Thoughts on Wu Wei

[dawei]

As an intellectual concept, it is empty and void of meaning.

 

It is an outcome/result.

 

And as such, if one has truly left behind the physical and mental attachments to the physical realm, it reveals the energetic connection which directs our being. It is a step in the reversion process. The next step would be spiritually based.

 

As such, Wu Wei is understood as the inner communication with the eternal.

 

Meaning: If your just communicating with the physical world then this is just the false self talking to the false world of things.

 

One can cultivate that if they want.

[Marblehead]

 

The whole TTC was about the concept of Wu Wei. How can it not be an intellectual concept after we had a big discussion about that. Come on, you two-headed snake........

Well, yes, I am being two-headed about this. That is because while in the state of wu wei nothing can be said about it. We can speak to the concept only when we are not in that state.

 

Speaking about it is intellectualizing, sure, but being in it is beyond intellectualizing.

[Marblehead]

As an intellectual concept, it is empty and void of meaning.

 

It is an outcome/result.

 

And as such, if one has truly left behind the physical and mental attachments to the physical realm, it reveals the energetic connection which directs our being. It is a step in the reversion process. The next step would be spiritually based.

 

As such, Wu Wei is understood as the inner communication with the eternal.

 

Meaning: If your just communicating with the physical world then this is just the false self talking to the false world of things.

 

One can cultivate that if they want.

Yeah, you had a hard time expressing it too. Hehehe.

 

I would disagree with your "... the false self talking to the false world of things ..." though. Self talking (intentional thought) and the world of things are manifestations of Tao as well. But sure, they are of the Yo realm, not of the Wu.

[ChiDragon]

........ That is because while in the state of wu wei nothing can be said about it. We can speak to the concept only when we are not in that state.

 

Speaking about it is intellectualizing, sure, but being in it is beyond intellectualizing.

 

Why nothing can be said about it....???. Did we cause any harm by any action......???

 

Speaking about it and being in it are intellectualizing rather than beyond intellectualizing. It is because one cannot go beyond one's own ability. IMHO.

[dawei]

But sure, they are of the Yo realm, not of the Wu.

 

What is the origin and source of the Yo realm?

 

So, the Yo Realm is but a shadow of what?

 

And of course this is rhetorical as I mean the answer to both are Wu...

 

Do... do you live in Yo (shadow) and call it the source?

 

Wu wei is about the source... not the shadow.

[Marblehead]

Why nothing can be said about it....???. Did we cause any harm by any action......???

 

Speaking about it and being in it are intellectualizing rather than beyond intellectualizing. It is because one cannot go beyond one's own ability. IMHO.

That is a fair arguement. My mind won't speak to it now though. Maybe later.

[Marblehead]

What is the origin and source of the Yo realm?

 

So, the Yo Realm is but a shadow of what?

 

And of course this is rhetorical as I mean the answer to both are Wu...

 

Do... do you live in Yo (shadow) and call it the source?

 

Wu wei is about the source... not the shadow.

Wu wei is about the source and the shadow. Of course the answer to both your question is Wu. Afterall, Yo was born out of Wu.

 

But I have never called Yo "shadow" because that implies that it is not real and it truely is real. Just as real as Wu.

 

And truth be told, being a Materialist I most often live in Yo. But it is by no means a shadow.

[dawei]

Wu wei is about the source and the shadow. Of course the answer to both your question is Wu. Afterall, Yo was born out of Wu.

 

But I have never called Yo "shadow" because that implies that it is not real and it truely is real. Just as real as Wu.

 

And truth be told, being a Materialist I most often live in Yo. But it is by no means a shadow.

 

As a materialist, you are concerned about what is real.

 

Why not spend a day throwing out any idea of real and assume it is not real and seek what is real... Better men have spend a lifetime contemplating it.... meaning better than you and me !

[Marblehead]

As a materialist, you are concerned about what is real.

 

Why not spend a day throwing out any idea of real and assume it is not real and seek what is real... Better men have spend a lifetime contemplating it.... meaning better than you and me !

Ha! I have better things to do with my life. Like taking care of the real things in my life.

 

BTW Descartes tried that and after a few years was right back from where he started and those few years were just wasted life.

[Marblehead]

Why nothing can be said about it....???. Did we cause any harm by any action......???

 

Speaking about it and being in it are intellectualizing rather than beyond intellectualizing. It is because one cannot go beyond one's own ability. IMHO.

Gathering my thoughts in order to respond to this has been a challenge. That is because when I made that post my mind was wandering within the concepts of both "wu wei" and the states of "wu and yo". I'm still not sure how this is going to come out but here goes:

 

Yes, I still accept your definition of "wu wei". However, I include "unnecessary harm" and "without alterior intent" in my understanding of the concept.

