Time commitment for practice a day: how for you?

[sunshine]

hi altogether,

 

I am not so much into polls... due to some of the recent discussion I was wondering about one thing. Those who have a teacher they train with:

 

How many hours does he advise as minimum or as necessary to advance?

How many of the advised time commitment you usually manage?

 

And if you like to share: what does your typical day look like. Maybe I can learn something for my own structuring of the day.

 

thankx much in advance

 

 

Harry

[宁]

24 - 7

[sunshine]

[宁]

no seriously, what do you think your girl would say if you tell her, honey, I have only four hours a day to dedicate to our beloved relationship...

how much do you think that relationship can last...

and, if you can build something in four hours, and tear it apart the next 20 hours of the day...

 

betcha you-know-who didnt tell you this one

 

 

as it turns, you, my friend, are the author of a pretty avoided topic.

i wonder why is it so avoided

[Ian]

I really don't believe it's a contradiction to spend x hours a day trying to "Defeat your karma" / "Unwind your self" / "dissolve your past" / "practice" / whatever you call it, and y hours per day being exactly the kind of human you're trying to stop being.

 

If you try to practice effectively more than 2, 3, 4 hours per day you will get bounced out. Your karma won't stand for it. "It's a 50,000 year old monster and your practice is a tiny baby."

 

We need stealth. Karma needs to be indulged, to an extent, until our practice is 20, 30 years/lifetimes solid. If you think you're practicing 24/7, then you're either very very advanced or kidding yourself.

 

Or so I'm told.

[Trunk]

I really don't believe it's a contradiction to spend x hours a day trying to "Defeat your karma" / "Unwind your self" / "dissolve your past" / "practice" / whatever you call it, and y hours per day being exactly the kind of human you're trying to stop being.

 

If you try to practice effectively more than 2, 3, 4 hours per day you will get bounced out. Your karma won't stand for it. "It's a 50,000 year old monster and your practice is a tiny baby."

 

We need stealth. Karma needs to be indulged, to an extent, until our practice is 20, 30 years/lifetimes solid. If you think you're practicing 24/7, then you're either very very advanced or kidding yourself.

 

Or so I'm told.

 

Wow. Just had to quote the whole thing. (and mess with the lettering)

That's worth reading three times.

[hagar]

I really don't believe it's a contradiction to spend x hours a day trying to "Defeat your karma" / "Unwind your self" / "dissolve your past" / "practice" / whatever you call it, and y hours per day being exactly the kind of human you're trying to stop being.

 

If you try to practice effectively more than 2, 3, 4 hours per day you will get bounced out. Your karma won't stand for it. "It's a 50,000 year old monster and your practice is a tiny baby."

 

We need stealth. Karma needs to be indulged, to an extent, until our practice is 20, 30 years/lifetimes solid. If you think you're practicing 24/7, then you're either very very advanced or kidding yourself.

 

Or so I'm told.

 

Thus, practice should always be comfortably uncomfortable.

 

You can have a wonderful 10 minutes on the mat or waste 4 hours on the mat. Its not about the hours, but about the ability to tune in. Practice is actually never a process. The really are no blockages of chi, amd there are no levels of attainment. You either get it your you don't.

 

The only thing you train is in essence your ability to perceive something as real

 

h

Edited August 9, 2007 by hagar

[sunshine]

no seriously, what do you think your girl would say if you tell her, honey, I have only four hours a day to dedicate to our beloved relationship...

how much do you think that relationship can last...

and, if you can build something in four hours, and tear it apart the next 20 hours of the day...

 

betcha you-know-who didnt tell you this one

as it turns, you, my friend, are the author of a pretty avoided topic.

i wonder why is it so avoided

 

Little,

 

I am single, so much of what you rightfully hinted at does not really count for me. Further: nobody ever said that people on a certain path have a simple life. And by the way: not only spiritual seekers have trouble spending proper (don't even touch the topic of worthwhile) time with their partners! Look at the world of "non-seekers" everywhere!

