Mastering the emotions

[3bob]

Well maybe some folks in the Buddhist forum could give you some more useful Buddhist type answers, which it seems you are looking for? Anyway my take and for instance is like that of the Isa Upanishad and others found in the Vedanta forum if you want to check it out? (Btw, I see a lot of common ground between Vedanta and Taoism) Btw#2, It sounds like are you referring to considering and comparing conceptual definitions, which as you must well know only go as far as that kind of "mind-frame" or frame of mind; whereas Truth and its Freedom are not abstract in the least.

Edited June 16, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Let's try to not get too far away from the Taoist view of this subject. The Buddhist view can be discussed in the Buddhist forum. Thanks.

[3bob]

this string may be in the Taoist forum but it sounds to me like the op has been coming from a Buddhist type of view since the beginning...or first post.

[Marblehead]

Agree. I have been gritting my teeth through the whole thing. Do you think the thread would be better served if it were moved to the Buddhist Discussions forum?

[C T]

The emphasis in Buddhism, for example, is on non-attachment, which some may confuse with detachment. There is a very subtle difference between these two concepts, but a difference exist nonetheless.

 

Its very difficult, if not impossible, for a normal functioning person to be emotionless.

 

I have never come across any advice by Buddhist masters or teachings encouraging the eradication of emotions. But i'm not really well-studied, so who knows, my view could be completely without basis.

[ChiDragon]

IMHO Mastering emotions is in both Buddhism and Taoism. One of the canons is not to be easily getting upset from a Buddhist point of view. In Taoism, it is to be in a state of stillness(靜) which is emotionless(Wu Wei).

Edited June 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[3bob]

Good points CT., and I may have ben stereotyping some but not completely...

[Marblehead]

And I just want this to be a good discussion as it is concerning a concept that should be fully discussed.

[Kajenx]

Well, 3bob asked me who this "I" was that I kept referring to. Anatta is a buddhist concept, not a Taoist one as far as I know. That's why I asked... I've been interested in Taoism for almost 10 years now, and I've been studying buddhism for about 5 months, haha. A friend of mine considers himself buddhist, and he really disliked most of these ideas I've talked about. I have a feeling this thread wouldn't be any more relevant/accepted in the buddhist forum. I just tried some buddhist language because I thought it might help to have a different take on the idea. Maybe what I'm doing is just someting completely different.

 

Recently I came across something called "Actual Freedom" that seemed to fit the bill, but the guy who started that insists it has nothing to do with enlightenment (which he seems to consider a dirty word) and is actually a "third option". I don't really know, end of the day. After this thread, I'm wondring if it really isn't just something new - which really makes me wonder what enlightenment is. What do you guys consider the "goal" to be? Like, assuming a genie came to you and could grant you instant perfect enlightenment, what would that be to you?

 

IMHO Mastering emotions is in both Buddhism and Taoism. One of the canons is not to be easily getting upset from a Buddhist point of view. In Taoism, it is to be in a state of stillness(靜) which is emotionless(Wu Wei).

 

This is my view as well; that's why I thought it belonged here. Everything I've been talking about, minus the specific post on empiness/luminosity, is how I've come to view taoist philosophy based on my experiences.

 

Edit: Would any of you be willing to experiment with radical acceptance for a month or two? Maybe see if you can't reach this emotionless state I'm referring to? It might be helpful to have another person who has seen it first hand. Or maybe some of you already do practice like this? IDK, just an idea.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Kajenx

[C T]

Aren't emotions synonymous with aliveness?

 

Motivation is based on emotion. A person gets the will to diligently practice Chi gung. What is the source of that motivation?

 

In Vajrayana, emotions are fuel for transformation. The greater the emotions, the greater the potential for entering and connecting with our true essence (aka Buddha nature).

 

There are other pertinent questions we can ask and explore, but im pushed for time right now, so will come back to this interesting discussion later on.

