communicating through emptiness

[UTI]

The setting is such:

 

I am sitting in meditation, my mind in emptiness practicing the elixir. In the kitchen my family is sitting eating icecream, delighting over the flavour.

Within the emptiness I make this observation:

 

-non-corporeal mind:

"The sensation of eating icecream is known to them before eating this icecream, as well as after it. The sensation of eating it is percieved with the same organs as the memory of percieving it, making this sensation available at any instance, and in any place. Yet, there exists the distinction that the act of eating icecream is limited in time, limited in availability, and destructive for the body. The memory of eating icecream is not.

Why, then, do we partake in the act of something, when we already know it and can visit that sensation beyond the limitations of temporal and corporeal experience?"

-corporeal mind:

"because icecream is tasty, stupid."

-non-corporeal mind:

"never mind. you go back to fanticizing about partaking in destructive behaviour, and I'll go back to experiencing reality beyond the limitations of space and time, becoming one with all existance through emptiness."

-corporeal mind:

"like, yeah, whatever. geek."

 

The reason that I share this is because I want to know if anyone else experiences these sensations of a mindsplit. I feel like when I meditate my consciousness passes through a gate and into another form, one existing in boundless emptiness, beyond space and time. When I am there, I am simply aware of everything, perceiving reality clearly. However, as soon as i pass back this consciousness fades. I step out of the gate, and my consciousness returns to this limited existance. However, for every time I dive into it, passing the gate, it is like I take a small drop from that ocean back with me.

 

I don't know if this is what is called the gate of mystery in taoism.

 

I have also noticed that recently, the gate is easier. It's like I can see through it, getting glimpses of the mystery even when I am not meditating. Feeling emptiness in my actions and thoughts even when out of meditation. I am experimenting with it, seeing how I act when i act in emptiness.

 

like,

doing the dishes in emptiness,

playing with the kids in emptiness,

walking to the bus in emptiness,

shopping groceries in emptiness.

 

Speaking to people in emptiness remains impossible...

 

Posting this in emptiness also seems to activate too much of my desire for gratification and curiosity to remain, as expected.

[Marblehead]

Well, first, let me say that those are beautiful observations.

 

Yes, meditation can offer ensights we would never have during full consciousness.

 

But then, I keep icecream in the house so I can eat some whenever I want and not just think about it.

 

Thanks for sharing this.

[GrandmasterP]

Man that is dedicated meditation.

Ice cream available in the next room and you can sit?

Respect!

 

 

:-)

 

 

 

Ice cream would win every time here.

Hence we don't keep ice cream in the house as a rule.

Edited May 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[UTI]

I guess the idea is that when in emptiness, the recollection of an experience is so complete and perfect because it is limitless and can last however long one wishes, since it is a non-temporal experience. Whereas the "real" experience of something is limited to our ability to perceive it, and always comes with the catch of gradual decay and iminent death...

 

I had no trouble not eating the icecream.

[GrandmasterP]

Aye it's a slippery eel is 'emptiness'.

The moment we notice it - it dissolves.

Edited May 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[UTI]

Aye it's a slippery eel is 'emptiness'.

The moment we notice it - it dissolves.

 

Haha, yes, as soon as we see we stepped through the gate, the inner room becomes the outer.

[manitou]

Aye it's a slippery eel is 'emptiness'.

The moment we notice it - it dissolves.

 

 

A slippery eel is right.

 

Sort of like having a lucid dream. When I focus on something directly, it goes away. Have to look to the side.

[manitou]

I have also noticed that recently, the gate is easier. It's like I can see through it, getting glimpses of the mystery even when I am not meditating. Feeling emptiness in my actions and thoughts even when out of meditation. I am experimenting with it, seeing how I act when i act in emptiness.

 

 

UTI - I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been a meditator for over 30 years. There comes a point where our meditations do spill out into our daily lives. Almost like the word Love is hovering within our consciousness, and all actions stemming from our consciousness are colored with Love. it is rare now that I am not in consciousness in my daily activities. it's no longer necessary to 'attempt' to stay in consciousness. We are there pretty much 24/7, once we get to that point.

 

Not an overnight endeavor.

[Spotless]

The setting is such:

 

I am sitting in meditation, my mind in emptiness practicing the elixir. In the kitchen my family is sitting eating icecream, delighting over the flavour.

