Thoughts on Wu Wei

[Songtsan]

Try this experiment:

 

Just be standing there. Relax all intent to hold yourself up, relax all efferent signals. Watch your body drop part way, then suddenly, something catches you on the way down, 'protects' you from hurting your self. Don't interfere with this protective process. This non interference is something to cultivate. On more refined levels, this intelligent process can do so much more than this.

 

Some part of this is the bodies natural reflex actions due to muscle spindles, Golgi tendon reflex, but beyond that has to do with greater kan and li (full blown kundalini awakening). Those with this available have an intelligent force which becomes a more cunning and sagacious doer than ones own self could possibly be - a being which has eons of experience and wisdom which can be relied upon to auto-correct in ways unapproachable by smaller more localized minds.

 

It is as if the bodymind unit that 'you' inhabit is co-managed.

 

By recognizing that this is a 'group project,' you see that you can learn to not-interfere with the groupmind collective managing the 'corporation' that you are part of. Perhaps you might consider yourself the CEO of this corporation? Maybe! But no corporation could effectively operate with just one member.

 

Recognizing that one does not solely own the vehicle that one inhabits is the step towards unification with That.

 

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I've been studying myself while being off balanced lately, as an experiment. Everytime i was about to fall over i found that the sooner i just stopped trying to fiddle with my face muscles and do jazz hands (people slowly keeling over do this a lot), directed the force to my supporting foot and found myself standing in a position that to my mind was impossible to keep upright in just tenths of a second earlier, giving me ample time to use head or leg to counterbalnce the klutzery i was doing before.

Relax and go with it and i find its not very hard to stand there. If it were on a ledge wherefrom falling to a dismembering death were the scene im pretty sure it'd be not as easy to quit flailing for balance and instead just balance myself.

Its taken a lot of stumbling and crashing into doorframes but really. Non action promotes listening.full body listening gives you data about the parameters of your immediate situation.

But then i know very little about basically anything (not being coy, the great and vast holes in my data concerning everything are very real) so im probably just operating offa that old bias and prejudice i call knowledge.

 

And yet when pain is inflicted on by say stubbing your foot on furniture, in so many cases we can only experience the pain "located" there. Their other foot is just fine so it falls out of perspective, you're not listening to that are you? Youre not registering your face either and it is going to feel all tired and weird because of all the cringing. What good is the cringing doing?

 

Sorry im off ranting again... Been away too long, got excited. Good thread this one!

Edited September 9, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Marblehead]

Hi Rocky,

 

I know about balance as oftentimes I will get up from a seated position quickly and within a fraction of a second I will be dizzy and losing my balance. I have learned to immediately stop when this happens and bend over so my head is just below waist level. It takes only a few seconds for me to regain my balance and mental clarity.

 

I don't know what your condition is and it's not necessary to talk about. But yes, wu wei is a state of clarity and awareness. We should do whatever is necessary in order to attain and maintain clarity and awareness.

[Brian]

Taking a beta-blocker, MH?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hey Marble!

 

No condition other than an old broken foot that healed weirdly and possibly adhd, but i just seize the opportunity when im about to fall over. Also, going with the force (yielding) it when it happens, just to se how far it can be pushed without faceplanting.

 

Yours sounds like not so very fun and games though my friend. Another friend of mine had that exact same thing, she had low blood pressure and iron deficiency but i hear it can be caused by other stuff too.

 

 

Well yes, awareness and clarity, but the relaxation part helps, also with emotive issues. Its easier to respond naturally and appropriate to the situation and its involved components when one is relaxed. I can be aware and clear, but tense up and im all over defensive mode.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Marblehead]

Taking a beta-blocker, MH?

Hehehe. No, I actually haven't taken any of those things in over two months. My situation is a result of hardened arteries in my neck so that my brain blood pressure adjusts slowly to changes in vertical elevation. Nothing can be done about it. I just have to learn to live with it. I'm doing pretty well.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I'm doing pretty well.

 

Thats a relief

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

At the risk of missing out on some comments and making an ass of myself for near reading all four pages,

here is some stuff about wuwei

 

Wu Wei is first mentioned in Chapter two of DDJ,

where laozi says

是以聖人處無為之事，行不言之教；萬物作焉而不辭，生而不有。為而不恃，功成而弗居。夫唯弗居，是以不去。

It is the saint who abstains himself to follow non action, he continues on without using words to teach; all living things continue and never say good bye. life can't be had, because it also can't be held, work and success don't stay, he who does not stay seems never to leave.

 

some definitions

為: wei: reason, action, motive

 

無為: wu wei: non action, non motive.

為無為: wei wu wei: action without action, action without motive.

 

Daoism believes in the pre and post heaven arrangement of practice - so wu wei is the foundational point of practice that must be achieved before going from post to pre heaven.

post heaven is day to day action, motivation, activity - pre heaven is the place beyond silence.

wu wei, non action is the neutral point between action and action without action.

the real goal of daoism is to achive wei wu wei, or to be able to do things in a naturally constructive and positive way. the true yang state so to speak.

[Marblehead]

Well, HoneyEater, you are probably closer to it than my understanding is but I still see wei wu wei as action with motive.

 

And that would make wu wei (living) without motive. (That isn't right but what the heck.)

 

See? I'm still working on these concepts.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

the biggest problem with inerpreting ddj is that the characters are prone to change in context depending upon how you read them.

just like the book of changes, your understanding of the ddj will change each time you read it and think about it.

wu can usually just be considered as meaning no or not,

wei has lots of meanings, but basically, indicates an action or way of holding oneself.

