Water and Will Project - Documenting Liuhebafa and Yiquan and Other Topics

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Get that Chen book, maybe you'll understand what I am talking about.

I have all those books, and YOU are the one who shows a complete inability to comprehend what’s in there.  
 

People answer whatever they understand through your incoherent words, and you get what you asked for, not what you want to hear, bub.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Earl Grey

[rideforever]

You can't answer simpler questions about your style.

You keep asking me to simplify my really complex question !  It's not complex.

Please don't ask any more.

As I said most practitioners have no idea what they are doing internally, and you are an exceptional example. 

You are a teacher aren't you ?

You think it's okay not to know do you ?

 

I am only grateful that there are some people out there who do use their brain once in a while, like Chen Xiaowang.

In the case of LHBF the ShouyuLiang school has attempted to put back the fine details of LHBF in their work, because they realise how much has been lost.

It's the same in Hong Kong where it is still a living tradition and they have all the details of the movements, and its purpose within the tradition.

 

You mentioned of all people Terry Dunn !  Of the very large stack of LHBF I have here, he was the first I bought.  His understanding is probably the worst because he learnt it from an old Chinese man who had lost all the details of the movements.  Not only that but TD has put some strange spacey ambient music in the material ... as he is performing it .. .what does that mean ?
It means he thinks it's some sort of mystical final internal arts destination ... like he is gonna be some celestial dragon  .... so get the music on.

Unfortunately he has no idea what he is doing and all his movements have lost all the details.

You compare that with the Lian school were each movement is sharp and has a meaning and purpose and you start to see that TD is like moving jelly.

I know ... you love him, just like you like the mattress fajin guy.

Great, enjoy.

 

But hey everyone loves TD, especially when he does all his breathing-concentration-interruption exercises that will damage you like nothing else.  Like I said if you make unicorn donuts you will have a big crowd begging for them.

I am probably lucky that I don't need to make any money out of this so I can just say the truth.

Once your income comes from these things ... who can afford to be honest.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by rideforever

[Earl Grey]

29 minutes ago, rideforever said:

You can't answer simpler questions about your style.

You keep asking me to simplify my really complex question !  It's not complex.

Please don't ask any more.

As I said most practitioners have no idea what they are doing internally, and you are an exceptional example. 

You are a teacher aren't you ?

You think it's okay not to know do you ?

Such is mankind.

Oh, I get it! I know who you are now.

 

You are THAT guy.

 

The guy who digs for ass nuggets and wonders why nobody wants to shake your hands after, then gets mad at THEM.

The guy who goes to a doctor to see what’s wrong, and calls the doctor a fraud because you didn’t get a pap smear when you requested one or explain to you why you can’t get one in a satisfactory manner since you believe it should come with every visit like a lollipop (you think they’re the same thing).

 

The guy who found everything on Google and concluded that the Holocaust never happened because it wasn’t in any official records and calls everyone else a schemer creating a Zionist conspiracy.

 

The guy who goes up to a bunch of Hell’s Angels at a pub trying to look tough who brags about having a good paparazzi in your garage because you think a paparazzi is a high end motorcycle.

 

I see how it is. Okay.  

Edited February 23, 2020 by Earl Grey

[rideforever]

The difference between someone with real attainment ... and the rest ... is simply that you recognize that you don't know, you can't answer the question.  And then you go find the answers.

That's the secret.

Other people want to be celestial dragons and dream of amazing things ... and in this amazing tricks they dream about, don't even notice they can't answer simple questions.

[Earl Grey]

Just now, rideforever said:

The difference between someone with real attainment ... and the rest ... is simply that you recognize that you don't know, you can't answer the question.  And then you go find the answers.

That's the secret.

Other people want to be celestial dragons and dream of amazing things ... and in this amazing tricks they dream about, don't even notice they can't answer simple questions.

And yet you still fail to realize that sir, this is an Arby’s.

[Earl Grey]

This is Rubeforever’s script:

 

Rube: ”Can someone tell me how a BLT affects the chakras after I do Taijj?”

 

Teach: ”That has nothing to do with Taiji.”

 

Rube: ”You are a fraud! You should know!”

 

Teach: ”I teach Taiji. I am not a nutritionist.”

 

Rube: ”Well, of course you should know! After all, people who do yoga know how to make chakra boosting juices!”

 

Teach: ”Okay, what are you really trying to ask?”

 

Rube: ”You should know! It’s obvious! You just aren’t a real master even if you know how to fight and won a few tournaments; REAL Taiji masters know which gods talk to you when you do specific movements! It’s as obvious as grape jelly on anchovies pizza!”

 

Teach: ”I don’t get what you’re trying to ask.”

