Time commitment for practice a day: how for you?

[zenbrook]

"Karma"

Karma is often described as cause & effect, but we should not confound cause & effect with some kind of mechanism inherent in the fabric of reality.

 

The root of karma is the dualistic mind. When the dualistic mind is not present, then karma is also not present. If karma is seen as independent of the individual experiencing karma, then we have a form of fatalism. It's perhaps more useful to see karma in terms of perception & response rather than cause & effect (though the essential meaning is the same). If the cause which is our perception perceives a focus of attraction, aversion, or indifference, the effect will be the response to that cause. There is no sense in which the actual circumstances of our lives are preordained according to a system of rewards & punishments for our previous actions. This is a primitive misconception and one which would make enlightenment dependent upon karma.

 

Karma nonetheless is described as cause & effect, which means that through distorted perception we respond inappropriately and create the cyclic patterns of our neurotic conditioning. Once we have touched the idea that we create our own unsatisfactoriness through dualistic preconception, the possibility of allowing our view to change suggests itself. We can then let go of the form of unsatisfactoriness.

 

Which would be nice

ZenB

[Spectrum]

This feels like a contrast between practicing the Taoist arts, and actualizing Taoist philosophy in our life. And it's possible to do either, both, or glide between them based on needs.

 

The first is different than the details of modern life. For for Taoist arts, you do need to set aside time from the details of life for practice.

 

The latter takes a conscious effort to live differently from most other people, and practice doing so on a 24/7 basis. It has little or nothing to do with practicing Taoist arts.

 

Isn't the transformational effects on consciousness of "practice" akin or superior to the conscientiousness bred through mindful living?

[zenbrook]

Isn't the transformational effects on consciousness of "practice" akin or superior to the conscientiousness bred through mindful living?

No.

[Taomeow]

Per my investigation, karma is not the outcome of dualistic thought, or if it is, the thought didn't originate in the human mind. "Long ago, a wind came, blew open a door in the heart that should have stayed closed" -- that's how an Ayurvedic doctor specializing in karmic diseases diagnoses a condition that in Western terms is known as congenital heart valve defect. Such conditions are not the outcome of the patient's doing or thinking, either in this life or in any previous ones.

 

Karma is not unlike the early Judeo-Christian idea of primordial sin, and only later developments got the concept of "sin" to get interpreted as the person's own fault. An older understanding of "sin" is more like "a flaw in the fabric of reality," something that screwed things up by itself, ziran. Many shamanic traditions maintain there once was a luminous presence in the sky at all times and people were in communication with it at all times. And then it disappeared. A wind came...

[Spectrum]

... and I Rode it like the Tiger

 

No.

 

You need another dose of medicine

Edited August 11, 2007 by Spectrum

[zenbrook]

An older understanding of "sin" is more like "a flaw in the fabric of reality," something that screwed things up by itself, ziran.

I'd agree here...... but we are perhaps complicit in allowing things to screw themselves up.

 

Please don't get me wrong. I'm absolutely NOT of the opinion that how we are today is a result of our past actions - I'm disabled, consequently I must have been 'bad' in a past life - such triteness is both obscene in its implications and childishly facile. Karma is about how we view the world and consequently respond to it. Habituated behaviour that results in overall unsatisfactoriness. The idea of karma as something independent of the individual experiencing karma is a fairytale told to scare people into 'good behaviour'.

 

We really can drive our own karma, as Swami Beyondananda would say

 

Peace,

ZenB

 

You need another dose of medicine

Can you recommend a good physician?

[Spectrum]

Isnt that Dharma? Rhymes w/ Karma? Works for me. He-He.

[zenbrook]

Isnt that Dharma? Rhymes w/ Karma? Works for me. He-He.

But that gives me dharmarhoea.

[宁]

Me and my big mouth.

Fellows, let's dropt this, shall we?

Karma wasn't on the menu.

We were talking about...? practice...?

 

[beancurdturtle]

Isn't the transformational effects on consciousness of "practice" akin or superior to the conscientiousness bred through mindful living?

No.

Hah! That's exactly the way I was going to answer. Instead - I will elaborate from my experience such as it is.

