Water and Will Project - Documenting Liuhebafa and Yiquan and Other Topics

[GreytoWhite]

Yiquan and Liuhebafa have both drawn my interest, I've posted here on the Tao Bums for a few years and I have honestly learned a lot from this community. I just started a gofundme page for this project. I'll be donating my own time and effort to produce and research the podcast and hope to interview various martial arts instructors, meditation teachers, philanthropists, poets, musicians and artists. Please do not feel obligated to donate, I will be releasing the podcasts, interviews, and videos free of charge.

 

http://www.gofundme.com/5yw40o

 

Water and Will Project - Documenting Liuhebafa and Yiquan

 

My name is Matthew Parsons and my goal is to document two of China's internal martial art styles - Liuhebafa (Six Harmonies Eight Methods) and Yiquan (Mind/Will/Intention Boxing). The two arts intersected multiple times through the years and have influenced each other in various lineages. My first goal is to study Han shi Yiquan in Sacramento, California.

 

After gaining some proficiency with Han shi Yiquan I then hope to study with the Xinyi Meditation group in Manila, Philippines.After learning from the Xinyi Meditation group I would then like to study with Mok Kei Fai's group in Hong Kong. Another person I would like to meet is Paul Rogers in England who I hope can illuminate Zhao Daoxin's synthesis of neijia arts - xinhuizhang.

 

Other arts such as xingyiquan, baguazhang, and taijiquan have been better documented than liuhebafa. My goal is to provide more information about yiquan and liuhebafa in general as well as provide an in-depth look into lineage, kung fu as a whole, and how these arts may be integrated into modern sport fighting. I will be producing a podcast for this project to address internal martial arts, meditation, Daoism, performance poetry, literature, music, travels, and various other topics.

[Bearded Dragon]

Liuhebafa looks interesting. I saw some people practicing it when I was in Foshan. In terms of the movements it kind of looked like a mix of taiji and bagua.

 

Keep us updated .

[rideforever]

Until I read Jan Silberstorff's book on Chen I didn't think anyone really understood TaiChi, but it turns out somebody does.

As for LHBF I have heard many people talk about it.  They repeat exactly the same things.  They don't know anything.  They are attracted by some mystery and legends, but they don't know what they are doing.

It would be good if somebody good document some basic things like the difference between TaiChi movements, what the internal intention is, and compare that with LHBF movements.  Chosing some simpler universeally-agreed movements as examples.

This is a very basic thing.

But I would be very surprised (happily surprised) if a single person on the planet could do that.

Just a very basic thing, one TaiChi movement with the internal intention, and the same with one LHBF movemenent.

Such a simple thing.

[Earl Grey]

On 2/16/2020 at 8:00 PM, rideforever said:

Until I read Jan Silberstorff's book on Chen I didn't think anyone really understood TaiChi, but it turns out somebody does.

As for LHBF I have heard many people talk about it.  They repeat exactly the same things.  They don't know anything.  They are attracted by some mystery and legends, but they don't know what they are doing.

It would be good if somebody good document some basic things like the difference between TaiChi movements, what the internal intention is, and compare that with LHBF movements.  Chosing some simpler universeally-agreed movements as examples.

This is a very basic thing.

But I would be very surprised (happily surprised) if a single person on the planet could do that.

Just a very basic thing, one TaiChi movement with the internal intention, and the same with one LHBF movemenent.

Such a simple thing.

 

Except it already has been documented, but just not often available publicly or for free, let alone even in English.  

 

I do know English-speaking teachers who have done this, but you have already summarily dismissed them in multiple threads by reasoning out that you know from your DVD self-learning over their formal instruction, documented skills, and lineage. 

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Except it already has been documented, but just not often available publicly or for free, let alone even in English.

 

I really don't think so for the aforementioned reasons.

But prove me wrong ...

Edited February 22, 2020 by rideforever

[Earl Grey]

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

As I mentioned before the many teachers offering this, old and new, do not adequately remember the movements, their martial meaning nor the energetics.  They do different movements and those movements in different ways.  It is a badly fragmented tradition.

 

You do not have sufficient skills or understanding to make this assessment, which is 100% wrong.

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Like I have mentioned this is simply typical of all Chinese internal arts; even in the quite tightly integrated Chen style few people know what they are doing.  Chen Zhenglei for instance although he is joint patriarch with Chen Xiaowang actually practices different energetics.  And it is only CX who had clarified the energetic intent and specifics for each movement and for the style.  Some of the diagrams are in that Chen book.  According to him this reduces 20 years of study to 3 years.

I am fairly sure that for most other Tai Chi styles they don't have anyone who has actually done that.

 

The fact you said "all" is enough to make this statement false. 