 

Rube: ”See? Simple questions! You can’t even answer! Fraud!”

 

Teach: ”Okay....” 🙄

[rideforever]

Yes Earl Grey ... "if anyone reads this thread they will know I am right". Okay mate that's great.

 

I asked those questions of you about LHBF, if you ever find the answers please do let us know that would be useful.

Other people are working on them, if you don't have time no problem.

[Earl Grey]

11 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Yes Earl Grey ... "if anyone reads this thread they will know I am right". Okay mate that's great.

 

I asked those questions of you about LHBF, if you ever find the answers please do let us know that would be useful.

Other people are working on them, if you don't have time no problem.

 

More like  Do you realize you're using a tampon on your face instead of a napkin, or do you not care how idiotic you look?

 

Your questions show no understanding of what you are even trying to ask, so until then, continue wasting your time. 

[rideforever]

You don't like the questions.  And you don't have any answers.

Okay ... stay that way then.

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, rideforever said:

You don't like the questions.  And you don't have any answers.

Okay ... stay that way then.

 

No, I don't know what you're trying to ask as I've said, and when I ask you clarify, you refuse to do so, and don't like the actual answers I give as best as I can. 

 

Again, you can do this dance all day and night and get nowhere, but it will never change the fact you don't know what you don't know, but when given answers from people with relevant experience and qualifications, you don't like what you hear.

 

In the meanwhile, I'm happy to stay as I am, just as my own teachers and students are happy to remain this way, because it keeps busybodies and freeloaders like you out of our hair. 

[senseless virtue]

Really good and clear questions coming through! Let's use the opportunity to rise above and let rideforever continue his lonely arguments on his way to the sunset of all reason and meaning.

 

Why is LHBF an authentic art and not a concocted derivative of Taijiquan or other IMAs?

 

Some people peddle Taijiquan as a type of Qigong that they call Taiji. The essential aspect of it seems to be to reduce it to sequences of "single movements" that stimulate meridians like Baduajin variations are designed to. Why is such mentality a distraction to training real martial arts and martial spirit?

 

Why are the health effects and alchemical results of IMAs many degrees more sublime than what run-of-the-mill Baduajin variants endow?

 

How does the alchemy of LHBF differ from Taijiquan? How are their martial spirits different?

 

What are the esoteric aspects of LHBF (if any can be disclosed)?

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, virtue said:

Why is LHBF an authentic art and not a concocted derivative of Taijiquan or other IMAs?

 

 

Depends on how you define "authentic". Does it work? Yes. Is it unique? Yes. Does it have lineage? Yes. Does it have history? Yes.

 

If someone considers it a derivative of Taiji or other IMAs, technically speaking, the internal world is not that big, and there are both the potential for overlap and interaction with schools that influence one another. Chen Yiren and Wang Xiangzhai both influenced one another and in turn their student became the grandmaster of our lineage, bringing the principles of skill for the former and power for the latter while using Liuhebafa as the base form to express Xin Yi.

 

7 minutes ago, virtue said:

Some people peddle Taijiquan as a type of Qigong that they call Taiji. The essential aspect of it seems to be to reduce it to sequences of "single movements" that stimulate meridians like Baduajin variations are designed to. Why is such mentality a distraction to training real martial arts and martial spirit?

 

Oh boy, this looks like several questions.

 

People don't realize Taijiquan is a martial art and always has been, but there is Taiji the philosophy as well as Taiji the skill, and Taiji as the formal name for what people call the symbol "that yin and yang thing". 

 

Historically, in the most bastardized summary I've seen, what was taught in the Qing dynasty is the movements and forms, but none of the internal power, so that no foreign devils would have access to power or secrets. The delusion that it had power was a practical joke, and made worse a century later by the communist party of China promoting many "internal arts" that look closer to ballet choreography than the few masters and systems with actual internal power.

 

What you see in the parks is derived from a bastardized version of an already watered-down practice that has almost no martial applications and uses platitudes that reveal the absence of any understanding or skill, and still gets worsened by advertising culture with things like Tai Cheng: https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/28585-tai-cheng-infomercial-2013-cheez-whiz-or-what.

 

The people with actual skills, like Glenn Hairston, for example, get straight to the point about how and why Taijiquan works as a martial art. 

 

 

The Taiji taught for health isn't bad--it just isn't the Supreme Ultimate that people think it is, and that is fine, but only if they're after health as it has documented clinical benefits from helping with Parkinson's to recovering from chemotherapy, though it's closer to qigong than it is to a martial art, and one of my teachers knows both Taijiquan as a martial art and Medical Tai Chi.

