Thoughts on Wu Wei

[RiverSnake]

No thoughts are neccesary.

Edited March 4, 2015 by OldChi

[Marblehead]

No thoughts are neccesary.

On the other hand though, if you hav no idea what you are doing you had better wake up.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

And on yet a third hand, its best to wake up to the fact you have no idea.

... 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Marblehead]

...

And on yet a third hand, its best to wake up to the fact you have no idea.

... 

This is so very true.

 

The first step in the problem solving techniques is to acknowledge that there is a problem.  Aterall, if there is no problem (perspective) then there is no need to solve anything.

[9th]

Wu Wei is the approach of mastery, so there wont be much that can be said in conventional terms, which is why ideas at this level often reach us as poetry or prose, or songs and so on.  Its not a "final" state but rather seems to be the journey proper, in which all that preceded seems only preparatory.  Its an ongoing process, just like life and the rest of the universe.  For example, water will flow through a tree and a reed in much different ways, and the wind will move them differently as well, and so on.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I can't remember if I already posted on this thread, but I want to say that at least in the tradition of the middle school, Wu Wei really actually is a complete embrace of emptiness and total non action.

If you look at the way wu wei works in daoism, you have

 

you wei: tangible action, or intentional action,

wu wei: non action

wu bu wei: intangible non action, or more precisely, action without action.

 

Action without action, at least in the Neidan schools actually means the birth of pre heaven energy created by using non action to temper kan and li in the furnace (dantian).

In this case, wu wei really has to be as non involved as possible.

 

Lu Dongbin said at the start of baizi bei "to cultivate qi, forget to say protect, focus the heart on action without action,"

Huang Yuanji said "hanging freely in emptiness."  This is how you can "go back to the root and return to the origin," (in the words of zhang boduan).

 

At least in the Neidan school, Wu wei has the meaning of adopting non action as a way to cultivate Qi.

[Michael Sternbach]

I can't remember if I already posted on this thread, but I want to say that at least in the tradition of the middle school, Wu Wei really actually is a complete embrace of emptiness and total non action.

If you look at the way wu wei works in daoism, you have

 

you wei: tangible action, or intentional action,

wu wei: non action

wu bu wei: intangible non action, or more precisely, action without action.

 

Action without action, at least in the Neidan schools actually means the birth of pre heaven energy created by using non action to temper kan and li in the furnace (dantian).

In this case, wu wei really has to be as non involved as possible.

 

Lu Dongbin said at the start of baizi bei "to cultivate qi, forget to say protect, focus the heart on action without action,"

Huang Yuanji said "hanging freely in emptiness."  This is how you can "go back to the root and return to the origin," (in the words of zhang boduan).

 

At least in the Neidan school, Wu wei has the meaning of adopting non action as a way to cultivate Qi.

 

I am familiar with the concept of avoiding action as to preserve one's chi. It is obviously a part of the Daoist lore. But so is "action without action" - egoless action, spontaneous action, flow - whatever you call it. I call it wu wei, but according to the terminology you present, it's actually wu bu wei. I wonder, what is wei wu wei then?

[Marblehead]

I still prefer "action without intention", or, if you will, living spontaneously.  But that's just me.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

wei wu wei and wu bu wei have basically the same meaning.

Action without action, or aciton without motive are all analoguous.

The key is the genuine achievement of non action or non motive as a prerequisite for this event to occur.

I know there are many different branches of thought in Daoism, so I can only speak for the parts I have personally researched.

In terms of attaining the genuine movement of energy in the body, the mind first has to be directed to complete silence, non action and stillness.  This is corroborated in many places, even in confucian thought.

Zhu Xi said that Yang is born of yin when it reaches its absolute.  This is the containment of yin within yang.

Incidentally, this is also the meaning when Liezi said "one births two, two birth three, three birth five, five birth seven, seven birth nine and nine returns to one."  This is the nature of the birth of yin and yang in the Yijing and then in later branches of Chinese thought.   The key principle being that the clear change between yin and yang occurs between the qian and kun trigrams, when they extend beyond the point of usefulness and then change into the other.  Things further complicate when we use the ideas of kan and li as the water and fire contained between heaven and earth.

That is why at the start of wu zhen pian, Zhang Boduan uses the analogy of lightening crashing on a stone.  Huang Yuanji later explains this as meaning that when you achieve real pre birth Qi, it will be as though lightening has suddenly crashed on a stone, giving off sparks which are only briefly visible.  The after effect is the full illumination of the body.   This is the moment at which the emptiest, quietest moment of yin changes into yang.