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

As I mentioned earlier many of the well loved internal arts teachers are teaching in error, sometimes in grave error.  But then again if you make unicorn donuts in this world you will have a lot of customers who will swear you saved their life.

And nobody cares, that's fine.

But if this is the situation for Chen, how much worse is it for fragmented styles.

 

False comparison--just because you don't understand Liuhebafa doesn't mean that they are teaching in error. There are indeed those who teach it poorly and learned it poorly, but that doesn't mean that all of Liuhebafa is fragmented--it's just not widely available. 

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

My teacher is a teacher of Zen but my internal arts interest comes from 5 years full contact (that means full contact) of kung fu in London at WuShuKwan.  Every day I am doing about 90mins sitting and 2.5 hrs standing/internal arts.  

You frequently post that teacher who FaJins his students against a mattress, well great if that's what you want.

It's not what I want !

 

I post David Chan because he has skill and power--you insist that he "doesn't have 'it'" as far as you're concerned--except he does, you just have a terrible understanding of IMA and seem to think that removing the martial foundation and application is still going to give you what you're looking for--nope, it's no longer going to have that quality since that was its root.

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I am certain that all these secrets that people don't post publicly ... that is just total total total bullshit.

 

Nah--you just haven't humbled yourself enough to approach someone or be accepted by those who do know.

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

In fact they are still waiting for their own master to give them the trick they were promised 20 years ago !!!

They keep dangling this bullshit line so suckers stick with them for half their life expecting some miracle ... will never happen.

 

Except I did learn what was promised in four years and have been learning more.  Just like all my classmates.

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

You are foolish to think this ... don't you know much about human beings !!!!  When you buy Colgate you are supposed to end up screwing Elle McPherson - never happens.

 

Easy to say I'm a fool and claim I don't have it because you don't have what you keep complaining about not finding anywhere. There appears to be a causality between how often you open your mouth and how much further you get from finding what you want. 

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

What they at the most have is ... some energy trick ... you know the kind of thing, rotate your wrist 25degrees and you'll feel really powerful big man energy flowing through your balls.

 

I have a lot more than that and my own students not only can verify it, but can demonstrate more skills themselves, whereas you are doing a very good job of describing the wrist rotating movement you do at the keyboard--which happens to be a verb and a noun that describes what you do and who you are.

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Yeah ... maybe they do have that kind of trick, if that's what your waiting for.

 

 

I have an even better trick: knowing how to annoy the hell out of you every time you post an uninformed rant about not having any skill or not being able to learn anything from your DVDs and your issues with teachers.

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Sorry things are just much more simple than that.

 

 

They are quite simple: you're a whiner and you'll never learn anything that way, and you are a pest who goes around giving advice that leaves them worse off than they are if they didn't know anything before you opened your mouth. 

 

22 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I sense we are not going to agree much, you have your mattress and I have mine.

 

Doesn't have anything to do with agreement or differences of opinions--you're just wrong.

 

Also: you have nothing to show for all you've wasted on your DVDs and even more time wasted complaining again and again on this forum about what you don't have, don't know, and will never have or know either.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Earl Grey

[rideforever]

If you actually have an information on the energetics of LHBF please do tell ?

 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

If you actually have an information on the energetics of LHBF please do tell ?

 

 

What do you want to know? 

 

I respond best to politeness, humility, gratitude, and respect, which are always welcome moving forward, regardless of prior interactions. If you can do this, and actually want to ask questions to learn, not to go on long rants and dismiss facts, I might be able to help. 

[rideforever]

Why dont you choose some of the movements you are more sure about and describe the energetics of those movements and the relationship to the energetic goal of the tradition.

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Why dont you choose some of the movements you are more sure about and describe the energetics of those movements and the relationship to the energetic goal of the tradition.

 

Clarify what you are asking--I don't understand what you mean or what you are looking for as you use your own vocabulary that is not consistent with the technical vocabulary in internal arts, and what you imply you're looking for oftentimes is a lot different when you follow up to any answers given. 

 

I am sure about the dance as I've learned it. What energetics are you referring to and what specifically are you trying to understand? What do you mean by their relationship to the energetic goal? It's a martial art. The system has a function, but each lineage has a different goal, but usually the martial goal is defending yourself--how you get to that point and how you express it, however, are totally up to how you are taught and what you are learning, as well as who you lern from. 

[rideforever]

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

energetics 

 

Just take some of the movements from LHBF that you know well.  What are the energetics of those movements? This means in those movements what is the flow of energy from the LDT through the body, what is it doing inside.

What are the energetic goals and principles of LHBF as a whole, what is the energetic principle of activity of LHBF.  What is the final energy body of an LHBF practitioner.  How do the movements you chose relate to the final energy body of a LHBF practitioner.