 

Where I messed up was when I suggested there was no intellectualizing while in the state of "wu wei" when my mind was thinking "state of wu", which, to me, is a different concept. In the state of "wu" we do not intellectualize; we live spontaneously without rational thought. It is when we move out of the state of "wu" into the state of "yo" that we intellectualize.

 

Anyhow, I can't think of anything else to add at the moment but hopefully you will understand where I was coming from in that post.

[Stosh]

If one exceeded "better men" by obviating thier waste of time, then they would be the wiser-better ,

even more so if they were comfortable and correct with their assessment of what reality was,

for then they would have just solved the question outright.

 

The idea of "better men" is illusory anyway , one is what one is , does what what one does , and resolves what one resolves.

I know smart folks that screw up the usage of a coffee machine. That persist in unhappy marriages , that perpetuate ideas of their own ineptitude. This is why the life errors are said to be due to illusion , not stupidity.

[Brian]

Wu wei is about the source and the shadow. Of course the answer to both your question is Wu. Afterall, Yo was born out of Wu.

 

But I have never called Yo "shadow" because that implies that it is not real and it truely is real. Just as real as Wu.

 

And truth be told, being a Materialist I most often live in Yo. But it is by no means a shadow.

As an aside, a shadow is real.

 

You can see it and feel it and measure it and photograph it and track its comings & goings.

 

What more do you want?

 

 

[Marblehead]

As an aside, a shadow is real.

 

You can see it and feel it and measure it and photograph it and track its comings & goings.

 

What more do you want?

 

 

I want to be able to put it in my pocket, go to the store and buy something with it.

[Brian]

Try that with a fart and then tell me whether you think they're are real...

 

 

[Marblehead]

Good come-back.

 

But at least the fart will clear the lane so I can check out faster.

[Brian]

Good come-back.

 

But at least the fart will clear the lane so I can check out faster.

So will a sufficiently menacing shadow...

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Shadows of clowns, mimes or Godzilla, for instance, might be quite effective in this situation.

 

 

Not all at once, though -- that would just be silly.

[Marblehead]

Hard to get those kind of effects in a WalMart store.

[Marblehead]

I stopped being afraid of my shadow when I ran out of breath from trying to run away from it.

[beyonder]

Isn't it rooted even deeper than this?

Does that really matter? I could answer, though:

 

"In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced, (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. It is like the closing of the beak and silencing the singing (of a bird). That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course)."

-Zhuangzi

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/heaven-and-earth

 

Or:

 

"The unconscious is an unglimpsable completeness of all subliminal psychic factors, a "total exhibition" of potential nature. It constitutes the entire disposition from which consciousness takes fragments from time to time. Now if consciousness is emptied as far as possible of its contents, the latter will fall into a state (at least a transitory state) of unconsciousness. This displacement ensues as a rule in Zen through the fact of the energy of the conscious being withdrawn from the contents and transferred either to the conception of emptiness or to the koan. As the two last-named must be stable, the succession of images is also abolished, and with it the energy which maintains the kinetic of the conscious. The amount of energy that is saved goes over to the unconscious, and reinforces its natural supply up to a certain maximum. This increases the readiness of the unconscious contents to break through to the conscious. Since the emptying and the closing down of the conscious is no easy matter, a special training and an indefinitely long period of time is necessary to produce that maximum of tension which leads to the final break-through of unconscious contents into the conscious."

 

-CG Jung, foreword to "Introduction to Zen Buddhism" (Grove Press, New York, 1964), p. 22

 

But because the eventual goal is an unobstructed mind, such notions can potentially be problematic for the person trying to achieve that state:

 

"Forty-Four

This is the nature of the unenlightened mind: The sense organs, which are limited in scope and ability, randomly gather information. This partial information is arranged into judgments, which are based on previous judgments, which are usually based on someone else's foolish ideas. These false concepts and ideas are then stored in a highly selective memory system. Distortion upon distortion: the mental energy flows constantly through contorted and inappropriate channels, and the more one uses the mind, the more confused one becomes. To eliminate the vexation ofthe mind, it doesn't help to do something; this only reinforces the mind's mechanics. Dissolving the mind is instead a matter of non-doing: Simply avoid becoming attached to what you see and think. Relinquish the notion that you are separated from the all-knowing mind of the universe. Then you can recover your original pure insight and see through all illusions. Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything.

Remember: because clarity and enlightenment are within your own nature, they are regained without moving an inch.

 

Forty-Five

If you correct your mind, the rest of your life will rail into place. This is true because the mind is the governing aspect of a human life. If the river flows clearly and cleanly through the proper channel, all will be well along its banks. The Integral Way depends on decreasing, not increasing: To correct your mind, rely on not doing. Stop thinking and clinging to complications; keep your mind detached and whole. Eliminate mental muddiness and obscurity; keep your mind crystal clear. Avoid daydreaming and allow your pure original insight to emerge. Quiet your emotions and abide in serenity. Don't go crazy with the worship of idols, images, and ideas; this is like putting a new head on top of the head you already have. Remember: if you can cease all restless activity, your integral nature will appear."