Within the emptiness I make this observation:

 

-non-corporeal mind:

"The sensation of eating icecream is known to them before eating this icecream, as well as after it. The sensation of eating it is percieved with the same organs as the memory of percieving it, making this sensation available at any instance, and in any place. Yet, there exists the distinction that the act of eating icecream is limited in time, limited in availability, and destructive for the body. The memory of eating icecream is not.

Why, then, do we partake in the act of something, when we already know it and can visit that sensation beyond the limitations of temporal and corporeal experience?"

-corporeal mind:

"because icecream is tasty, stupid."

-non-corporeal mind:

"never mind. you go back to fanticizing about partaking in destructive behaviour, and I'll go back to experiencing reality beyond the limitations of space and time, becoming one with all existance through emptiness."

-corporeal mind:

"like, yeah, whatever. geek."

 

The reason that I share this is because I want to know if anyone else experiences these sensations of a mindsplit. I feel like when I meditate my consciousness passes through a gate and into another form, one existing in boundless emptiness, beyond space and time. When I am there, I am simply aware of everything, perceiving reality clearly. However, as soon as i pass back this consciousness fades. I step out of the gate, and my consciousness returns to this limited existance. However, for every time I dive into it, passing the gate, it is like I take a small drop from that ocean back with me.

 

I don't know if this is what is called the gate of mystery in taoism.

 

I have also noticed that recently, the gate is easier. It's like I can see through it, getting glimpses of the mystery even when I am not meditating. Feeling emptiness in my actions and thoughts even when out of meditation. I am experimenting with it, seeing how I act when i act in emptiness.

 

like,

doing the dishes in emptiness,

playing with the kids in emptiness,

walking to the bus in emptiness,

shopping groceries in emptiness.

 

Speaking to people in emptiness remains impossible...

 

Posting this in emptiness also seems to activate too much of my desire for gratification and curiosity to remain, as expected.

 

 

 

[[speaking to people in emptiness remains impossible...]]

 

Notice the difference - if a question is asked

 

 

[UTI]

[[speaking to people in emptiness remains impossible...]]

 

Notice the difference - if a question is asked

ah, yes, this is true. thank you, I had not thought about that!

Edited May 28, 2014 by UTI

[ChiDragon]

If one thinks eating ice cream in emptiness, then, one was not in emptiness at all....!!!

[UTI]

If one thinks eating ice cream in emptiness, then, one was not in emptiness at all....!!!

 

true

[exorcist_1699]

The setting is such:

 

I am sitting in meditation, my mind in emptiness practicing the elixir. In the kitchen my family is sitting eating icecream, delighting over the flavour.

Within the emptiness I make this observation:

 

 

.............................

 

I don't know if this is what is called the gate of mystery in taoism.

 

I have also noticed that recently, the gate is easier. It's like I can see through it, getting glimpses of the mystery even when I am not meditating. Feeling emptiness in my actions and thoughts even when out of meditation. I am experimenting with it, seeing how I act when i act in emptiness.

.................

 

It seems it is just some kind of initial tasting of an emptied mind, wandering outside the threshold of Taoist Magical gateway ( " 玄關 " ) ...far from having entered it . It is only after the material wall, which separates you and family, no longer blocks your sight of them , for example , can you claim of any accomplishment. Others : doing the dishes in emptiness, playing with the kids in emptiness,...are all your subjective experience which can't be relied on to make judgement .

 

In fact, most of the people even can't keep their achievement because of aging , limitation of their aspirations, ups and downs of their life ..etc., so regretfully, what they really get is a superficial taste of the mystery of Tao.

Edited June 5, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[UTI]

 

It seems it is just some kind of initial tasting of an emptied mind, wandering outside the threshold of Taoist Magical gateway ( " 玄關 " ) ...far from having entered it.

 

Yes, having had a while to feel over my experience (along with other things surrounding it) I have realized this. Finding my limitations is to me ase precious as achievement, so I am quite content all the same

 

The feeling of touching onto something new, taking a few steps back to see what it was (like a blind person feeling the texture of the wall just bumped into), and then resubmerging into practice and observation taking the new experience along at the same time as forgetting it was ever a new experience: that's pretty much what it's been so far. It's pretty much what I love. And perhaps it's as you say that this superficiality keeps one from entering fully. "the tao distances itself from noone, people distance themselves from the tao" (I think that's a Lu Dongbin quote). But circumstances change, and waiting for them to arise is part of the practice to me.

 

And my subjective experiences... yes, got a good lecture from my shifu on this just yesterday. I tend to see them as such first after I've woven a whole carpet of them. It's a lesson to be learned, to not make subjective interpretations of experiences, but to simply let them wash away and return to practice.