In Chinese you can see quite often people saying things like "wei shenme," which means "why", but "shenme" by itself simply means what. so way can also be to indicate a reason for something. Wu wei could also be without reason.

Classical Chinese as a contextual nightmare for translators, as there is so much possibility within each individual character.

each and every passage of the ddj can have tens if not hundreds of readings. There are at least 500 annotations of ddj throughout Chinese history. pour tha tone over for a while!!!

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

but if we essentially break it down by saying, Laozi was essentially holistic, positive, and focused on the betterment of society, then we can get closer to using the concept of De to understand his message.

[Marblehead]

pour tha tone over for a while!!!

And therefore, because of that, I am actually glad that I cannot read Chinese. I already have problems getting comfortable with the concepts using only the English language. I would never make a final decision if I had to do the translations myself.

[Marblehead]

but if we essentially break it down by saying, Laozi was essentially holistic, positive, and focused on the betterment of society, then we can get closer to using the concept of De to understand his message.

Exactly. And then along comes Chuang Tzu who starts asking questions. Hehehe.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

\. I would never make a final decision if I had to do the translations myself.

thought that was the whole point?

[Marblehead]

thought that was the whole point?

Belly laughs.

 

You may well be right. If we know all the answers there is no more excitement in life. Something coming together in our mind is such a beautiful experience.

[dawei]

some definitions

為: wei: reason, action, motive

 

無為: wu wei: non action, non motive.

 

為無為: wei wu wei: action without action, action without motive.

 

Daoism believes in the pre and post heaven arrangement of practice - so wu wei is the foundational point of practice that must be achieved before going from post to pre heaven.

post heaven is day to day action, motivation, activity - pre heaven is the place beyond silence.

wu wei, non action is the neutral point between action and action without action.

the real goal of daoism is to achive wei wu wei, or to be able to do things in a naturally constructive and positive way. the true yang state so to speak.

 

We don't practice living life... we simply live life.

 

As Baopuzi pointed out, 'practice' is not natural living; it is forcing a routine on life.

 

I think there is little differentiation between the definitions in the end.

 

為: wei: doing

 

無為: wu wei: non-doing

 

為無為: wei wu wei: doing-non-doing

 

My personal feeling is that for Laozi, he ultimately brings the parts into the whole to show they are all part of the whole. We can divide them up but in the end, Daoism sees the whole.

 

And so I fully agree with the last statement:

the real goal of daoism is to achive wei wu wei, or to be able to do things in a naturally constructive and positive way. the true yang state so to speak.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

gramatically it is a bit more complicated than that.

 

for insteance

埏埴以為器，當其無，有器之用

in this case, wei is related to use,

 

天下皆知美之為美

in this case, it is about knowing a quality of something

 

and so on and so forth.

 

in terms of practice - I defy you to find even one person in Daoism who has never practiced.

although Dao is natural, De is learned- that is why we can use it as a way to learn how to view nature (which of itself is not directly knowable).

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

but i have to say in praise of this forum,

having come over from one of the big internal martial arts places on the net- you folks are very civil and friendly

[Marblehead]

Yeah, we are just kinda' wu wei most of the time.

[ChiDragon]

gramatically it is a bit more complicated than that.

 

for insteance

埏埴以為器，當其無，有器之用

in this case, wei is related to use,

 

天下皆知美之為美

in this case, it is about knowing a quality of something

 

and so on and so forth.

 

in terms of practice - I defy you to find even one person in Daoism who has never practiced.

although Dao is natural, De is learned- that is why we can use it as a way to learn how to view nature (which of itself is not directly knowable).

 

I would say that you knew the multi-meaning of 為(wei) and its usage.

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, we are just kinda' wu wei most of the time.

 

To a non Taoist, it's wu wei most of the time.

To a Taoist, it's wu wei all the time.

[ChiDragon]

At the risk of missing out on some comments and making an ass of myself for near reading all four pages,

here is some stuff about wuwei

 

some definitions

為: wei: reason, action, motive

 

無為: wu wei: non action, non motive.

 

為無為: wei wu wei: action without action, action without motive.

Basic on your definition above, a reasonable interpretation would be as follows:

為無為: .......for(為) the reason of being wu wei, therefore......

[Marblehead]

 

To a non Taoist, it's wu wei most of the time.

To a Taoist, it's wu wei all the time.

"Most" is the best I have been able to do so far.

 

Good to see you back.

[dust]

Last year, on the crowded bus home from work, standing and listening to music, someone stamped on my foot. I turned around to see 2 men trading blows. Man A was crouched in the window seat, man B was in the aisle next to me, and man A's wife was in the aisle seat trying to break them up and getting in the crossfire.

 

Eager to help, and man B being right next to me, I pinned his arms to his sides and tried to drag him back -- though there was nowhere to drag him to. This gave man A the opportunity to land a number of free punches to B's face. When I realised I couldn't actually hold them both back, B was getting a bloody nose, and no one else was going to help, I gave up. I turned back around, put my earphones back in, and forgot about them.

 

They must've come to some kind of peace because when I got off the bus man B had gone and the others were sitting back down (a little worse for wear).

 

This is how I first learned the virtue of (direct) non-interference.

[ChiDragon]

Dusty...
You had caused harm to man B. That was not so Wu Wei....