form an apartment; but it is on the empty space (within), that its use depends.

 

Therefore, what has a (positive) existence serves for profitable adaptation, and what has not that for (actual) usefulness."

 

-Laozi, "Daodejing", chapter 11

http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing11.php

 

I don't think wu wei is an intellectual concept. Rather, it's a mental state:

 

"Whatever you do as your Way, if you are obsessed with it, or think that this alone is of importance to you, then it is not the Way. It is when you have nothing in your chest that you are on the Way. Whatever you do, if you do it with nothing in your chest, it works out easily.

This is like the way everything reflects clearly in a mirror precisely because of the formless clarity of the mirror's reflectiveness. The heart of those on the Way is like a mirror, empty and clear, being mindless and yet not failing to accomplish anything.

This is the "normal mind". Someone who does everything with this normal mind is called an adept."

-Yagyu Munenori, Hereditary Book on the Art of War

 

How does one attain a normal mind? Well:

 

"THE RIGHT MIND AND THE CONFUSED MIND

 

The Right Mind is the mind that does not remain in one place. It is the mind that stretches throughout the entire body and self.

 

The Confused Mind is the mind that, thinking something over, congeals in one place.

 

When the Right Mind congeals and settles in one place, it becomes what is called the Confused Mind. When the Right Mind is lost, it is lacking in function here and there. For this reason, it is important not to lose it.

 

In not remaining in one place, the Right Mind is like water. The Confused Mind is like ice, and ice is unable to wash hands or head. When ice is melted, it becomes water and flows everywhere, and it can wash the hands, the feet or anything else.

 

If the mind congeals in one place and remains with one thing, it is like frozen water and is unable to be used freely: ice that can wash neither hands nor feet. When the mind is melted and is used like water, extending throughout the body, it can be sent wherever one wants to send it.

 

This is the Right Mind.

 

THE MIND OF THE EXISTENT MIND AND THE MIND OF NO-MIND

 

The Existent Mind is the same as the Confused Mind and is literally read as the "mind that exists." It is the mind that thinks in one direction, regardless of subject. When there is an object of thought in the mind, discrimination and thoughts will arise. Thus it is known as the Existent Mind.

 

The No-Mind is the same as the Right Mind. It neither congeals nor fixes itself in one place. It is called No-Mind when the mind has neither discrimination nor thought but wanders about the entire body and extends throughout the entire self.

 

The No-Mind is placed nowhere. Yet it is not like wood or stone. Where there is no stopping place, it is called No-Mind. When it stops, there is something in the mind. When there is nothing in the mind, it is called the mind of No-Mind. It is also called No-Mind-No-Thought.

 

When this No-Mind has been well developed, the mind does not stop with one thing nor does it lack anyone thing. It is like water overflowing and exists within itself. It appears appropriately when facing a time of need.

 

The mind that becomes fixed and stops in one place does not function freely. Similarly, the wheels of a cart go around because they are not rigidly in place. If they were to stick tight, they would not go around. The mind is also something that does not function if it becomes attached to a single situation.

 

If there is some thought within the mind, though you listen to the words spoken by another, you will not really be able to hear him. This is because your mind has stopped with your own thoughts.

 

If your mind leans in the direction of these thoughts, though you listen, you will not hear; and though you look, you will not see. This is because there is something in your mind. What is there is thought. If you are able to remove this thing that is there, your mind will become No-Mind, it will function when needed, and it will be appropriate to its use.

 

The mind that thinks about removing what is within it will by the very act be occupied. If one will not think about it, the mind will remove these thoughts by itself and of itself become No-Mind.

 

If one always approaches his mind in this way, at a later date it will suddenly come to this condition by itself. If one tries to achieve this suddenly, it will never get there.

 

An old poem says:

 

To think, "I will not think"--

This, too, is something in one's thoughts.

Simply do not think

About not thinking at all."

-Takuan Soho, "The Unfettered Mind"

http://www.american-buddha.com/unfettered.myster.htm

 

Just some thoughts.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Non interference is one aspect of Wu Wei. Non contrivance,natural spontaneity doing what needs to be done. Wu Wei contains doing as well as non doing

 

The way of nature does without contrivance, agenda, something to be gained or lost. In the english language we would need more than one word to describe wu wei

 

Seeing the unseen is confusing in english just as non doing is confusing, the descriptions are a fragment of the whole and meant to be an absolute as in can not be its opposite

 

This is the difference between polar complete worldview of the east and the absolute fragment world view of the west. The absolute fragment philosophy Greek/ western) THINK that things are independent and not related to its opposite. The polar complete philosophy (Taoist) observes reality, opposites are a harmonious whole.