 

thank you!

[Stosh]

In order to remain sane , the mind has to create some indicator that what one is thinking of is not exactly the same as what one experiences from the senses at some given moment.

If the two were indistinguishable , daydreaming about a stroll in the park might leave you in the middle of a street.

Present moment experiences tend to have a great deal of power relative to recollection, and it needs to be that way, because when you remember , to an extent, you relive an experience you had,,,and while it may be very vivid , you generally can tell that this is not present moment experience.

You may recognize this dichotomy when in a dream state, when you recognize that you are dreaming, or overlook it when you meditate.

[fizix]

I
would say communicating "born" of emptiness. "Through emptiness" is an oxymoron, otherwise our definitions of emptiness are very different; but emptiness in the strict Tao-I sense is FORMLESS hence a non-communicable disease

[UTI]

I

would say communicating "born" of emptiness. "Through emptiness" is an oxymoron, otherwise our definitions of emptiness are very different; but emptiness in the strict Tao-I sense is FORMLESS hence a non-communicable disease

 

I used the term "through" emptiness because I tried to describe the sensation of communication between the empty mind and the non-empty mind at the threshold, and what happens when these are in disagreement over reality. But I agree, the experience was "born" in emptiness.

 

The experience of emptiness may be non-communicable, but does that mean that the process the mind goes through in emptiness is non-communicable? We can say how we feel after emptiness compared to before emptiness, so something has happened while being there. There's a process, even if the process is one of reduction (which it isn't) or surplus (which it isn't) and beyond measurability while we dwell in it. Can it be that the mind is on another "wavelength" in emptiness, and that is why we experience emptiness as emptiness? Can our "awake" mind can be taugh to work more often on that wavelength, bringing emptiness into being "awake"?

 

I sometimes feel like going into emptiness is somewhat like falling asleep, going from one state of mind to another. And, how we learn to be more conscious of falling into sleep and being aware of our dreaming, perhaps we also work to become "aware" of emptiness, and think on another wavelength. To have thoughts that are out of time, space, emotion, and logic.

 

Just a thought I've been having...

[manitou]

This is slightly off-track but something you said reminds me of something else, UTI.

 

When you say 'the mind is on another "wavelength" in emptiness - I have often thought this too. As to wavelengths and emptiness, doesn't it seem likely that all human brains are on the same wavelength, in general, and this is how the humans communicate with each other? And that all dogs are on the same wavelength and this is why they communicate with each other "in emptiness", or just through body language. And that all squirrels are on the same wavelength and this is why they have their own little universe?

 

This always brings me back to 'All being One', the only differences being between the wavelengths. the whole enchilada is just one big wavelength machine.

[Brian]

A rich melange of wavelengths.

 

Our receivers come from the factory tuned to just one but we can learn how to work the knobs and buttons...

[UTI]

Since this is becoming very interesting to me, I'd like to touch on another idea:

 

I can't claim I only experience one form of emptiness. earlier in this thread someone said emptiness goes into nuances, and I feel this is very true for my (current level of) experience. The clearest distinctions between states of emptiness I have is between the emptiness in the three dantian.

 

In the upper dantian there is an emptiness of time, like if when you shut off the logical, measuring mind you also become aware of existance without instance. There is a sense of limitlessness, and things formulate themselves beyond measure, experiences don't have a beginning and an end.

 

In the middle dantian there is an emptiness of space and movement. There is no direction, no distance, and no motion that is different from another. I can be anywhere in the emptiness, and at many times at once if I like. I experience no movement or emotion.

 

In the lower dantian there is an emptiness of form. All forms link into one another, and I can feel the walls of my percieved ebing melting together with the surroundings, becoming as big or small as I choose.

 

These three, when coinciding, is the emptiness I usually find myself in when everything happens as is required for it to happen. Through it the three dantian link together, and everything is one and nothing and everything simultaneously. It is in this emptiness I try to be and observe what happens to my "empty mind", and it is by focusing on the sensation of emptiness and alignment in the three dantian that I try to find a degree of it in my everyday actions.

 

This experience is obviously colored by how I have been practicing, and by my theoretical background in chinese medicine. These ideas are strongly linked to the ideas of jing qi and shen residing in the three dantian.

 

It would be interesting to hear of your experiences, if you partake in emptiness of different degrees, and how that comes to pass.

[manitou]

For me, my years of meditation - over 30 - has been the method of emptying the mind of all thoughts. This is thought-emptiness, but there is no 'feeling' of emptiness.

