Cause, effect and celibacy

[Nikolai1]

It is a fact that celibacy is associated with high spiritual development. This is usually explained in one of two ways.

 

1 Celibacy as cause.

 

The aspirant is consciously seeking methods to improve himself. He observes the celibacy of the sage, and assumes that emulation will result in the same outcome. He is conscious of a need to be celibate and therefore interprets temptation as a battle of will; the yielding to temptation a failure. Eventually his will dominates,he is steadily celibate, and lives a life of peace.

 

2) Celibacy as effect

 

The aspirant does not identify the celibacy of the saint as a relevant feature of his saintliness. He therefore attaches no spiritual significance to his own sexual needs. Other methods, for example, meditation are consciously followed and struggled with. As his peace and bliss deepens he is left with no need for a transitory sexual thrill. His will to seek out sex has atrophied. He is therefore celibate.

 

Every conceivable spiritual benefit that we strive for, shall also accrue to the person who did not strive.

 

Whatever we do willfully is therefore, also, a quite unnecessary perturbation of spirit.

 

Cause and effect are nothing other than intellectual interpretations of an association. Every technique is followed in error, and it also an error to think that no technique is necessary.

 

This is very hard to understand. We all follow techniques assiduously; and yet the very belief in the technique will create a disturbance of mind that is the very opposite of the goal.

 

The solution to this intolerable dilemma is trust. All we can do is trust that,, whatever we do, whatever wills and desires appear in our lives, realisation will one day be associated with us.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nikolai1

[Rara]

May I ask, how it is "fact"?

[RiverSnake]

I see celibacy simply as a result of shifting the flow of energy in our body upwards. When energy is flowing upward you want to be free of all limitations. When it's flowing downwards you want to get jiggy with it.

 

Identifying with either of these states as a part of your personality and who you are is a trap. There simply two different states of being with different intents and purposes. I think it is important for the individual to develop this flexibility where they can shift between the two without judgement.

 

My 2 cents Peace

Edited May 15, 2014 by OldChi

[Nikolai1]

May I ask, how it is "fact"?

 

Celibacy is just a fact of the realised life, in the same way as wisdom, goodness and joy are.

 

Firstly. purposefully or unpurposefully, the urge for sex is gradually reduced. Sexual pleasure is of the same nature as spiritual joy; therefore as the inner spiritual joy that we carry wherever we go increases, there becomes less need and sense to pursue the same through sex. Sex might still be enjoyed to a certain extent, but the strong motivation for it gets gradually reduced. The same goes for all the other pleasures that come from external things. Something better has been found.

 

Secondly, there is a reduction in the procreative urge. Once the person has become self-realised, there is no need for the search for realisation to be taken up by his offspring. The goal has been acheived, and with that success the need for offspring is eliminated.

 

It is very possible that a person can be highly spiritually developed and still be sexually axctive, but with full realisation the urge for sex will completely vanish. For some people, celibacy comes very early, and they consider it one of their first 'fruits'.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nikolai1

[Spotless]

Celibacy is associated with a number of asceticisms that are associated with higher spirituality, spirituality beyond the more mundane informative religion exposure mediums (church).

 

Asceticisms becomes attractive to a sincere seeker not because "saints do them" but because at a certain point in practice a departure takes shape, a departure from the corporeal. It is not a departure that is necessarily easy but one that constantly confronts those in deep practice or striving to go deeper on many levels:

Society measures us and judges us by our conformity to the typical desires and the fostered lusts that are so well marketed here particularly in the west but certainly in the world at large as well. So one is fighting the self image issues as well as the constant taunt of those one encounters including parents and partners and those we had looked up to.

 

A complete reassessment takes place of everything one may believe in or rely on and in this, corporeal issues are a stake in the ground that we are tethered to.

 

In the original post here Nikolai1 states:

 

"The aspirant does not identify the celibacy of the saint as a relevant feature of his saintliness. He therefore attaches no spiritual significance to his own sexual needs. Other methods, for example, meditation are consciously followed and struggled with. As his peace and bliss deepens he is left with no need for a transitory sexual thrill. His will to seek out sex has atrophied. He is therefore celibate."

 

This appear to be a mental image of what takes place, atrophy is not what takes place:

 

As one struggles into the depths of the "aspirations" of a seeker of the truth some peace and bliss will occasion the journey, but one does not go softly into the final landing. One does not slowly melt and find themselves walking on water.