Much of Daoist thinking has been based around ways to maximize Yang energy through cultivating the utmost of stillness.

A common exercise among certain groups is to lie like a corpse and don't allow any part of your body to move.  staying completely still, even in the mind, and enforcing this is enough to get a basic movement of energy in the body.

I met a master in Taiwan who advocated this practice.  He was also able to send qi directly to my du mai meridian and into my head via the jade pillow.  No physical movement was involved on his part (freaky, messed me up for a day or two).

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling here, but my basic point is that wei wu wei is born of genuine wu wei, whether it is non action, non motive, action without action, motive without motive (remember that the wei used is always the same character here), however it is interpreted, if it is good for your practice, it is indeed good!! 

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

made a mistake:  the part about zhu xi, actually the quote should have said "the birth of yang within yin." The true yang and true yin are contained within each other and born of each other  :)

[Marblehead]

made a mistake:

Wasn't the first one ever, was it?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I've had lots of fun in my day, lets put it that way.

[dawei]

wei wu wei and wu bu wei have basically the same meaning.

Action without action, or aciton without motive are all analoguous.

 

I generally agree... there is action... the motivation or intention matters.

 

The key is the genuine achievement of non action or non motive as a prerequisite for this event to occur.

I know there are many different branches of thought in Daoism, so I can only speak for the parts I have personally researched.

In terms of attaining the genuine movement of energy in the body, the mind first has to be directed to complete silence, non action and stillness.  This is corroborated in many places, even in confucian thought.

 

I probably disagree here... Eat when hungry, sleep when tired.  One doesn't need silence or stillness; one just needs to be of one mind with the internal seeing/sensing.    This is much simpler than most portray and children have it the easiest of us all; How many children are silent and still 

[Aaron]

Eat when you're hungry, sleep when you're tired, seek out people when you're lonely, essentially find balance in your life. There is some mysticism involved with wu wei, but a lot of it is common sense. To quote from the surfer world, "go with the flow dude." 

 

Aaron 

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Marblehead]

You Wei ...

Would you, could you, offer us your own definition of "You Wei"?

[Kara_mia]

Wu Wei is the approach of mastery, so there wont be much that can be said in conventional terms, which is why ideas at this level often reach us as poetry or prose, or songs and so on.  Its not a "final" state but rather seems to be the journey proper, in which all that preceded seems only preparatory.  Its an ongoing process, just like life and the rest of the universe.  For example, water will flow through a tree and a reed in much different ways, and the wind will move them differently as well, and so on.

 

I beg to disagree. I agree in that there won't be much that can be said in conventional terms but simply because Wu Wei can neither be understood nor achieved by us, ordinary people. In accordance with doctrine of internal alchemy which lies at the core of the heart of Taoist teaching, Wu Wei refers to a final stage of alchemist transformation - so called " sitting facing the wall for nine years" - and actually is quite understandable why. Wu Wei - is non-action, non-doing. And during the final stage the person himself is sitting without moving for 9 years, thus "performing' non-action and non-doing, while his Yuan Shen or Yang spirit is doing all work. 

[awaken]

If someone want to know Wu-Wei, he need to know the rules of Ying Yang.

 

Or Wu-Wei will become very abstract.

 

The rules of Ying yang are just like the seasons, days and nights.

 

In The Ying yang of cultivation , the process is often misunderstood.

 

We wake up in the morning and sleep at night.

 

The process of cultivation is the same.

 

Yang chi runs in yang and go into Ying .

 

The biggest misunderstanding is Ying.

 

 

 

孔德之容，惟道是從。道之為物，惟恍惟惚。惚兮恍兮，其中有象；恍兮惚兮，其中有物。窈兮冥兮，其中有精；其精甚真，其中有信。自今及古，其名不去，以閱眾甫。吾何以知眾甫之狀哉﹖以此。

 

 

In dao de Jin, it talk about ying with the words 恍惚huan-hu,窈冥 iao-min.

 

If we know the rules of Ying yang in the process of cultivation, we will know how to cultivate in Wu-Wei.

Edited December 11, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

My kung fu/qigong/meditation/Taoist philosophy teacher, who himself studied at a Taoist temple for fourteen years, taught me that the Western interpretation of wu wei is flawed. The western view of it is flawed by its lack of what he felt is the actual pragmatism of it.