 

This creates the communication breakdown between east and west. One system is life giving the other is destructive, pairing opposites as enemies instead of long lost lovers.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Wu Ming Jen

[Daeluin]

Yesterday I posted over in this thread about WuWei, but mostly in reference to how it applies to Internal Alchemy, as suggested by the Tao Te Ching. There it would seem the terms we call "doing" and "non-doing" apply specifically to how to cultivate our way back to living in the moment as healthy, whole, non-interfering life forms. They are vehicles to attain wholeness one moves beyond the necessity of their use as one moves to higher levels.

 

Human kind has evolved so as to make choices about what we do, rather than simply living in the moment like most life-forms. This has given us an intellectual advantage and we've demonstrated many uses for our intellect.

 

However, deciding not to live in the moment, we actually step out of living in the moment. Our ability to store information from our perception literally gets in the way of the purity and natural operation of our awareness. The more we transform flowing and freely transforming energy into the attached energy of stored thoughts, the more what is naturally bright and spontaneous becomes clouded and stagnant, until it completely separates and divides and separates.

 

Liu Yiming describes this process very simply in Solving Symbolic Language.

 

When we decide to go back to living naturally, being one with the current of the Tao, we reverse the process of our conditioning until we are pure and unpolluted enough to act with keenly honed intuitions rather than knowledge. Acting based on knowledge is a crude process. We must separate from the flow of life in order to learn he knowledge, and when we apply it we are only listening to the mechanical churnings of facts and reasons inside our minds, which prevents us from being fully connected to the situation we are attempting to act within. When we hone our intuition, we empty out our minds so that we may be open to everything happening around us... and then we listen to where we feel our heart tugging, and we know how to act. The more we practice this, the better we get at discerning where the tugs are and what we need to do.

 

I read a study done on humans mimicking the radar of bats by tongue clicking, human echolocation. Surprisingly it doesn't take very long to attain results. The same is true for the intuition - just needs practice, and one must be willing to surrender the bias of the ego.

 

Perhaps WuWei is both a method leading the way towards cultivating wholeness, but also a method to understand the principle to avoid losing our wholeness. To replenish our depleted life-force-of-existence (ming) we practice intentionally, "doing", until our "ming" is full again, and then we turn around the light of the mind in order to prevent the mind from applying it's desire, which would again deplete the ming, but also by turning the light of the mind inward, we cultivate the xing (open-awareness-of-spirit) back to completeness by use of emptiness - that is we stop learning, but start unlearning, dissolving blockages formed by thought patterns, even as we embrace the spontaneous, natural ability of xing to intuit the entirety of the ever present knowledge of heaven. When we can simply unite with all and feel the knowledge of all, what point in attaching to bits and pieces of it when this only blocks our connection to the whole of it? We don't have to forget everything - it's just like food - many of us simply eat more than we need, or think and consume media more than we spend simply being aware without thinking.

 

In Inner Alchemy, one applies this process of returning to what is simple, natural, whole, healthy, and fully aware while one keeps intention and attention held upon the root of life and death, the root of heaven and earth, where in stillness one may slip between the edges into what is real. But even as one moves beyond the need to maintain WuWei in order to maintain one's unity, I believe one should still respect the importance of this principle, and if possible use it to an even greater extent to foster a powerful healing effect.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Daeluin

[Marblehead]

 

I don't think wu wei is an intellectual concept. Rather, it's a mental state:

Isn't it rooted even deeper than this?

[Stosh]

No

[Marblehead]

No

I didn't ask you. Hush up please. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

That's wei wu wei.

But it is done in the state of wu wei. We need not leave the state of wu wei in order to take action as long as it is a "natural" action of the actor.

[Stosh]

I didn't ask you. Hush up please. Hehehe.

Ok, but Id like to know who his teacher is or what lineage he is from, since the bit attributed to him , ,,well ,,I like it , its pragmatic , rational, mundane reasonable , doable etc.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Ok, but Id like to know who his teacher is or what lineage he is from, since the bit attributed to him , ,,well ,,I like it , its pragmatic , rational, mundane reasonable , doable etc.

I apologize for that outburst. I was feeling a little frisky this morning.

 

Yes, I too would like to hear Beyonder go a little deeper with his understanding.

 

But I do agree with him that wu wei is not an intellectual concept.

[Stosh]

I apologize for that outburst. I was feeling a little frisky this morning.

 

Yes, I too would like to hear Beyonder go a little deeper with his understanding.

 

But I do agree with him that wu wei is not an intellectual concept.

Oh thats all right good buddy , noworries , I can see that theres free-floating feistiness around.

I hope Student and beyonder continue with more posts. ( Work is slow here today)

[ChiDragon]

I apologize for that outburst. I was feeling a little frisky this morning.

 

Yes, I too would like to hear Beyonder go a little deeper with his understanding.

 

But I do agree with him that wu wei is not an intellectual concept.

 

The whole TTC was about the concept of Wu Wei. How can it not be an intellectual concept after we had a big discussion about that. Come on, you two-headed snake........