[Kajenx]

Your question is actually rather important, I think, CT. I'm in the mind-frame as I answer your question, here, and when I look around me I'm suddenly struck by how much more alive I feel than normal. Emotions take attention away from the world and gnaw on that attention so it can't see anything else. This is why it feels a bit like a veil has dropped when the emotions disappear - there is just this lovely set of vivid sensory phenomena to experience. It doesn't seem to matter much what those senses are displaying, as it's all very nice. So, yes, there isn't much motivation to do anything. I'm answering your question, though, so I must have some reason to do so. Maybe it's emotional, but the emotions aren't read as "feelings" but rather "suggestions". There are just no contractions or physical manifestations. My body is completely at rest. Somehow everything feels very clean and new and still. I think that's because the mind sees itself as still, so it projects that stillness onto everything else. It does this with the other feelings as well - I think that's just how the mind works. You might say nothing is ugly or boring, the mind just is that way sometimes.

 

Strong emotions definately are fuel for transformation - I saw that the first time I ran into this mind state. I was incredibly anxious, and that anxiety suddenly flipped over into incredible bliss when I finally accepted the contracted heart center completely. The two emotions were identcal physicaly, the mind just decided to see one as good and the other as bad. That bliss faded quickly, as I was still "accepting" at the time, and I spent the rest of the night completely emotionless or equanimious. Once the transformation happens, it doesn't need any more fuel, I think.

 

This is what I think the "dualistic illusion" really is. ANYTHING can be seen as positive or negative, and once the mind begins to see this switch instantly happen on a regular basis, it has a hard time believing it anymore and simply stays neutral. That's my theory anyway. Once this mind locks in, it sticks around pretty easily these days. The main problem is remembering not to try to change the feelings, but instead to just let go of the judgements about the feelings. They seem to go positive before they go neutral - so that's probably the continuum. Bad -> Good -> Freedom.

 

I think a lot of the Taoist practices bring this into the physical realm as well - also yoga maybe. What might feel painful originally becomes pleasurable with acceptance. I've been able to play with this a bit with headaches and seen great results.

 

Edit: Actually, consider something like writer's block. In that case the emotions are in direct conflict with the will. The artist wants to write, but dislikes what s/he is writing, losing motivation. If the writer wasn't influenced by emotional thinking, s/he could just write freely without any problems. Maybe what I'm referring to as emotions could be thought of as inhibitions. The capacity to make judgements remains, those judgements just don't have any feelings or urgency attached to them.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Kajenx

[gatito]

@ Kajenx

 

Anatta (anatman) should be translated as impersonal in this context (this is not usually understood by Buddhists) - that realisation (that none of this is personal) seems not to have occurred yet.

 

Wu wei is definitely not emotionless.

[Stosh]

Aren't emotions synonymous with aliveness?

 

Motivation is based on emotion. A person gets the will to diligently practice Chi gung. What is the source of that motivation?

 

In Vajrayana, emotions are fuel for transformation. The greater the emotions, the greater the potential for entering and connecting with our true essence (aka Buddha nature).

 

There are other pertinent questions we can ask and explore, but im pushed for time right now, so will come back to this interesting discussion later on.

This kind of sounds like its 'assumed' ' truth'

IS there some reason why emotions should or must be synonymous with being alive?

IS motivation based on emotion?

 

For example, Kajenx says he's motivated by an experience he isnt calling an emotion. (unless Im mistaken)

Same goes for Wu wei , non-attatchment etc

So that would seem to defy the idea that-- motivation and aliveness --are locked to emotions,,

It also seems to grind against the idea of transcending a life which has 'motivated by suffering' when the gratifications one would be trancending , are emotional .. thingies.

 

It sounds like condoning cake and eating it too.

 

Kajenx as well, seems to have backed himself into a "corner' conceptually , ,,If he experiences this wonderful state of wanting for nothing he feels that he wouldnt be motivated to want anything ,, that is motivated to do anything , and what he would end up doing , is maladative to continuing life processes.

 

Mh , leaves a door open , he says that this state is imperfect , and so , he can go around enjoying things, maintain his physical wellbeing etc,, the lovely experience is an amelioration rather than a perfected state of being.

 

( sorry If Im misconstruing anyone)

But as I posed elsewhere, that which folks are calling emotions, or not-emotions ,, may not be a clear cut dichotomy where we all are using the same terminology.

