Mastering the emotions

[3bob]

Several people have invested a lot in this string, I'm just dropping in and dropping out, being that imo the opening post is grossly false.

[Brian]

Yes Kajenx, I could see the Buddhism in the words you were sharing with us. And that's great if it is working for you.

 

 

To Brian: Your worldview? Does that mean "your subjective interpretation of the objective"?

Something along those lines...

[Marblehead]

Several people have invested a lot in this string, I'm just dropping in and dropping out, being that imo the opening post is grossly false.

But 3bob, that's why I finally got involved in the discussion. The opening post certainly is not Taoist and I would think that it isn't Buddhist either.

 

Expressing our emotions is good. Even the Dali Lama expresses his. A jolly fellow, he is.

[Marblehead]

Something along those lines...

Hehehe. Just checking.

[Stosh]

Several people have invested a lot in this string, I'm just dropping in and dropping out, being that imo the opening post is grossly false.

Thats pretty general , could you just pick an item or angle you really dont concur with to exemplify?

[3bob]

awareness going outward can be described as, "to go on is to be far", as in the permutations of the 10,000, -yet then "to be far is to return" as in awareness going inward towards fewer and fewer permutations of Tao . (quotes from TTC. 25)

Edited June 11, 2014 by 3bob

[Kajenx]

@Marblehead: Not to be picky, but I never said not to express emotions. Consider this, if a person has no desires, what emotions would they feel?

 

@3bob: It might be worth the time to skim a few of my other posts. I've tried to clear up some of the main objections/misconceptions. I don't think I've been able to communicate what I intended to very well, but theres not much more I can say at this point. ^^

 

@stosh: I'm only on the tablet right now so I'll try to come back later and attempt a comparison.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Kajenx

[GrandmasterP]

Time for cake and tea perhaps?

Anyone fancy a cuppa tea?

Very calming is tea.

Edited June 11, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Brian]

Enjoying one myself at the moment!

[GrandmasterP]

This cup reads...

When in doubt drink tea

Edited June 11, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

@Marblehead: Not to be picky, but I never said not to express emotions. Consider this, if a person has no desires, what emotions would they feel?

Okay. Just checking for clarification.

 

Emotions without desire? How about friendship? Or many the causing of a smile upon viewing a flower? Or perhaps anticipation upon receiving notification of a new PM? Oh!, so many. I can look at a really nice sports car and feel emotions of feelings of driving it. (No, can't talk about the pretty women - I don't do them any more.)

[Kajenx]

If you don't have any desires, why would being with someone be different from being without them? Why would seeing a flower be different from seeing a rotting corpse or a pile of used plastic containers? Why would recieving a PM or driving a sports car be different from sitting quietly in an empty and featureless room?

 

I'm talking about perfect contentment that relies on nothing at all. Everything is equal until the mind makes divisions. These divisions are the cause of stress, not anything in the world. We make our own limitations by choosing to call some things good and others bad. Emotionlessness is one way of describing the mind that has gone beyond this process. This mind is free from emotional thinking, not supressing emotions or removing them. Emotion simply becomes a meaningless word because everything is perfect and nothing is seen as more valuable, more interesting, or more worthwhile than anything else. This is not a cold or empty feeling, it is a feeling of completeness, perfection, being beyong the poles of judements. Everyone is your friend, even solitude. Everything is as beautiful as a flower and as exciting as driving a sports car. Using these words is wrong, because excitement and beauty and love are divisive and stressful by comparison, but if you haven't seen the mind-state I'm referring to, then it's the best I can do to describe it.

[Marblehead]

I "must" respond to this. You are doing very well even though we have some disagreements.

If you don't have any desires, why would being with someone be different from being without them?

There would be no difference. Peace & contentment are within and not reliant on any externals.

 

Why would seeing a flower be different from seeing a rotting corpse or a pile of used plastic containers?

Well, I know that a flower will smell nice and that a rotting corpse will smell bad. But Tao is in both. This means there is no difference between the two to the universe. But to me, the flower needs no attending to, but the corpse should be buried in order to prevent diseases.

 

Why would recieving a PM or driving a sports car be different from sitting quietly in an empty and featureless room?

No difference whatever.

 

I'm talking about perfect contentment that relies on nothing at all.

Good luck with that perfect thing. Even our peace and contentment relies on our mentality.

 

Everything is equal until the mind makes divisions. These divisions are the cause of stress, not anything in the world. We make our own limitations by choosing to call some things good and others bad. Emotionlessness is one way of describing the mind that has gone beyond this process. This mind is free from emotional thinking, not supressing emotions or removing them. Emotion simply becomes a meaningless word because everything is perfect and nothing is seen as more valuable, more interesting, or more worthwhile than anything else. This is not a cold or empty feeling, it is a feeling of completeness, perfection, being beyong the poles of judements. Everyone is your friend, even solitude. Everything is as beautiful as a flower and as exciting as driving a sports car. Using these words is wrong, because excitement and beauty and love are divisive and stressful by comparison, but if you haven't seen the mind-state I'm referring to, then it's the best I can do to describe it.

I disagree with the rest of this because I cannot separate myself from my mind. And I suggest that no one else can either. Consciousness and awareness reside in the mind. Without the mind we are considered brain-dead. A Zombie.

 

But you did almost touch on something I could have agreed with and that is that we should observe everything in the universe for what it is and not add our subjective values to it. But I still have my personal preferences.

 

Actually, I don't disagree with your base concept. It is just the method you are speaking of that I disagree with. I think that to deny ourself of our emotions will bring on more stress than our brain and heart can handle.