As progress is made, great new energies come, new insights, a huge expansion of awareness, assuming that one is in good health, the corporeal enticements may lessen somewhat but as a group, they entice the high vitality we have welling up and the high vitality increasingly entices many of those around us.

 

At this point when one turns toward sex it can be at a voracious level with kundalini and light and energies that simply never were available before. If one turns to drink, it may be possible to binge drink without becoming drunk until your body passes out.

Staying up for days, seeing the complete lack of real companionship, the dilemma of truly coming to grips with the utter isolation from the world at large, the magnification of everything is a struggle a deep struggle.

 

No, the desires do not dissipate by atrophy ( though for some the desires may naturally be somewhat low), they dissipate because the are not satisfactory, it becomes increasingly unsatisfactory to be doing nearly anything that is not driving to the walls we are beating down and prying apart and scraping with our raw nails to uncover because we could not be more wide awake to our one pointed mission which we surmount time and again with the most paltry results in a void so alone. (One might look like a wizard to others but the by products are nothing but short lived encouragements for yet another expedition)

 

 

It is not atrophy that sees them fade, the grasp disappears as one moves to a different plane.

 

(Gotta go to an appointment - )

Edited May 19, 2014 by Spotless

[Nikolai1]

I think it is important for the individual to develop this flexibility where they can shift between the two without judgement.

 

Yes totally agree, and actually that's what I meant in the OP when I talked about trust. The trust to be sexually active if that's what is happening, the trust to be celibate if that's what is happening.

 

When celibacy is turned into a technique, then sexual activity is automatically perceived as a failure, Truth is you could be making amazing progress with your libido still rampant.

 

There is a lesson here for non-spiritual aspirants. Naturally occurring celibacy is called 'impotency' or 'frigidity'. People cannot accept what is happening to them, fight against it, pathologise the condition, and generally make themselves stressed and miserable. I remember reading in an 'Agony Aunt' a woman who was worried because her husband and her both didn't want to have sex anymore. Their libidos were in alignment, and yet she was still worried. Cab anything more insane be imagined?

Edited May 15, 2014 by Nikolai1

[Nikolai1]

Hi spotless,

 

 

As progress is made, great new energies come, new insights, a huge expansion of awareness, assuming that one is in good health, the corporeal enticements may lessen somewhat but as a group, they entice the high vitality we have welling up and the high vitality increasingly entices many of those around us.

 

One of the problems that comes up when we talk about the spiritual life is what we use as the starting point. To those who have learned to do so early, everything that happens is interpreted as a 'step on the path'.

 

But those who started life as materialists may date the spiritual life as starting only when something very grand, and unmistakably transcendental happens.

 

Everyday people experience what you're talking about all the time. They might think themselves dried up and finsihed at the age of thirty; but a divorce comes, and then six weeks into a new relationship and they suddenly have the sexual energies of a 17 year old but with all the confidence and experience of a 30 year old.

 

If such a person was into the Eastern traditions, they would almost certainly rationalise it with spiritual sounding terms: chakrasopening, kundalini rising etc. But this isn't the realisation that I'm talking about...its not the realisation that I'm explaining goes hand in hand with celibacy.

 

 

No, the desires do not dissipate by atrophy ( though for some the desires may naturally be somewhat low), they dissipate because the are not satisfactory,

 

They dissipate (my word was atrophy) because the person is already satisfied! A good meal can be totally satisfactory, everything we were hoping for, but there soon comes a time when we stop wanting to eat it. We are satisfied. We now have what we came for.

 

It might come as a surprise to many, but spiritual realisation provides us with all pleasures that sex does. Not in a instant dramatic hit like the orgasm...but in the way of gentle peace and bodily relaxation that is the essence of the orgasm.

 

If you have a person attached to a caffeine drip, it's nowhere near as powerful as a good espresso. But the truth is, the person on the drip will find themselves not really needing the espresso. The former craving never really takes hold. If offered they may take it, but they won't cross three streets and queue for 10 minutes. They just won't feel the motivation.

 

Spiritual realisation is the subtle satisfaction of all the pleasures that the normal person spends their life chasing. This is why we should never denigrate wordly pleasures like sex. In essence, they are God itself. Its just the technique is bad: the hit is too brief, and too dependent on circumstances beyond our control.