 

While translating it as "without actions" is technically correct, a better interpretation would be "non-interference". Basically, we humans interfere in things we should not and often create our own problems by sticking our noses in things. It hinges on one's own ability to recognize his or her own limitations. For example, if I don't recognize my path would interfere with something like a bullet, I'm interfering with the bullet's path and I am getting shot. This is the consequence for interfering with the bullet. Wu wei, or non-interference, would give me the foresight to not interfere with the bullet's path. I know to avoid places where people are more likely to threaten me with a gun.

 

To quote my teacher, "You don't stick your dick in the beehive." Chances are, most people will get stung by a bee in their life. But only an idiot sticks their dick in the beehive. Your penis is now interfering with that beehive. See what I mean? People who are excessively nosey, butting in on others’ business, those people interfere. The consequence for that is often that people dislike you; you might make someone angry or violent.

 

Another example of non-interference could be something like green house gasses. Humans don't recognize the limitations of non-sustainable fuel sources, so we are interfering with the planet by exacerbating climate change. The consequences of our interference with the planet are severe. This concept of understanding limitations to avoid interfering with things that end poorly for you can be applied to pretty much anything. Enlightenment isn't very complex, if you understand your own limitations well enough to live harmoniously, you'll probably have a peaceful and fulfilling life.

 

Seeing the world clearly, utilizing Wu Wei, and living harmoniously: these are footsteps on the path to enlightenment. That’s another thing Westerners have an exotic impression of; enlightenment. Strip away the esoteric, it is pragmatic. Life has its ups and downs, but if you can transition well through the cycle of reversions between the ups and downs, you achieve a peaceful life much easier. To use a metaphor, compare the rhythmic swinging of a pendulum when released gently to the same pendulum swatted about dissonantly.

 

So do we see things as clearly as we think we do? Of course not. Our human brains are limited, but studying Taoism helps you see the world a little more clearly than we would otherwise. We are not omniscient. In my earlier example with the gun, we could know that some places are more likely to see gun violence than others, but even if I was a hermit in the wilderness I might still get shot some day. But I’m less likely to get shot if I use wu wei to prepare myself a little better at avoiding conflict.

non-interference

 

Very good.

 

 

Let's take an example to see what is differences between non-doing and non-interference .

 

Someone sat there for hours and did nothing.

 

He is non-doing.

 

Because he sat too long, his body feel uncomfortable and want to move.

 

But he still forced himself to keep on sitting.

 

He is non-doing but not non-interference.

 

In cultivation, it is similar.

 

When we are cultivating, chi goes around at first.

 

We non-interference and let the chi go its way.

 

Then the chi calm down, we go into Hun-dun.

 

We still non-interference and let us go into Hun-dun.

 

After Hun-dun, we wake up.

 

Before we really wake up , something happen.

 

Tai-ji start -- master hua-uan-ji called it

 

 

But some teachers, they claim theirselves as a "true" teacher, teach their students to interference the cultivation.

 

They force the body stay in chi's world.

 

Go circle in ren-du.

 

Absorb the light

 

They are not non-interference.

 

So their students learned the wrong from them and can not open the emptiness.

 

Without emptiness, without golden dan.

 

The golden light they see in ren-du is called gold-dan.

 

But it is not.

Edited December 11, 2016 by awaken

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Kara_mia]

Hello Kara_mia,

 

So, since Wu-wei cannot be achieved by ordinary people, it means that it can only happen outside the level of existence ruled by Yin and Yang, ordinary people can only see, hear, listen, touch, and feel what has Yin Yang charateristics. The person seems to do nothing in the Human world, yet his Yang spirit is performing Spiritual works in the Dao. Wu or "absence" is the only perceptible feature of the Dao for ordinary people, so it's impossible for us to see what the Yang Shen of an immortal is doing ,Wei.

 

Please, do you see any mistakes here?

 

Thanks!

 

Well, I am not a Teacher or a pro in Taoist alchemy, but I can't see any significant mistakes apart from the last conclusion - I just simply can not comment on that because I don't know. But as for the rest, I agree - since Wu-wei cannot be achieved by ordinary people, it means that ordinary people cannot get outside of the level of existence ruled by Yin and Yang forces, or in other words, ruled by taiji law.

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[MooNiNite]

follow the path in a practical way, but then realize the mystical stuff isnt fake either.