 

Gatitos claim that wu wei isnt emotionless, could be true or false depending on what one is calling emotion,, are we to include all subjective non-conceptual states as being emotions? or are we excluding feelings.. like serenity , or uneasyness. Emotions are sometimes considered a category of behavior+bodily-sensation-cascades,,, these associations arent very specific to the external, and then they might call serenity a 'feeling' instead.

None of this conversation can be clear if we dont use the terminologies as similarly as we can.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Wu Wei (無為) by itself is not emotionless. It is the result of its application was. For example, a cultivated person or Taoist may tolerate a great deal of insults by doing nothing to cause any mental distress. The words can be ignored as soon trouble was sensed by the receiving party with no counteraction. Even though there may be a little emotion initially, however, by taken no action to cause harm at the end seems emotionless.

I guess that is what "mastering the emotions" is all about in the OP.....!!!

Edited June 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[C T]

@ Stosh... In your opinion, what is motivation based off? My take is that motivation stems from a desire for something. A desire for nothing, is that a sort of motive too? Aren't motives generally linked to emotions? Help me to figure out, please!

 

I still maintain there is nothing wrong/despicable/resentful/guilty with having anything, emotions included. There is a misperception among a number of 'spiritual' seekers who seem to equate the spiritual life with non-possession and barrenness. Funny thing is many fake gurus in India know this skewed Western mindset, and set out to milk seekers left, right and centre hahaha!!! Material possessions are burdens,they tell their devotees, give them up if you want everlasting peace & happiness, donate everything to your ashram!!! I know a few businesspeople who give a large chunk of their income to such gurujis.

 

If one is not able to handle emotions, dont even think about progressing too far on the spiritual path. Emotions are safety cogs, nature's gift to human beings. Please welcome it, not dismember it.

 

Edited June 18, 2014 by C T

[Kajenx]

Stosh makes a good point. I'll try to describe the state in a purely sensory and descriptive way, and you guys can decide if it's emotionless or not. One thing, though, C T, you seem determined to ignore everything I keep repeating haha. You cannot hope to reach this state through suppressing, ignoring, avoiding, not-handling, running away from, hiding from, forcibly battling, or barganing with emotional states. Actually, that's what we do all day long. I think that's why we experience negative emotions in the first place. The emotionlessness I'm talking about is the result of accepting what is percieved as negative so that it becomes positive and then fades away completely.

 

What I am saying is emotionless is the complete absence of internal contraction. Emotions seem to register (for me) in various knots or lumps along the midline of the body. Fear, excitement, and bliss/love are a contractions in the chest area, anger is in the head and neck, a particular kind of innocence or nostalgia manifests somewhere under the stomach. These things can get messy, but there's always a physical manifestation I can point to as, "this is where I'm feeling."

 

What happens is, by coming back to "now" and enjoying the sensory feelings of the moment, it becomes easy to accept these feeling "knots". If they're negative, they will transform into their positive counterparts. This shift can be very odd, because the emotions themselves are so different, but they actually feel the same physically. Once all these knots are read as positive - something which happens natturally on it's own when they aren't resisted - the mind transitions outward from these knots and comes to a complete rest. There is simply no internal focus at all; no movement to the attention. If I try to "look" there, the feeling is a sense of emptiness, like I am hollow. I can't call this a good or bad feeling because it's just a different thing completely. It's like trying to compare apples with the space left when the apples go away. You can call it bliss, or serenity or whatever, but to me it simply feels like there is nothing there. There is nothing to give a name to. This "feeling" is, oddly, the best feeling I've ever encountered. It is total freedom. After I encountered it the first time, I suddenly realized how even what I called normal or happy was a kind of tension. These internal tensions are something like an obsession, and I've noticed they color my opinion of everything my senses come in contact with. If the contractions are read as negative, I'm bored or angry and the things around me are judged as inferior, boring, gross, etc. If the contrations are read as positive, the things around me are seen as good or helpful. You might think this is a good thing, but it's just as much a kind of blindness. I see "good thing" not "thing itself". For some reason "thing itself" is better. Maybe because it's restful. Does it feel better to squeeze something tight or lay your hand on it sofly, you know? The mind state just has this sweetness to it, almost like a smell or a taste. It might be related to sinus contraction going away and bowels running smoothly? I dunno, I'm doing my best here, haha. It's complete relaxation, made all the better because it isn't attached to any "thing".