 

If sex still motivates you, then that is because you haven'y yet found the drip feed orgasm. It ain't gonna knock your socks off, which is perhaps why most people wouldn't touch true realisation with a bargepole.

[Rara]

 

Celibacy is just a fact of the realised life, in the same way as wisdom, goodness and joy are.

 

Firstly. purposefully or unpurposefully, the urge for sex is gradually reduced. Sexual pleasure is of the same nature as spiritual joy; therefore as the inner spiritual joy that we carry wherever we go increases, there becomes less need and sense to pursue the same through sex. Sex might still be enjoyed to a certain extent, but the strong motivation for it gets gradually reduced. The same goes for all the other pleasures that come from external things. Something better has been found.

 

Secondly, there is a reduction in the procreative urge. Once the person has become self-realised, there is no need for the search for realisation to be taken up by his offspring. The goal has been acheived, and with that success the need for offspring is eliminated.

 

It is very possible that a person can be highly spiritually developed and still be sexually axctive, but with full realisation the urge for sex will completely vanish. For some people, celibacy comes very early, and they consider it one of their first 'fruits'.

Thanks for your reply.

 

I do think that it naturally occurs Better that way rather than forcing such a thing.

 

I mean, when I was a teenager I would be extremely unsettled...on the prowl somewhat. That's normal. By choice of choosing a discipline, I have found a great partner and the "need" for sex has decreased. It isn't dead, but it is no longer something I'm "dying" for.

 

Looking back, had I have not adopted a spiritual practice, then I would probably still be addicted to "boning"...that's a better word to use. Porn terminology haha...I see that different to "love making"...I think we all do!

[Nikolai1]

Also, it isn't just our need for sex that gradually diminishes, it is our need for anything external to bring us pleasure. Like I've said, the joy that comes from authentic spiritual cultivation is sovereign. It represents and contains all the things that we value in the everyday world: bodily pleasure, relaxation, love, power, beauty, goodness. There is a common denominator in all these things and that is what we discover.

 

Although it looks like asceticism, the behaviour of the realised sage is not the same. Actually, there is no greater hedonist than the saint.

 

The ascetic sees the pleasures of the world as something bad, a distraction from the real deal. The sage is happy to let those who enjoy the world to find their pleasure there. But for himself, he has no further need for that stuff.

 

Anyone who calls worldly pleasures bad names is basically confessing that they don't understand the true spiritual nature of pleasure. And they must call it bad names precisely because they fear that fact that they are so drawn to worldly pleasure and attached to it.

 

But for the sage there is no reason to denounce that which we he has transcended. It is our truest spiritual instincts that seek us to find pleasure anywhere.

[Rara]

Also, it isn't just our need for sex that gradually diminishes, it is our need for anything external to bring us pleasure. Like I've said, the joy that comes from authentic spiritual cultivation is sovereign. It represents and contains all the things that we value in the everyday world: bodily pleasure, relaxation, love, power, beauty, goodness. There is a common denominator in all these things and that is what we discover.

 

Although it looks like asceticism, the behaviour of the realised sage is not the same. Actually, there is no greater hedonist than the saint.

 

The ascetic sees the pleasures of the world as something bad, a distraction from the real deal. The sage is happy to let those who enjoy the world to find their pleasure there. But for himself, he has no further need for that stuff.

 

Anyone who calls worldly pleasures bad names is basically confessing that they don't understand the true spiritual nature of pleasure. And they must call it bad names precisely because they fear that fact that they are so drawn to worldly pleasure and attached to it.

 

But for the sage there is no reason to denounce that which we he has transcended. It is our truest spiritual instincts that seek us to find pleasure anywhere.

Couldn't agree more. To take a "vow" of something is forced...perhaps due to some kind of guilt or insecurity. Cultivation leads to a natural understanding of one's own nature anyway...and one that knows this nature is immune to the thrills.

 

There is no "sin"...we can only land ourselves in trouble with overindulgence.

[GrandmasterP]

A brief body scan should convince all but the masochists or narcissists amongst our number that humans are not designed for celibacy.

Young men on here and elsewhere making a virtue out of necessity by laying claim to celibacy or 'retention' as some sort of 'good cultivation' are fooling no one but them-self and completely missing the point.