 

And by the way: at the seminar we were reminded, in order to realize the importance of the task and that what we intend to do really IS a serious commitment: that Buddha did not teach to householders and Jesus asked people to leave their families to follow him.

 

The much "avoided topic" you refer to is the topic opened by my question?

 

 

Harry

 

Wow. Just had to quote the whole thing. (and mess with the lettering)

That's worth reading three times.

 

 

Ian. Is it possible to rephrase your "statement" in a way that someone like me, whose mother-tongue isn'T English, can get what you mean? I am completely at a loss, although I am sensing the same quality as "Trunk"!!!

 

 

Harry

Edited August 9, 2007 by sunshine

[宁]

Sunshine it's a metaphor, read it again, please, and get it right, or i'll be dissapointed

Cameron I still vote for 24 - 7, for reasons beyond my capacity to explain

[sunshine]

Sunshine it's a metaphor, read it again, please, and get it right, or i'll be dissapointed

Cameron I still vote for 24 - 7, for reasons beyond my capacity to explain

 

AHA. Got it (at least I think so) I tell you. This celibacy thing makes one go weird the moment anyone speaks about girls, even if it is just a metaphor, thereby missing the point...

 

there are no 20 hours a day to screw it up. It is a fulltime commitment

 

 

Harry

[Pietro]

hi altogether,

 

I am not so much into polls... due to some of the recent discussion I was wondering about one thing. Those who have a teacher they train with:

 

How many hours does he advise as minimum or as necessary to advance?

How many of the advised time commitment you usually manage?

 

And if you like to share: what does your typical day look like. Maybe I can learn something for my own structuring of the day.

 

thankx much in advance

 

 

Harry

 

10 minutes a day, but do that every day.

When you are confortabe doing that even when you are sick, ill, lost, etc, bring it up.

 

Eventually it becomes part of your life.

 

When you "practice" try to make something happen. Example, feel the whole body, or have a full body breathing, or breath from your abdomen, or ...

When that is easy, try to make that happen outside of your 10 minute, and use the 10 minutes of "practice to go deeper". When you are able to do that thing when you sleep you start learning something else. As such is not a fixed time. There is some time for intense practice in the morning, and there are periods when you are trying to fix something in your life. And then periods that are more calm, as what you were working with has now been integrated, and the new stuff is not ready to be done outside.

 

 

Generally start to learn things when you are sitting,

when you can do that effortlessly do it standing

when you can do that effortlessly do that while making circles in one plane (vertical)

... in the second plane (horizontal)

... in the third plane (vertical in front of you)

... doing tai ji

... and onyl then you can do it when you are doing other things

... while having sex (any activity that invloves other people)

... while sleeping.

... learn something new and go back to step one

 

As you can see it is not a linear process but a circular one. As such there is no single answer.

 

Also please pay attention that different school have different methods. Yoga would often say practice as your hair were on fire. Taoism does not follow that, we believe in being in balance all the time. I could say more, but I have no time.

 

Pietro

[mYTHmAKER]

One of my teachers used to say don't do too much. Little by little.

Referring to the physical exercise aspects. However, he practiced

the idea, he internalized his form 24/7.

One has to imbibe- become one with your practice.

I think that is what seperates the masters from the herd.

It is not necessary to leave your family. There have been

many householders who have become one with the void.

[宁]

I'm proud of ya'all

[Cameron]

Sunshine it's a metaphor, read it again, please, and get it right, or i'll be dissapointed

Cameron I still vote for 24 - 7, for reasons beyond my capacity to explain

 

 

Umm...I don't think I have said anything in this thread, have I?

[Taomeow]

Really liked your thoughts, Ian!