 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

 

Just take some of the movements from LHBF that you know well.  What are the energetics of those movements? This means in those movements what is the flow of energy from the LDT through the body, what is it doing inside.

What are the energetic goals and principles of LHBF as a whole, what is the energetic principle of activity of LHBF.  What is the final energy body of an LHBF practitioner.  How do the movements you chose relate to the final energy body of a LHBF practitioner.

 

I will repeat: what do you mean by energetics?

 

Clarify YOUR definition and your understanding as to how you’d explain it because this answer can be explained in a variety of ways, but you have to be clear about what YOU specifically want to know. 
 

As for LDT, we do not focus on it at all in our lineage—it develops as a side effect, not because we focus on it.

 

Liuhebafa is simply compared to Taijiquan a means of fighting multiple opponents while hiding your intent, as Sifu Terry describes it, and as we describe it, it is as its name implies, the six harmonies.

 

Don’t dump vague or broad questions—specify, as you have a tendency to disregard the actual technical language used in IMA and use your own, and dismiss criteria given when it doesn’t match your expectations, which your above posts and in the other threads have shown.

 

It will be a lot easier explaining if you focus on specifics and elaborating on what you mean rather than assuming others don’t know or giving vague questions.

[rideforever]

Energetics it means inside any particular movement, what type of Qi movement is being trained.

 

Fighting multiple opponents whilst preserving the 6 harmonies ... is not something unique to LHBF, you could say that about many or all martial arts.

[Earl Grey]

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

Energetics it means inside any particular movement, what type of Qi movement is being trained.

 

 

You seem to be asking where the qi flows when we do the movement--this sounds like a question asking the health benefits of each individual movement. We don't train to see that, this is the kind of thing that health practitioners like Eric Isen see. We were trained to have qi follow the yi, the intent of the mind, from one form to the other for martial purposes. Whatever happens besides the martial aspect is a healthy side effect since health is not the goal of our Liuhebafa, but a side effect.

 

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

Fighting multiple opponents whilst preserving the 6 harmonies ... is not something unique to LHBF, you could say that about many or all martial arts.

 

You are both misquoting me and totally missing the point. I did not say this is unique to Liuhebafa itself, but in comparison to Taijiquan. It is the focus of Liuehebafa: fighting multiple opponents. Obviously there are arts like Baguazhang that teach fighting multiple opponents, but this is compared to Taiji, in addition to being able to hide intent until the very last minute before finishing a move. 

 

This is why talking with you is difficult: your assumptions and premature conclusions all completely either miss the point being made or deliberately ignore it entirely. Simplifying what you are saying would help.

 

The six harmonies and eight methods are there in the name--you rewire your body to be able to use the eight methods effectively, and it's not just an energetic thing, it's a physiological change through the eight methods you get trained in to rewire your body, at least as we do in Xin Yi. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Earl Grey

[rideforever]

Is there any martial art where you can't fight multiple opponents ?  No, or where the six harmonies are not used, no.

You don't know the purpose of LHBF, you don't even understand the question.

It's a typical thing.

If you think that the energetics of LHBF or TaiChi are for health reasons, then once again you don't understand the question, and you don't really understand what you are doing or why.

Health benefits are a byproduct. 

 

Each art uses particular energetic philosophy, for Chen it is very different philosophy for Yiquan or from LHBF.

They use different energy principles, they have different goals.

And the result on the practitioner is a very different energy body, it is a different spirit.

 

As I mentioned before, people don't care, they don't even realise there is something to know.

Most traditions are like this, they are like the Mary Celeste floating around the ocean with no crew, they just keep going on but nobody is home.

 

I had started to to think all internal arts were like this, but I have recently found some people who were also curious and also found the answers - which is great.  There are a few who do know.

Edited February 23, 2020 by rideforever

[senseless virtue]

11 minutes ago, rideforever said:

You don't know the purpose of LHBF, you don't even understand the question.

You are very good at projecting your own lack of understanding.

 

11 minutes ago, rideforever said:

It's a typical thing.

Yes. Projecting and stubborn ignorance have been glaringly typical of you.

[rideforever]

18 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

 

The greatest barrier to not having an answer, is not even having the question ...

Edited February 23, 2020 by rideforever

[Earl Grey]

25 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Is there any martial art where you can't fight multiple opponents ?  No, or where the six harmonies are not used, no.

You don't know the purpose of LHBF, you don't even understand the question.

It's a typical thing.

If you think that the energetics of LHBF or TaiChi are for health reasons, then once again you don't understand the question, and you don't really understand what you are doing or why.

As I mentioned before, people don't care, they don't even realise there is something to know.