 

Contraction (emotion), I would argue, is a sense just like taste or touch. It's a representation OF the mind FOR the mind. If those contrations go away, the mind percieves itself as having no state at all, and simply offers sensory information without any judgements. The mind state has a hint of childhood to it, and I think that's why. It's like everything is fresh and new.

 

As for motivation, I can understand why it would seem like a person wouldn't want to do anything without feeling desires, but the body has this energy of its own I think. Maybe this is wired into the mind, where when things seem new and fresh, the mind wants to explore and experiment with the world so it can decide how to judge things. It isn't a lathargic state at all - it's simply still and outward facing. It doesn't make me avoid food or work. Hunger isn't an emotion, and I still have a logical mind telling me money will create more food and a house. These things don't have urgency, though, they're just understood to be true.

 

Creativity might be worth mentioning as well. I'm an artist, so it would suck if no emotions/contractions meant no artistic ability - but the opposite seems to be true. Spontenaity fuels the creative process, and emotional thinking just causes me to get attached to bits of the song/painting/writing even though I know I should change it. When there's no attachment to the process, you can obliterate something that just isn't working with no real thought to the time spent on it. There's no frustration, so things go much faster and just work better the first time around anyway.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Kajenx

[C T]

Hi Kajenx,

 

Im sorry you feel as if i've been ignoring your thoughts and expressions. I dont think in my heart that i have been insincere.

 

Im enjoying reading your reflections very much -- imo they are well thought-out, and considerable mindful attention have been transferred from thoughts to words to action. Its a good indicator of someone who takes time to contemplate their situation, so thank you sincerely for this. Its quite inspiring to know that you are in a good space resulting in increased energy and creativity in your work and life.

 

Just one tiny point which needs clarification: Its not clear to me why you equate contraction with emotions. Could you explain further? In my experience, transformed emotions brings about correct view of reality, and also arouses compassionate urges to be kind, thoughtful, and all the other transcendent states both for self and others, which results in a very expansive state of being. This is the area where there appears to be some niggling doubts.

 

Blessings!

[Stosh]

@ Stosh... In your opinion, what is motivation based off? My take is that motivation stems from a desire for something. A desire for nothing, is that a sort of motive too? Aren't motives generally linked to emotions? Help me to figure out, please!

 

I still maintain there is nothing wrong/despicable/resentful/guilty with having anything, emotions included. There is a misperception among a number of 'spiritual' seekers who seem to equate the spiritual life with non-possession and barrenness. Funny thing is many fake gurus in India know this skewed Western mindset, and set out to milk seekers left, right and centre hahaha!!! Material possessions are burdens,they tell their devotees, give them up if you want everlasting peace & happiness, donate everything to your ashram!!! I know a few businesspeople who give a large chunk of their income to such gurujis.

 

If one is not able to handle emotions, dont even think about progressing too far on the spiritual path. Emotions are safety cogs, nature's gift to human beings. Please welcome it, not dismember it.

 

Well, Sir , that takes a lot of answering, but Id go with Buddhas conclusion ..that motivation , is a reaction to dissatisfactions.

So its just inherent to our lives that we cant be perfectly happy for long. The earth moves beneath our feet,regardless of how still as we try to stand ,and in trying to maintain a happy balance with it , we move with it.

Its our physical aspect which demands this dynamic. but simply said, I also agree that one could say it is desire which moves our feet ,and yes, it can be a desire for things to not-change, as much as for things to be changed to what we want them to be. So what I said , shouldnt challenge you or undermine your stance in that respect.. where we might differ is probably just in wording , and in the concept of 'perfect state preservable'.

 

But Im wondering what you mean by safety cogs re: emotions ,, Ive never considered them such , but do you infer that they happen so we remain in sync with our surroundings? If So I'd agree there as well.

 

Perhaps the Buddhist sits and the Taoist walks.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Stosh

[3bob]

When prana leaves things go stiff and die.