 

Here's from a pragmatist:

I suspect the same rule applies here that I've seen some research link to efficient workouts for athletes and bodybuilders. Muscles actually grow after being worked but during rest. For bodybuilders, e.g., if their muscles are worked every day, without rest periods, muscle mass increase is slower than if they are exercised every other day. Skills are, likewise, wired into long-term memory during rest, not during actual practice (that only takes them to short term kinesthetic memory for temporary storage). What "karma" can bounce back can also be bounced back by overloading one's short-term kinesthetic memory without giving stuff you practice a chance to sink into the long-term memory. So... every other day seems like a reasonable rule of thumb. No burnout, no boredom, you actually look forward to your next chance to practice, you can't wait!.. Unless it's all my lazy bone's excuses of course.

 

24/7 is realistic though, imo. I taiji my dishes into the dishwasher every time...

[beancurdturtle]

The question is incomplete...

 

Practice what? Train what?

 

For some of us, the objective is to live in harmony with the Way, here and now, in acceptance and contentment. In that case you must practice within every moment - that's 24/7. If this is your objective, then doing it any other way is kidding yourself.

[zenbrook]

The question is incomplete...

 

Practice what? Train what?

 

For some of us, the objective is to live in harmony with the Way, here and now, in acceptance and contentment. In that case you must practice within every moment - that's 24/7. If this is your objective, then doing it any other way is kidding yourself.

Once again, bct, you're way ahead of the game Couldn't have put it better myself. Which I guess is why I haven't. That, and apathy.

 

I think this again returns to what I was trying to get at when i started the 'What breed of bum?' thread. A lot of the questions/subjects brought up for discussion here often make little sense precisely because our 'practices' (if indeed we have a practice at all) are many and varied. We're all seeking very different things and consequently our paths are different too. I suppose I was interested in what our unique individual bases were so that I could (hopefully) correspond more effectively with the people here. I'm not sure it quite worked out like that.

 

I'd go with the above, absolutely. If you're not practicing 24/7 you're indulging. BUT that's because for me awareness is the name of the game - everything else is just ornamentation. Like the story says:

 

One day a visitor came to see the well known Dzogchen master Yundon Dorje Bal. The visitor asked "You Dzogchen practitioners, you are always doing meditation, right?" Yundon Dorje Bal answered "What am I supposed to be meditating upon?" "Ah", the visitor then said, "then you practitioners of Dzogchen do not meditate?" This time the master's reply was "When am I ever distracted?"

Like the story, anyway. One assumes Yundon actually meant what he said. As opposed to saying it simply to make a point. Kinda like I'm doing here.

 

Bugger.

ZenB

[Ian]

 

And if you like to share: what does your typical day look like. Maybe I can learn something for my own structuring of the day.

 

Didn't see this bit. Here you go:

 

Typical mon, tue, thu, fri: Wake up 7.00am, faff about, stand for 45 mins, take tiny beast coffee, faff more, go to work by nine. Work to five or six pm, maybe lotus walk through the park to home if it's nice, spend evening like a human, unless alone, in which case probably an hour of chi kung or half an hour of sitting.

 

Weds, as above, except 6.30 to 8.30pm I take a chi kung class.

 

Weekend same, except move it all back about two hours and subtract the work.

 

I do lots of little things during the day but am careful not to dignify them with the tag of practice.

[宁]

Hello Ian, everyone.

Just wanted to add a couple of thoughts.

I have a couple of friends, that are really into one basic concept, and they build their mind around it

They tend to overemphasize the importance of... karma.

It's a great concept, maybe largely misunderstood, as with any part of the Dao, we all know that.

One of my teachers calls karma the auto-pilot.

He says, when you dont do anything, karma is a mechanism designed to run your life for you.

When you start building the Dan, and work for enlightenment and freedom, you gradually leave "the program", "the mechanism". There is no other way.

If they try to tell you that you have to follow the program of the matrix, and get enlightened... well... I have my doubts.

My point is, keep the role of karma as low as you can. It has a role. Just dont make an excuse out of it.