Quite rightly, such fancies last just as far as, but never further than them finding a significant other.

" Somebody needs a hug." could well be the celibate's mantra.

There comes a time in life, soon enough; for reflective celibacy, that time is not when one is a young man.

Edited May 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Rara]

A brief body scan should convince all but the masochists or narcissists amongst our number that humans are not designed for celibacy.

Young men on here and elsewhere making a virtue out of necessity by laying claim to celibacy or 'retention' as some sort of 'good cultivation' are fooling no one but them-self and completely missing the point.

Quite rightly, such fancies last just as far as, but never further than them finding a significant other.

" Somebody needs a hug." could well be the celibate's mantra.

There comes a time in life, soon enough; for reflective celibacy, that time is not when one is a young man.

But sexual desire is minimised by cultivation/over time anyway would you say?

 

The difference between someone who has had time to mature over years compared to the dirty old man down the strip club...

[GrandmasterP]

I don't know if cultivation has anything to do with it or not.

A very limited and entirely theoretical observation follows......

I bowl with seniors and I am a senior, I took delivery of my bus pass this month.

I teach QiGong to Age UK seniors most of whom are older than I am and all of whom are retired, I'm still working.

The QiGong cultivating seniors are friskier than the bowlers insofar as one can ever tell from getting to know people and listening to their stories.

Our neuroscience chums would say that the cultivating seniors have more 'feel good and frisky' chemical in their brain than do the non cultivating people.

I'm not so sure about the chemistry but what I see on a weekly basis is that....

Cultivating makes for friskier seniors.

Edited May 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Andrei]

That is because Qigong is stimulating serotonin production. Also when too much serotonin is produced it covers the dopamine effect and installs the "mental impotence" or "frigidity". Which occurs naturally if you really know how to manipulate the biochemical mechanism. Also the mechanism can be reversed anytime, maybe with less efficacy for seniors but it is still possible.

 

NEUROTRANSMITTERS are the brain chemicals that communicate information throughout our brain and body. They relay signals between nerve cells, called neurons. The brain uses neurotransmitters to tell your heart to beat, your lungs to breathe, and your stomach to digest. They can also affect mood, sleep, concentration, weight, and can cause adverse symptoms when they are out of balance. Neurotransmitter levels can be depleted many ways. As a matter of fact, it is estimated that 86% of Americans have suboptimal neurotransmitter levels. Stress, poor diet, neurotoxins, genetic predisposition, drugs (prescription and recreational), alcohol and caffeine usage can cause these levels to be out of optimal range.

 

There are two kinds of neurotransmitters INHIBITORY and EXCITATORY. Excitatory neurotransmitters are not necessarily exciting they are what stimulate the brain. Those that calm the brain and help create balance are called inhibitory. Inhibitory neurotransmitters balance mood and are easily depleted when the excitatory neurotransmitters are overactive.

 

Inhibitory Neurotransmitters

 

SEROTONIN is an inhibitory neurotransmitter which means that it does not stimulate the brain. Adequate amounts of serotonin are necessary for a stable mood and to balance any excessive excitatory (stimulating) neurotransmitter firing in the brain. If you use stimulant medications or caffeine in your daily regimen it can cause a depletion of serotonin over time. Serotonin also regulates many other processes such as carbohydrate cravings, sleep cycle, pain control and appropriate digestion. Low serotonin levels are also associated with decreased immune system function.

 

GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter that is often referred to as natures VALIUM-like substance. When GABA is out of range (high or low excretion values), it is likely that an excitatory neurotransmitter is firing too often in the brain. GABA will be sent out to attempt to balance this stimulating over-firing.

 

DOPAMINE is a special neurotransmitter because it is considered to be both excitatory and inhibitory. Dopamine helps with depression as well as focus, which you will read about in the excitatory section.

 

Excitatory Neurotransmitters

 

DOPAMINE is our main focus neurotransmitter. When dopamine is either elevated or low we can have focus issues such as not remembering where we put our keys, forgetting what a paragraph said when we just finished reading it or simply daydreaming and not being able to stay on task. Dopamine is also responsible for our drive or desire to get things done or motivation. Stimulants such as medications for ADD/ADHD and caffeine cause dopamine to be pushed into the synapse so that focus is improved. Unfortunately, stimulating dopamine consistently can cause a depletion of dopamine over time.