[3bob]

Kajenx,

 

Frankly that sounds like more of, and some kind of half-baked variation of nihilism.

 

The point is not emotionlessness it is purified emotion which has many aspects, for instance and to name one is a compassion free of any lower emotional conditions or shifting permutations added on, in other words a compassion that is as stable as a rock in its spiritual desire - and such purified emotion goes hand in hand with purified mind/thought or wisdom. As for Buddhism imo the Buddha used words and meanings pointing to the "wonder of wonders" which is not an "emotionlessness" but the deepest and purest emotion/wisdom of dharma fulfilled and realized, which btw does RELY on dharma. (and or is dharmic)

Edited June 12, 2014 by 3bob

[johndoe2012]

What Kajenx is talking about is the awareness that is before any conceptualization is done hence perfect.

 

About 1/3 of a second after sensory contact conceptualization starts which is why good concentration is needed.

 

Even cognitive therapy acknowledges this delay in understanding automatic reactions.

[Marblehead]

What Kajenx is talking about is the awareness that is before any conceptualization is done hence perfect.

 

About 1/3 of a second after sensory contact conceptualization starts which is why good concentration is needed.

 

Even cognitive therapy acknowledges this delay in understanding automatic reactions.

But I have been there for a good number of years already. Sometimes I just experience, express my emotions, and then let it pass without any thought.

 

Chuang Tzu said: (paraphrase) ... to smile without thinking how one should smile.

 

But these states are not permanent. And they don't last very long because most of us are busy living life and doing things that require conscious thought.

[johndoe2012]

But I have been there for a good number of years already. Sometimes I just experience, express my emotions, and then let it pass without any thought.

 

Chuang Tzu said: (paraphrase) ... to smile without thinking how one should smile.

 

But these states are not permanent. And they don't last very long because most of us are busy living life and doing things that require conscious thought.

 

I understand.

 

Anyway, as the wise says, if it is a state it is not what we are looking for since it changes.

 

We should look for the unchangeable.

 

Not that I have found it yet.

[soaring crane]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35188-motherblastingfrikkafrakkin-horseflies/

 

relevant to the discussion?

 

There are limits to everything and sometimes you just have to man up.

 

Emotions are important and it's unhealthy to wipe them out of your life.

[Marblehead]

We should look for the unchangeable.

 

Not that I have found it yet.

Yeah, that's inside somewhere.

[Kajenx]

Thank you all for the discussion, but I'm not sure there's anything more I can add. I think it's probably best to assume that I can't properly explain what I'm talking about. I will continue to practice and maybe make another thead in a few months or years stating whether I've been successful in reaching my goal. I have read of a few people who have gotten where I think this is leading, and they talk about a spontaneously perfected reality. This is what I've found. While it IS seen as a state in my current experience, because it comes and goes, what has extended it over time is applying it to what I would consider "mundane" reality. It's a frame of mind, not a state of mind because it absorbs all states. If enlightenment exists at all, there is obviously something that changes. That change has to be able to account for all situations, yes, but it doesn't mean the mind is unchanged. After what I've seen, I don't think I could settle for calling anything else the "end". There really is a way to free the mind from all desires, and it really is as good as the mythology claims. It has one taste - complete freedom.

[C T]

Thank you all for the discussion, but I'm not sure there's anything more I can add. I think it's probably best to assume that I can't properly explain what I'm talking about. I will continue to practice and maybe make another thead in a few months or years stating whether I've been successful in reaching my goal. I have read of a few people who have gotten where I think this is leading, and they talk about a spontaneously perfected reality. This is what I've found. While it IS seen as a state in my current experience, because it comes and goes, what has extended it over time is applying it to what I would consider "mundane" reality. It's a frame of mind, not a state of mind because it absorbs all states. If enlightenment exists at all, there is obviously something that changes. That change has to be able to account for all situations, yes, but it doesn't mean the mind is unchanged. After what I've seen, I don't think I could settle for calling anything else the "end". There really is a way to free the mind from all desires, and it really is as good as the mythology claims. It has one taste - complete freedom.

After reading thru your posts, it appears that you are on the right track.

 

Having said that... some do actually forget there is no real destination, just a continuum of refining union of method (form/compassion - relative) and wisdom (emptiness - absolute) thru deeper and deeper connections with the 3 Jewels arising not as blind faith or a feeble reliance on dogma, but a growing assurance and living faith (as a result of overcoming doubts) that freedom is already there, and doing more or doing less does not enhance or diminish it in any measure. The 3 Jewels is the basis for the sustenance/nourishment of this freedom.

 

By virtue of the relative, we maintain the discipline and ethics of correct practice vis-a-vis Right View and so on. By virtue of the absolute, we let go of even that, just like putting aside the boat after we have crossed a river.

 

I know this is the Taoist section, so thats all i want to input.

 

Pardon my intrusion.

 

May your path be free of obstacles.

[Kajenx]

I like you sig CT. I'll try to remember to forget about goals. Seems like thats the fastest way there anyway, haha.

[Marblehead]

I know this is the Taoist section, so thats all i want to input.

What you presented was excellent, I think.

[C T]

What you presented was excellent, I think.

Thank you sincerely, MH. Im very happy it resonated well with you.

[Stosh]

Ct , youre not an intruder in this section IMO, never have been, though perhaps youve not felt welcomed.

 

Anyway , Im just finding a bit odd , so many different voices suggesting that a person is basically going in a right direction, and at least one saying the reverse, but the person himself is saying he feels he is being misunderstood .. by them. hmmmm

 

Complete freedom IS nothing left to lose..

Edited June 13, 2014 by Stosh