 

I only experienced a true "feeling of emptiness" that was almost painful - during one meditation where I got so far out there that NOTHING was around me. No presences, no stars, no planets -----the feeling was that I was all there was, hanging around out there in the dark, and it was a terrifying experience. I had felt my personality melt away, and the only thing that remained was my god-self. I felt like I was experiencing that which is at the base of all life, but totally unadorned. I've never felt lonelier in my life, it was horrible. If in fact God, the Dao, It, Spirit - whatever we want to call the life urge - If in fact It decided to manifest plurality from a place of loneliness, I can sure understand why after that meditation.

[UTI]

For me, my years of meditation - over 30 - has been the method of emptying the mind of all thoughts. This is thought-emptiness, but there is no 'feeling' of emptiness.

 

I only experienced a true "feeling of emptiness" that was almost painful - during one meditation where I got so far out there that NOTHING was around me. No presences, no stars, no planets -----the feeling was that I was all there was, hanging around out there in the dark, and it was a terrifying experience. I had felt my personality melt away, and the only thing that remained was my god-self. I felt like I was experiencing that which is at the base of all life, but totally unadorned. I've never felt lonelier in my life, it was horrible. If in fact God, the Dao, It, Spirit - whatever we want to call the life urge - If in fact It decided to manifest plurality from a place of loneliness, I can sure understand why after that meditation.

 

Sounds frightening.

 

If you had the same experience today, do you think it would be the same? Or could you experience it without fear?

[manitou]

No, I would experience it differently this time. I know a shaman in Santa Barbara who experienced the same thing (I forgot to mention in the other post that I felt that I had come to a membrane or something, like the edge of the universe). My shaman friend had the same thing happen and he actually poked his nose through the membrane.

 

I also must admit that I may have smoked a little weed before the meditation, lol.

 

It was just the strangest feeling - like there was no 'matter' anywhere - it was total isolation, and blacker than black. The loneliness physically hurt inside my shoulders, arms, chest, and stomach.

Edited June 10, 2014 by manitou

[Kajenx]

In order to remain sane , the mind has to create some indicator that what one is thinking of is not exactly the same as what one experiences from the senses at some given moment.

If the two were indistinguishable , daydreaming about a stroll in the park might leave you in the middle of a street.

Present moment experiences tend to have a great deal of power relative to recollection, and it needs to be that way, because when you remember , to an extent, you relive an experience you had,,,and while it may be very vivid , you generally can tell that this is not present moment experience.

You may recognize this dichotomy when in a dream state, when you recognize that you are dreaming, or overlook it when you meditate.

 

There's that middle state, too, where you can think about things and see them "in the vision". Maybe half asleep but fully aware? I just recently discovered this. It happens when I'm tired but trying to be mindful, haha.

 

@OP: Could you describe what you're referring to as emptiness? I'm reading a lot of dzogchen stuff lately, so it might be helpful to get another perspective. What you're describing sounds like it could be related to jhana in some way. I've noticed after a sharp turn into an altered state, I feel like a completely different person from who I was seconds before. You seem like you're referring to having two minds at once, though. What is communicating with what in emptiness?

 

EDIT: I see you already answered this mostly. I didn't notice the second page, lol. But maybe you could give a kind of basic definition, like is it a state of mind, a quality of reality that you notice, a way of seeing things differently, something else?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Kajenx

[Kajenx]

For me, my years of meditation - over 30 - has been the method of emptying the mind of all thoughts. This is thought-emptiness, but there is no 'feeling' of emptiness.

 

I only experienced a true "feeling of emptiness" that was almost painful - during one meditation where I got so far out there that NOTHING was around me. No presences, no stars, no planets -----the feeling was that I was all there was, hanging around out there in the dark, and it was a terrifying experience. I had felt my personality melt away, and the only thing that remained was my god-self. I felt like I was experiencing that which is at the base of all life, but totally unadorned. I've never felt lonelier in my life, it was horrible. If in fact God, the Dao, It, Spirit - whatever we want to call the life urge - If in fact It decided to manifest plurality from a place of loneliness, I can sure understand why after that meditation.

 

Have you ever heard of the jhanas, Manitou? (You probably have after 30 years of meditating, but I'm throwing this out there in case you haven't.) This sounds like a formless realm experience - perhaps the "sphere of infinite space" or "the sphere of nothingness". Was it preceded by any other experiences, like a feeling of the body dissolving into space, then an expansion of the mind, or did it seem to come from nowhere?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Kajenx