 

As people get lost in the details or misunderstanding which Taiji they are doing or even if their teacher is legitimate (i.e. knows what the hell they are talking about), a person who is learning Taiji for health but is really doing Tai Cheng is getting a Tae Bo workout, and a person who thinks they have ultimate power is probably like Jake Mace:

 

 

33 minutes ago, virtue said:

Why are the health effects and alchemical results of IMAs many degrees more sublime than what run-of-the-mill Baduajin variants endow?

 

Speaking only for the styles I know and practice, there's holistic work done. Some people do Baduanjin only, but don't sit in golden flower or stand in Zhan Zhuang, and some people who think they are doing Zhan Zhuang are just standing on a plank and balancing. 

 

For what I do, we breathe, we stand, we sit, we rest, we have forms, and we live life. Understanding is in the proper doing that leads to proper knowing. You can have proper knowing, but not have the proper doing or proper being. It's a common trick for masters to troll people who don't pass their character tests to get the right verbal explanation, but not teach them the actual correct way of applying the skill, such as someone teaching pranayama from a YouTube video they watched the morning earlier before meeting you in the afternoon and saying it's Tai Chi Breathing and an ancient indoor student technique. 

 

36 minutes ago, virtue said:

How does the alchemy of LHBF differ from Taijiquan? How are their martial spirits different?

 

 

Depends on the lineage. I speak only for the Xin Yi Meditation school with Liuhebafa and for The Tao Applied with Taijiquan. 

 

I don't know what you mean by alchemy, but for sake of simplicity, alchemy is not the term we use in Xin Yi, we just call it the rewiring process, which starts from joints and tendons and all the way to muscles and fascia, then the organs and mind. In my Taiji lineage, the alchemy comes from several key meditations and a simple version of Taiji form based on the original form that wasn't even 13 moves. 

 

The martial spirit of what I have learned is deception through Liuhebafa and hiding intention, and from Taijiquan I've found gentle power and force through the application of the Taiji philosophy in physical movements, knowing that if I am pushing an opponent, I also have to pull in some regard, or if I strike, I must also defend simultaneously. 

 

Most of my understanding is expressed physically rather than verbally, which is why I just have people do the practices and ask questions before so I guide them progressively and slowly since the internal arts don't follow a strict linear progression as they are also tied to an individual's learning and body adapting. 

 

42 minutes ago, virtue said:

What are the esoteric aspects of LHBF (if any can be disclosed)?

 

I have shared a few throughout the forum, but dream work is pretty common. Shuigong and Liuhebafa both share lineage with Chen Tuan in Hua Shan if that says anything...  

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, virtue said:

..

 

Good, these are good questions.  Well done, somebody has a brain.

So what are the answers then, not bullshit talk ... what are the actual answers.

 

Chen Training

For Chen, it is not a "meridien stimulation".  They are training the Dantien Qi to leave the belly and circulate through the body and then to return to the Dantien, cultivating a qi body of circular Qi-tracks. 

They have a particular training plan which involves 10 tracks in the basic patterns, and 10 other tracks in the advanced pattern.

The result is a regular 3 dimensional qi pattern - like an atom with the electrons circulating around.  It is simple circular and very contained.

It is a spiritual art because it cultivates the Dantien centre directly.

Those are some answers that come from the CX tradition which are detailed in  that "Chen" book with diagrams and training sequences.  This is one of them.

 

 

Dantien-mind Training

After the 20 tracks are learnt from ChanSiGong, then the long forms are learnt; each form is divided into 80 or so mini-forms ... in each mini-form the Qi leaves the Dantien, circulates, and returns to the Dantien.  The movements are of many shapes which allows the energy-mind of the Dantien to train itself to perform any kind of shape.  This is similar to using your mind to do many types of numerical calculations, addition, multiplication and so on.  The different movements train the energy-mind so that it becomes fully trained.

Eventually the energy-mind moves on its own from your will-instinct.

 

Phases in Internal Arts Training

The book describes excellently this step by step phased training which can be used for all of the internal arts. The book describes much more than I can put here.

 

Yiquan Training

For instance in Yiquan there work with the Dantien field of the body as a whole, not with the circulation of the Dantien; and in Yiquan there is a lot of Awareness practice coming from the head so they train Awareness plus the body field of qi. 

In Chen there is not much need for Awareness training as the Belly is trained to work on its own.

 

Liuhebafa Style

For LHBF it is very different from those styles.  Firstly because it is fragmented it is important to remember that many people have lost the details of the art and don't know much what they are doing.

But you can certainly say that it involves lost of vertical compression/depression that is the released horizontally, it is the exchange of qi from vertical to horizontal.  In other words you build up qi pressure vertically ... and then release horizontally.  Some of the movements are like that.  Other movements are splitting, and reconnecting, like tying a bow.  Another aspect may be about circulating the water element which is how the opening movement is often done open the lake below and rising to above the head; there is also kind of pulse or wave of energy rolling through the body which is water esque.