 

-Hua Hu Ching

 

Again, just some thoughts.

Edited August 13, 2014 by beyonder

[Marblehead]

 

Does that really matter? I could answer, though:

 

...

 

Again, just some thoughts.

That didn't help but thanks much for the effort.

 

I try to imagine things others imagine but continually fail at it.

 

Wu wei is a state of our physical essence. It really has nothing to do with a spirit that cannot be identified or a mind that cannot be found. It is about being at peace with one's self and one's environment. Responding only when there is something that matters that needs to be given attention to.

 

As Chidragon pointed out, we can talk about it. But really, the talking does nothing. Until we find inner peace there will be no "wu wei" in our life. That's because there will always be something to attend to.

 

No, we don't need to go into the subconscious to find it. It's not there. That's where all the crazies live.

[beyonder]

As Chidragon pointed out, we can talk about it. But really, the talking does nothing. Until we find inner peace there will be no "wu wei" in our life. That's because there will always be something to attend to.

Well, you asked me a question. I answered. Now you're telling me that talking does nothing?

No, we don't need to go into the subconscious to find it. It's not there. That's where all the crazies live.

The unconscious is just a region in a psychodynamic model of consciousness. In itself, it has nothing to do with being "crazy", as you put it. Believe what you want though.

Edited August 13, 2014 by beyonder

[Marblehead]

Well, you asked me a question. I answered. Now you're telling me that talking does nothing?

Sorry I made it sound like that. Wasn't intentional. But it is true, talking doesn't do it; we have to live it.

 

 

The unconscious is just a region in a psychodynamic model of consciousness. In itself, it has nothing to do with being "crazy", as you put it. Believe what you want though.

I'm with you here, really. It's just that when we have wierd dreams or witness wierd illusions it is from the unconscious that these dreams and illusions arise out of. Our conscious brain is normally more rational.

[Michael Sternbach]

Chuang Tzu, on 22 May 338 BC - 14:37, said:

The man in whom Tao acts without impediment harms no other being by his actions yet he does not know himself to be "kind", to be "gentle". . . . (He) does not bother with his own interests and does not despise others who do. He does not struggle to make money and does not make a virtue of poverty. He goes his way without relying on others and does not pride himself on walking alone. While he does not follow the crowd he won't complain of those who do. Rank and reward make no appeal to him; disgrace and shame do not deter him. He is not always looking for right and wrong, always deciding "Yes" or "No." The ancients said, therefore: The man of Tao remains unknown. Perfect virtue produces nothing. "No-Self" is "True-Self". And the greatest man is Nobody.

 

This is a really good explanation of Wu Wei, I'd say...

[manitou]

I think the reason we have to go into the subconscious to 'find' the Wu Wei is because unless we've received inner clarification, we will always be reacting as a result of ego. The inner alchemy of removing the unwanted characteristics of our shadow self is the very thing that makes acting within the sphere of wu wei possible. Without that, it's not wu wei - it might be setting a high standard for your actions, but this is not the same as inner digging and removing the inner carbunkles so that the lens is clear.

The person who is capable of wu wei is capable of 360 degrees of action, because he doesn't 'have to respond to his egoic reactions'. Without this clarity, we are left with only 180 degrees of action - it will always be limited to what our ego and our inner character defects will allow us to do.

 

The Sage has compassion at his core, and at some point this is spontaneous. He does not act kindly for thanks; he does not act kindly for recognition; he does not even act kindly for his own approval. Rather, it has become a part of him. And because the compassion is now a part of him, unthinkingly, his 'action' or 'non-action' will always be aligned with the Dao. With the grand Order that underlies everything. The grand Order, the Dao, (even the Manitou, to the native American) is the underlying Order that always tends toward the light. Towards love, which is the end result; Love is the purpose as well, although it's sure hard to see at times.

 

But trust that it's there. Because the Sage is capable of wu-wei, his timing is impeccable; he lets the dynamics come to him. Other times, because his vision is far and impeccable, he nips things in the bud. He can take the smallest of actions when he Sets His Intent to bring about a change for the better in any situation, then leave it alone until it rotates back into him.

 

Love is in his bones at this point. This, to me, is wu-wei. To me, it is truly a subtle type of sorcery that is available for all of us at the end of the inner shadow work. Because We are the Creator, the point of the evolutionary spear that walks, talks, thinks. When we achieve clarity, it was as the result of years of work, not just reading the right book. But we have developed that Third Eye that they talk about - that particular vision that is extraordinary and can see dynamics that others are unable to see.

 

Years of work.