 

Ok, I will not deal with religious or spiritual Taoism here because it's a whole different animal, and I'm not at all into it - so I'm not qualified to comment on it. Understand that I started my exposure to Taoism through a Taoist doctor (vitalizing Taoism) with Traditional Chinese (TCM). I moved to Taoist arts (tai-ji-chuan etc.). Then to study of Chinese classics (philosophical Taoism) like Tao te Ching, I-Ching, Yellow Emperor's Classic on Medicine, and etc.

 

The Arts (vitalizing Taoism):

Practicing the arts at first makes us more perfect (assuming there is a thing or state of "perfection") at the art. As the practice becomes internalized and automatic we start to get a sense of it's deeper impact on our sphere of physicality - the movement of qi in our bodies and space, our energy boundaries, other people's energy and boundaries, and etc. Eventually we actualize the changed perception to integrate and harmonize our sphere of physicality more fully with our environment.

 

One day this thought of "Holy Cow! That's how it works." springs into our head - not because we know how it works, but because we can sense the holistic working. The next realization is that we have the ability to integrate and harmonize our sphere of sentience and behavior as well.

 

For example, regarding vitalizing Taoism and Taoist Arts. I am going to a Taoist TCM doctor now for a physical issue. My ability to sense the change in energy flow when I get acupuncture today is hugely different from the first time I received acupuncture. The first time I was mostly aware of the pin pricks where they pierced me. Now I am mostly aware of the "gates" opening and qi movement changing in the meat of me, the change in character of my exhaled breath, of the excess (previously stagnated) qi escaping with my breath.

 

Taoist arts can open our eyes to a different way of experiencing and actualizing our interface with our environment.

 

The Way (philosophical Taoism):

I believe it's possible to start with the philosophy, or mindful living, though I didn't do it that way. There is a parallel with the arts in that we have to practice. To do it, we have to understand that we are creatures of habit, but not simply reactive creatures. Then we need a threshold of understanding of how to live in accordance with The Way so we can begin to change inappropriate habits and habitual responses. This takes the 24/7 vigilance of an internal coach, because doing it part-time only gets it partly done. As we practice and get better, as our sphere of sentience becomes more integrated and harmonized with our environment, then the internal coach can step aside.

 

One day we finish a day and realize the coach never stepped in. Then the "Holy Cow!" realization springs to our head again. That's when we've stepped from living mindfully to actualization. Occasionally we will still need the coach to step in, and the coach should be on call 24/7. The realization here is knowing that our mind-energy can be directed and experienced in a completely different way then how we are taught. When our sphere of sentience becomes integrated and harmonized, I suspect it would be impossible to ignore the fact that our sphere of physicality could be similarly transformed.

 

For example, our reaction to stresses and stimulus is different. Stress doesn't translate directly to high blood pressure - instead, the cause is accepted, and the response is appropriate and tuned towards creating harmony. Insults or things that infuriated us before become humorous because we know that even our perception of self and everything is only perception and mostly irrelevant to here and now.

 

Taoist philosophy also opens our eyes to a different way of experiencing and actualizing our interface with our environment.

 

Putting it together:

Put it all together, and you come to the understanding that the arts (practices) and mindful living (philosophy) are both very powerfully transformational when practiced and actualized. But they each have their place.

 

I wouldn't use acupuncture and herb teas and I wouldn't break into tai-ji-chuan in a business meeting to deal with an insulting or abusive person. I wouldn't use philosophy to deal with a physical issue like an injury or illness. We should understand and use both as is best for our spirit, environment, and whatever is happening in the here and now.

 

One is not more powerful or better than the other. But the conscious application of one versus the other, right paddle or left paddle, changes dependent on where our personal cosmic kayak has currently drifted.

Edited August 11, 2007 by beancurdturtle

[Spectrum]

"Then the "Holy Cow!" realization springs to our head again. That's when we've stepped from living mindfully to actualization"

 

Profound. How long did it take you to do that?