Most traditions are like this, they are like the Mary Celeste floating around the ocean with no crew, they just keep going on but nobody is home.

But not all traditions are like this, as I mentioned.

The problem with people in general is they just enter into the habit of the people that did it before;  they aren't curious, and they want something superficial like power, they are not interested in the real meaning of things, or the soul of things. 

I had started to to think all internal arts were like this, but I have recently found some people who were also curious and also found the answers - which is great.

Horses for courses.

 

8 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

The greatest barrier to not having an answer, is not even having the question ... as Earl Grey is demonstrating.

So ... in the end I just asked straightforwardly ... no answer.  Are you going to jump in and defend him for the next 5 pages.  Why not just admit it.

Maybe you just aren't interested, no problem.

Anyway it's not personal ... everyone is like this, which is why progress is glacial.

 

 

Your communication skills are horrendous. Anyone's efforts to try and clarify don't result in your willingness to elaborate on what you mean, showing that you don't understand a damned thing you're talking about.

 

When they show they have a hard time understanding, it isn't because they have no knowledge of the internal arts, it's because they plain don't understand you.  

 

I know what I can do, I know what my lineage does, I know what has been achieved countless times with all other students in our school. We have power, skill, rooting, grounding, fajin, good health--things you will never get jumping from DVD to DVD or YouTube video to YouTube video, bitching and whining on every thread about how nobody understands. 

 

You will never have what you seek because all you do is complain and write off all those with any knowledge and power as being fakes whenever they refuse to adjust to your snotty attitude. 

 

Continue whining--that seems to be your best talent. 

[rideforever]

6 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I know what I can do, I know what my lineage does, I know what has been achieved countless times with all other students in our school. We have power, skill, rooting, grounding, fajin, good health--things you will never get jumping from DVD to DVD or YouTube video to YouTube video, bitching and whining on every thread about how nobody understands. 

 

You said you did know, so I asked you ... and you don't.

You keep asking me to simplify the question, or you never heard of the question before.

Look anyway ... maybe you don't care about these things, no problem.

 

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

You said you did know, so I asked you ... and you don't.

You keep asking me to simplify the question, or you never heard of the question before.

Look anyway ... maybe you don't care about these things, no problem.

 

 

Everyone who reads this thread can see who knows and who doesn't based on what questions you're asking, and your hostile responses to any attempts to make heads or tails of what you're rambling on about.

 

I have informed opinions because I read the texts, I have the lineage, I know the technical skills and history of the arts--and you have DVDs, YouTube videos, and beg for free information on this forum. 

 

Get the burnik out of your mouth, paré.  

Edited February 23, 2020 by Earl Grey

[rideforever]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Everyone who reads this thread

 

This is your biggest problem, you are always concerned about what people will think of you.

 

Maybe if you just calm down you might be interested in a deeper understanding of the traditions you follow.

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

This is your biggest problem, you are always concerned about what people will think of you.

 

Maybe if you just calm down you might be interested in a deeper understanding of the traditions you follow.

 

There is no indication I care about what others think. That was a response to you saying

 

56 minutes ago, rideforever said:

As I mentioned before, people don't care, they don't even realise there is something to know.

Most traditions are like this, they are like the Mary Celeste floating around the ocean with no crew, they just keep going on but nobody is home.

 

I had started to to think all internal arts were like this, but I have recently found some people who were also curious and also found the answers - which is great.  There are a few who do know.

 

Borrowing from Nungali:

 

 

I dub thee: RUDEFOREVER: PROJECTOR EXTRAORDINAIRE! 

 

 

[rideforever]

35 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Everyone who reads this thread

 

You write this kind of thing a lot.  "if anyone reads this thread they will know I am right".

It's impossible to have a conversation with you when you are so concerned about such things.

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

You write this kind of thing a lot.  "if anyone reads this thread they will know I am right".

It's impossible to have a conversation with you when you are so concerned about such things.

I am not concerned with what they think. I am merely relating that you’re quite certain of yourself, but from an outsider looking in, you look like a tempestuous child.

It is more like it’s impossible to have any conversation with you because you can’t communicate anything even close to something coherent while assuming your knowledge of the internal arts is superior if someone doesn’t accede to your ridiculous criteria that has nothing to do with the actual criteria for the internal arts...supot ka.

 

Anyway; I have my skills, my students and my teachers have it, and you can keep begging for things and getting mad that you’ll never have anything because of your stupidity, especially when acting like you don’t want it—a lot like a kid who thinks reading literature is a waste of time because he can’t comprehend anything that doesn’t have a wiki or YouTube tutorial.  

Edited February 23, 2020 by Earl Grey

[rideforever]

Get that Chen book, maybe you'll understand what I am talking about.