 

Yes, I agree with Taomeow, we grow when we rest. The practice has Yin Practice and Yang Practice.

 

 

 

 

Someone really good with chinese astrology could explain this better, I think.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Little1

[Spectrum]

At least an hour. Wake & Sleep 30 min each. I am usually able to secure more time than this by setting expectations and working into routines that feed off one another. It's best to practice w/ partners AT LEAST once a week, but you need to practice ANYTHING 3x a week to sustain & 4/5 to really improve fast. This even goes for the ukulele.

 

I alternate between tai chi, chi gung & kung fu ... and uke practice right now.

 

Sometimes practice is NOT DOING, so I think that ultimately the 24/7 principles apply to internal artists who are cultivating the 3 treasures.

 

... and when it doubt, learn a new song.

 

Spectrum

 

PS - Anything that you build a routine around will yeild results. The most important thing I think is to realize when your body is done absorbing the knowledge for the day. Knowing when to rest is more important for daily training then "making a schedule" for yourself. You can learn a lot more w/ a complimentary training routine, for simple example moving forms like tai chi one day, and very slow or still chi gung forms the next, and into bag work the next. Or another as in weights: arms, core, legs. Only thing in Taoist Arts everyday you let go a little bit more....

 

My Yogini like significant other is sure I'm wrong, yet when I compare my daily practice to her cooking without recipes... I digress.

Edited August 11, 2007 by Spectrum

[Spectrum]

Side Note: there are days in which the "Effects" of chi gung seem further away and thus it "seems" like you need to practice "more" or "harder" or "with more spirit"... but alas... illusions... less is more. Just do it everyday.

[beancurdturtle]

Another side note.

 

This feels like a contrast between practicing the Taoist arts, and actualizing Taoist philosophy in our life. And it's possible to do either, both, or glide between them based on needs.

 

The first is different than the details of modern life. For for Taoist arts, you do need to set aside time from the details of life for practice.

 

The latter takes a conscious effort to live differently from most other people, and practice doing so on a 24/7 basis. It has little or nothing to do with practicing Taoist arts.

 

Either has its purpose. I'm of the latter ilk.

Edited August 11, 2007 by beancurdturtle

[forestofsouls]

 

My point is, keep the role of karma as low as you can. It has a role. Just dont make an excuse out of it.

 

 

What do you mean when you use the term karma? From what I've learned, karma is, at its most basic meaning, cause and effect. You give into anger over and over again, you develop a habit of anger. You cultivate awareness, you become more aware. The whole reason why practice works is karma. The same wheel that binds can set you free.

 

I think what Ian is referring to is this tendency many of us have to fall into the delusion that we are awake when we are not. Many people are confused when I tell them I meditate to build attention--- they think we pay attention all the time. But they haven't studied the mechanisms of their mind-- how much we are driven by thoughts, impulses, desires, inattention. They don't even think they NEED to. And this is the most dangerous ego traps of all, because if one don't even know that one is in prison, there's no hope of escape. One can sleep, and sleep soundly.

 

Of course, these words don't apply to any of us here.

[Ian]

My definition:

 

Karma is everything. I have never had a thought or an emotion, Karma has had them all.

 

This body is the resultant body, built of karma.

 

It's not an excuse, I still do what I can, I've just had to gradually accept that I don't really exist in any of the ways I thought I did.

 

The day carries on...

[宁]

"I've just had to gradually accept that I don't really exist in any of the ways I thought I did."

 

I like this part, is something I am learning about these days. It can be taken many ways. I'm not sure we understand the same thing.

 

Can you elaborate more?

 

"Karma"

 

Well, when we talk about it, it seems we talk about cause and efect, but it seems we use it more as a limitating term to ourselves. Belive me, I wouldnt like to be one of those wishfull thinkers that take everything the easy way. But I know there is a part of us that doesnt obey the laws of the matrix. And this is what counts for us.