Whether it is Dantien based or not I cannot say, some movements do appear to exit and return to the Dantien others do not.

 

Pure LHBF vs Mixed LHBF

It may be that there was a pure LHBF, but that other people are using LHBF as a container to add together various techniques from Bagua and Xingyi, and practice them all together - which makes it hard to see the pure style.  I notice that some movements that are done Xingyi-fashion are done non-Xingyi by other schools, so I think that was added in and not the pure style : Wang Xiangzhai used to tell his students to sometimes train LHBF (identifying it as a different style), so I think those students left some Xingyi and Yiquan aspects in LHBF, which are not pure LHBF.  The fact that WXZ recommended LHBF training on the side means that it is a compatible tradition and must have similarities with Yiquan; imo Chen is not compatible as the tight circular movements don't play well with LHBF.

Also there is this rising palm-up spear-hand that seems to be foundational for the style and is in many moves; again showing the vertical movements that are foundational for the style.

 

I don't know of any Alchemy for Chen.  For LHBF I don't know of any either.  It doesn't look alchemical to me.  Often people imagine Alchemy because they don't understand that it is simpler than that.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by rideforever

[senseless virtue]

@Earl Grey Thank you for your thoughts. I found your answers detailed and insightful.

 

Am I understanding correctly that in the IMA context it would for example be more sensible and infinitely more practical to speak of internal force pressing your opponent downwards with certain motion than stubbornly asking detailed knowledge how does this pressing motion affects the practitioner's vital energy?

 

Would you further care to explain why does the IMA tradition speak of holistic internal force almost always instead of narrowing down on particular energetic wirings or specific means to generate energy?

 

Despite the lack of common language in different traditions, is it not true that the valid IMAs when well trained always impart tangible spiritual benefits of calm heart and bliss-joy? Are the physical changes practitioners go through convergent across the field of IMAs or otherwise similar to what spiritual Daoist yogis might go through?

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, virtue said:

@Earl Grey Thank you for your thoughts. I found your answers detailed and insightful.

 

Am I understanding correctly that in the IMA context it would for example be more sensible and infinitely more practical to speak of internal force pressing your opponent downwards with certain motion than stubbornly asking detailed knowledge how does this pressing motion affects the practitioner's vital energy?

 

Would you further care to explain why does the IMA tradition speak of holistic internal force almost always instead of narrowing down on particular energetic wirings or specific means to generate energy?

 

Despite the lack of common language in different traditions, is it not true that the valid IMAs when well trained always impart tangible spiritual benefits of calm heart and bliss-joy? Are the physical changes practitioners go through convergent across the field of IMAs or otherwise similar to what spiritual Daoist yogis might go through?

Typically, if you’re just studying the art itself, most of your tasks are spent doing the practice, and it can fill up days and weeks. Xin Yi alone can fill many notebooks and require lots of planning to get everything I learned into my schedule to keep my skills fresh and growing. 
 

The people who are verbose tend to be martial scholars. Some, like Sifu Terry, have mentioned that the scholarly path causes his skill to be impacted as he is doing many things and can’t practice it all at once every day while still preserving the history of each system he inherited and represents. Others are scholars with no skill whatsoever because they translate the texts and release niche books on the subject.

 

So if you really want to do well, it’s nice to know these things, but you are tested in life, not with a multiple choice quiz or essay writing.

 

As for specific energetics, I can’t speak for all, but if you consider that in Xin Yi, we fight with no mind because the body is rewired to react faster than we think in an intelligent and martial manner. Just because someone teaches a technique in MMA on how to take down kicks doesn’t mean I’ll know how to counter that and teach that technique—there will be dozens of ways to counter, but only in the heat of the moment will I know what I will do. I’m basically a passenger as the body becomes like an AI that analyzes the situation and responds appropriately for me.

 

As for bliss and joy, I’ve felt it and a spiritual kind of development, but I’m not a saint, I just know and experience the universe with a new set of senses as though every atom of my being perceives things with hyper awareness in the physical and metaphysical dimensions. That awareness can inspire spiritual growth, but it just makes me feel that I’m comfortable with being authentic with myself without worrying about what others think, though I do have self-awareness to consider how they feel, just like I pointed out to rudeforever that he’s got ZERO self-awareness for his juvenile behavior.

 

I suppose you can develop similar conclusions for those in Taoist yogic practices, because the skills aren’t mutually exclusive, but the means of acquiring those skills are, and the end result leads to a variety of outcomes that require an entirely different definition of healing or enlightenment.