Edited August 11, 2007 by Spectrum

[beancurdturtle]

"Then the "Holy Cow!" realization springs to our head again. That's when we've stepped from living mindfully to actualization"

 

Profound. How long did it take you to do that?

Profound? I don't do profound - it's overrated.

 

Oh Golly! I had the 2nd (philosophical) "Holy Cow!" realization several years ago about 15 years after my initial introduction to Taoism. 24/7 actualization is not something I can pull off - but I get some pretty good stretches in at times.

 

If you asked my internal coach, he would say I've a lot of work to do. That's why he's on call 24/7.

[Spectrum]

Every time another synapse forms.

Edited August 11, 2007 by Spectrum

[beancurdturtle]

15 years at how long a day?

This is hard to quantify. I think I only started thinking it was possible to actualize Taoist philosophy in the current world environment about 12 years after introduction to Taoism. By that time I was not "practicing" any of the Taoist arts.

 

Then there was a period of really getting in touch with how and by what my thoughts, reactions, and behaviors (habits) were motivated.

 

Then a period of interpolating what I knew of Taoist philosophy into "my rules."

 

Then a period of bringing in the coach, which is a 24/7, for the rest of my life, kinda thing.

 

Then one evening I realized I had done an entire normal day - with work, meetings, getting my son to school, shopping, annoyances, and all the other stuff of modern life - peacefully and in contentment. That was the 2nd "Holy Cow!" realization.

 

Now I get most days finished in peace and contentment. I feel very lucky, and I quite dig it.

[Spectrum]

This is hard to quantify. I think I only started thinking it was possible to actualize Taoist philosophy in the current world environment about 12 years after introduction to Taoism. By that time I was not "practicing" any of the Taoist arts.

 

Then there was a period of really getting in touch with how and by what my thoughts, reactions, and behaviors (habits) were motivated.

 

Then a period of interpolating what I knew of Taoist philosophy into "my rules."

 

Then a period of bringing in the coach, which is a 24/7, for the rest of my life, kinda thing.

 

Then one evening I realized I had done an entire normal day - with work, meetings, getting my son to school, shopping, annoyances, and all the other stuff of modern life - peacefully and in contentment. That was the 2nd "Holy Cow!" realization.

 

Now I get most days finished in peace and contentment. I feel very lucky, and I quite dig it.

 

I enjoy your progressive response towards peace.

[witch]

Per my investigation, karma is not the outcome of dualistic thought, or if it is, the thought didn't originate in the human mind. "Long ago, a wind came, blew open a door in the heart that should have stayed closed" -- that's how an Ayurvedic doctor specializing in karmic diseases diagnoses a condition that in Western terms is known as congenital heart valve defect. Such conditions are not the outcome of the patient's doing or thinking, either in this life or in any previous ones.

 

Karma is not unlike the early Judeo-Christian idea of primordial sin, and only later developments got the concept of "sin" to get interpreted as the person's own fault. An older understanding of "sin" is more like "a flaw in the fabric of reality," something that screwed things up by itself, ziran. Many shamanic traditions maintain there once was a luminous presence in the sky at all times and people were in communication with it at all times. And then it disappeared. A wind came...

 

Do those shamanic traditions also mention the rise of agriculture in the same myth? Like the Garden of Eden myth? A hunter/gatherer diet produces a mind with high dopamine and low serotonin. High dopamine when produced by a brain disease like schizophrenia will cause disturbed feelings of meaning, sensations of spiritual beings, and the feeling of communication with spiritual beings. However I believe when this high dopamine/low serotonin balance is achieved naturally through diet, it brings a peaceful and fulfilling feeling of a luminous presence and spiritual communication, allows a person to "walk with God" as Genesis tells it.

[Spectrum]

An older understanding of "sin" is more like "a flaw in the fabric of reality," something that screwed things up by itself, ziran. Many shamanic traditions maintain there once was a luminous presence in the sky at all times and people were in communication with it at all times. And then it disappeared. A wind came...

 

I think those rips in space time are still ahh...around here somewhere... what's up with that as above so below? As below so above now? Weird.

[rain]

........

Edited April 18, 2008 by rain

[Spectrum]

are you asking

 

-training on my own?