 

NOREPINEPHRINE is an excitatory neurotransmitter that is responsible for stimulatory processes in the body. Norepinephrine helps to make epinephrine as well. This neurotransmitter can cause ANXIETY at elevated excretion levels as well as some MOOD DAMPENING effects. Low levels of norepinephrine are associated with LOW ENERGY, DECREASED FOCUS ability and sleep cycle problems.

 

EPINEPHRINE is an excitatory neurotransmitter that is reflective of stress. This neurotransmitter will often be elevated when ADHD like symptoms are present. Long term STRESS or INSOMNIA can cause epinephrine levels to be depleted (low). Epinephrine also regulates HEART RATE and BLOOD PRESSURE.

[GrandmasterP]

Ruby Wax has an excellent section on that 'brain chemistry/cultivation' interface in her new book Sane New World....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sane-New-World-Taming-Mind/dp/1444755757/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1400431473&sr=1-1&keywords=sane+new+world

 

It's very interesting for sure.

 

[Andrei]

I have yet to see a book that is closing the gap between neurochemistry and qigong or neigong or taoist cultivation, whatever you may call it. The only one I've seen yet which covers only the spiritual quest is "Darkness technology" by Mantak Chia. But not everyone is interested to find the light in the darkness so it is quite underrated for its huge value. Anyway people prefer to chase rainbow poneys in the clouds instead of a down to earth approach. For instance expressions like "fill your kidney with qi" may mean just a "let your adrenal glands rest and build up the adrenaline reserves". Another example is the iron shirt practitioner that say "suck up the qi into your dantien" is just making a soup of serotonin and adrenaline which both are pain inhibitors and are very useful in fighting, but if you don't fight, then the mechanisms are not triggered and the hormones are not burned and accumulate and stagnate and create a lot of other problems.

[Nikolai1]

Just as there are loads of people doing yoga to fix their bad back, there will be loads of people doing QiGong to improve their sex life. Maybe the pensioners that are already frisky seek you out as a teacher GrandmasterP?

 

The point is, you can't ever know the authentic cultivator from the classes they attend. It seems to be that the really serious ones might actually stop classes for a while - and only come back to the classroon when they are the teacher.

 

There was something else that spotless hinted at here:

 

 

the high vitality we have welling up and the high vitality increasingly entices many of those around us.

 

I'm sure there's loads of people can recognise this. You're feeling happy, serene, you're making progress - and you attract the opposite sex more than you ever have. You might go along with it, but in a deep sense you are just being passive. Nothing to do with a raging libido.

[GrandmasterP]

Would that they did Nikolai.

Sadly, that's not the case.

I'm simply the only Age UK QiGong teacher currently employed by the charity in this area..

The oldsters don't get to choose.

They want free QiGong lessons- then it's me that they get.

 

:-)

Edited May 18, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Jetsun]

I think sexual repression and shame is one of the greatest barriers to the realised life, while for many celebacy is just a continuation of this neurotic attitude to sex, but dressed up in spiritual clothes.

[Rara]

I don't know if cultivation has anything to do with it or not.

A very limited and entirely theoretical observation follows......

I bowl with seniors and I am a senior, I took delivery of my bus pass this month.

I teach QiGong to Age UK seniors most of whom are older than I am and all of whom are retired, I'm still working.

The QiGong cultivating seniors are friskier than the bowlers insofar as one can ever tell from getting to know people and listening to their stories.

Our neuroscience chums would say that the cultivating seniors have more 'feel good and frisky' chemical in their brain than do the non cultivating people.

I'm not so sure about the chemistry but what I see on a weekly basis is that....

Cultivating makes for friskier seniors.

Fascinating!

[Nikolai1]

I think sexual repression and shame is one of the greatest barriers to the realised life,

 

Yes, what springs to mind for me is the expectation for Catholic priests to be celibate, all based on the misguided idea that it will cause them to be more holy.

 

Of course, it has never been the case that priests have actually been celibate - the attempt at repression doesn't work and never has done - but it has always been the case that their sexuality has been a cause of shame, and surrounded by secrecy.