-training with a teacher?

training what? - meditation, qigong, taichi, tkd, yoga?

 

qigong used to take 90 min pr. day minimum. now it takes 20 minutes 6 times a week and 1,5hours once a week.

yoga 1 hour pr week

meditation ... unstable practize...today 1-1,5 hours

tkd 3-4 hours a week

 

it is not much, and i mix,

(heard you dont think its recommendable to mix)

but i like it...

 

yess i do!!

 

It's a commendable routine. A mix of internal / external. Personally I would practice the tkd S L O W M O T I O N at home, then see how it effects my performance in class. <shrug> just thoughts. Nice mix.

[sunshine]

(heard you dont think its recommendable to mix)

but i like it...

yess i do!!

 

You know. Some people enjoy piercing nails through their big toe and others love banging their head against walls... doesn't mean it is good for them. And my statement of not mixing practices refers to the practice I am doing right now. My teacher is very clear about that what we do is no joke and one can mess things up pretty easily and quickly! Does not mean it refers to the practices that you are doing... but as we are on the topic: I know of at least three different teachers that advise against it! Depending on the practices it might at minimum mess all up and at worst kill you. Something to consider.

 

Thankx for sharing what a typical practice day of yours looks like.

 

 

Harry

[rain]

...........

Edited April 18, 2008 by rain

[sunshine]

I am sure your practise is good for you.

 

I very much hope it turns out to be. Time will tell.... but that was not what it was about

 

 

Harry

[Spectrum]

The problem I see with mixing external arts with internal arts for instance standing w/ tkd is tkd was not "designed" to circulate the chi that you will accumulate through standing practice. In this regard it would be "wiser" to follow the cultural paths of movement available. For instance chi gung being tempered w/ tai chi, bagua, xing yi, yi quan, etc etc. Not saying you can't burn off extra energy w/ tkd, just that is exactly what it would seem like to me, burning it off, instead of circulating it.

 

I used to do the same thing, for a long time i only did standing meditation and wei dan chi gung. I would burn off the extra energy w/ push hands, sparring/grappling or cross training. As I've grown older I learned the Yang 108 and am sorry i didn't learn it earlier, because it seems so obvious what all the tai chi styles are, yes, self defense, but more importantly for me, the circulation of energy, which is a much BIGGER yes then simply self defense, which is nice, although competitive mindset which you must defeat first to pass further.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Spectrum

[Taomeow]

I think those rips in space time are still ahh...around here somewhere... what's up with that as above so below? As below so above now? Weird.

you're right, as below so above -- e.g., Confucius models the state on the family, with the power of the father being replicated on a larger scale by the power of the emperor, filial piety of the children, by the service and devotion of commoners to the rulers, and so on. All fractals go either way, they can replicate themselves top to bottom OR bottom to top. That's one of the reasons messing with life on Earth can demolish the tao of the Big Dipper. And that's also the reason Ta Chuan states that someone who understands the Changes (I Ching) perfectly can even assist the gods.

[rain]

I very much hope it turns out to be. Time will tell.... but that was not what it was about

 

 

Harry

 

i follow the exact program given to me by my qigong master.

the amount of time spent is varying depending on specific exercises and how they are put together in sequences.

due to his not too stringent directions about mixing i allow myself other practise too.

but the qigong is centrefocus.

 

tkd is martial art, as is tai chi, so i have been told. qigong is self-medicine where i am now.

 

through the qigong i awaken to the benfits of movements in tkd poomse (like karate kata).

it helps me breathe and rest "in between". it has helped me understand the enormous benefit in zan zhuang..we have the horsstanding intkd too but averything is much more force here. the funny thing is that in qigong zanshuang i really learn how to be able to move both with maximum balance, fexibility and the result becomes strength. the qigong showed me how our stabilizermuscles can kick into action.

Footwork and distance..then bodytechniqe. tkd is a lot of technique.

it all helps flow. precition. being the "whip".

i have followed som of your threads about stagnated yang energy, and the discomforts due to this.

interesting. i have a lot to learn.

 

martial..

internal..

external.......

 

i say wring the egg