 

The priest whose sexual activity can't be in the open must do it with people who are similarly motivated to keep it a secret. Historically, this has been married women, or unmarried women from the upper classes. Both of these groups stood to lose everything if they were found out - social standing, marriage, their children, their property. They could therefore be trusted to keep things illicit, and likewise priests were ideal candidates for a clandestine sexual affair.

 

As women became more empowered, the imperative for discretion became less and less: women were no longer safe targets for the priests sexual needs. As a population, the priests have therefore had to turn to those perennially disenfranchised groups: children and the learning disabled.

 

When you read the history and literature from, say, the 17th Century when the Catholic Church was at its height - sexually active priests always created a delicious scandal when it came out, but it was recognised by all that it was something that went on behind closed doors.

 

When priests stooped being able to have relations with fully functioning adults, their sexual behaviour was driven deeper underground. For many it became something unthinkable that their priest is a sexual being. People simply could not believe that something so incredible could occur.

 

Paedophilia in the modern priesthood therefore has three causes:

 

1) the dogmatic insistence on the virtue of celibacy

2) the empowerment of women

3) the increasing belief that priests really are celibate.

 

Until the Church changes its stance on celibacy, paedophlia will continue to haunt it. The sexual urge must find its outlet; pope after pope will fail to address the problem that causes string and universal disgust. Nobody condones it; talk to even the most devout Catholic and they are deeply pained by what goes on.

 

And yet this attachment to celibacy is based on a simple intellectual error regarding the human will, that has not been made by any of the other world religions. It is already destroying the Church, and will destroy it completely unless celibacy is abandoned.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Nikolai1

[GrandmasterP]

Bit off topic this so just this and I'll stop.

Here in England the Roman Catholic Church was struggling to get priests to fill vacant parishes.

The last Pope made a ' Personal Ordinariate' whereby married Church of England Priests who wanted to could become Roman Catholic Priests, some have done that and now work as married Roman Catholic parish priests.

I reckon that the Roman Catholics will allow married priests elsewhere eventually so as to maintain the supply of priests.

That whole celibacy thing has to be a huge barrier to recruitment these days.

Edited May 19, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[liminal_luke]

The priest whose sexual activity can't be in the open must do it with people who are similarly motivated to keep it a secret. Historically, this has been married women, or unmarried women from the upper classes.

 

I can´t speak to the historical record, but in modern times many a priest has violated his vow of celibacy with (other) adult gay males.

 

Liminal

Edited May 19, 2014 by liminal_luke

[Nikolai1]

That whole celibacy thing has to be a huge barrier to recruitment these days.

 

Actually, its often occurred to me that the need for celibacy might now actively attract those who can't accept their sexual inclinations. For example, it is much harder to be gay when you have been brought up as a Roman Catholic. Such a person might well feel that their sexuality is something that they need to hide from the world.

 

What better way of making it up to God than to become one of his priests? And, wishful thinking as it is, I'm sure may such young men think that making this vow will solve the problem of their sexuality, stop people asking questions.

 

I can´t speak to the historical record, but in modern times many a priest has violated his vow of celibacy with (other) adult gay males.

 

Yes, I think nowadays there will be a lot of homosexuality in the priesthood. The seminaries one imagines to be like English boarding schools, and It is quite common for priests to live with each other in Church properties once they are working.

[allinone]

To this morning i had a different opinion about celibacy.

 

I have had practiced celibacy about 4 years (not very stricktly i think). It does not replace anything, its for saving sexual energies what you can turn to chi and then rise these to the head and ingest the pill. After the process desires are gone, and the process starts after some time all over again.

 

When you do celibate then after some time you have much energies and it will make you to do things what you normally not to.

 

when your sexual desires are peaking then its a sign you are full(its also possible that sexual desire is not related to this)

then induce vibrations by being aware as much(quantity) as you can and as much aware(quality) you can

the energies are felt and seen when they rise to the head and then you can ingest the pill or medicine.

 

i have read that when the energies are rising not to force them, can damage the spirit embryo or something(if i even remember correctly) but i forgot, i try to keep in mind that next time. The thing is that you don't want to force them anyway when they are rising to the head, just helping little bit

 

first couple times its not plain and simple there are many things what have to be done first and seems to be not related to this at all. Specially first 3-4 times.

 

for me life seem to be a energy harvester. The result is knowledge.

Edited May 21, 2014 by allinone