 

but more prana per dharma means more "expansiveness" (including that of purified emotions and thoughts) as I believe CT implies, such power is not a mental exercise of doing double takes with word meanings or a nil state. A true master is radiant and luminous with prana which is steady and uplifting, thus not entangled with mixed, conflicting and or what might be called "contracting" emotions although that does not mean emotionlessness to me, it means purified emotions per fulfilled dharma along with an energetic radiating of spiritual truth that is not impinged upon by unsettled emotions from within or by intrusive emotions from without.

[Ya Mu]

@ Stosh... In your opinion, what is motivation based off? My take is that motivation stems from a desire for something. A desire for nothing, is that a sort of motive too? Aren't motives generally linked to emotions? Help me to figure out, please!

 

I still maintain there is nothing wrong/despicable/resentful/guilty with having anything, emotions included. There is a misperception among a number of 'spiritual' seekers who seem to equate the spiritual life with non-possession and barrenness. Funny thing is many fake gurus in India know this skewed Western mindset, and set out to milk seekers left, right and centre hahaha!!! Material possessions are burdens,they tell their devotees, give them up if you want everlasting peace & happiness, donate everything to your ashram!!! I know a few businesspeople who give a large chunk of their income to such gurujis.

 

If one is not able to handle emotions, dont even think about progressing too far on the spiritual path. Emotions are safety cogs, nature's gift to human beings. Please welcome it, not dismember it.

 

Agreed. We ARE emotional beings - a part of our true nature. Nothing is so greatly in harmony with Tao as a good belly laugh. "Spiritual" folks who want to suppress emotions are living a part-life instead of full life as expressed by their true nature.

[C T]

When prana leaves things go stiff and die. but more prana per dharma means more "expansiveness" (including that of purified emotions and thoughts) as I believe CT implies, such power is not a mental exercise of doing double takes with word meanings or a nil state. A true master is radiant and luminous with prana which is steady and uplifting, thus not entangled with mixed, conflicting and or what might be called "contracting" emotions although that does not mean emotionlessness to me, it means purified emotions per fulfilled dharma along with an energetic radiating of spiritual truth that is not impinged upon by unsettled emotions from within or by intrusive emotions from without.

Yes, purified emotions... or transcendent emotions, 3Bob! You said it well.

 

In my mind, to be without emotion is as if something has withered or died, like you mentioned above. I sense that a growing spiritual practice leads in the other direction, no?

Edited June 19, 2014 by C T

[Jetsun]

I always liked the classic Hindu analogy of a human being like a chariot, how the body is the cart while the emotions are the horse. Without the horse you won't get very far.

 

When Gurdjieff talks using this analogy he says the driver is always sleeping and doesn't know where he is going while the reigns and chains between the driver, horse and cart are weak and degraded. So the first thing to do is improve the reigns with the horse, not degrade them further or even pretend they don't exist or pretend you don't need the horse at all.

[C T]

Agreed. We ARE emotional beings - a part of our true nature. Nothing is so greatly in harmony with Tao as a good belly laugh. "Spiritual" folks who want to suppress emotions are living a part-life instead of full life as expressed by their true nature.

I think where difficulty and struggle begins is when, as emotional beings, we get stumped by conditioning -- as men, we learn from a tender age that crying is weak, and as women, emotional irresponsiveness leads to failure. It takes guts for real men to shed tears out of tenderness/empathy, and women with all their responsibilities and juggling home life and professional demands are entitled to be stronger emotionally. What would become problematic is allowing disharmony... not knowing when its time to do the right thing.

 

On a positive note, there seems to be a raised awareness around this matter of opening up more to release stress-related contractiveness, and men and women are slowly rekindling their inner, more spontaneous nature. Male CEOs are now learning to smell flowers and finding joy in intimacy, whereas their female counterparts are starting to become comfortable with guzzling pints of lager and smoking cigars!! (just kiddin, the last bit)

[BaguaKicksAss]

I think being at peace with our emotions is the trick. Easier said than done for many.

[Jeff]

When prana leaves things go stiff and die.

 

but more prana per dharma means more "expansiveness" (including that of purified emotions and thoughts) as I believe CT implies, such power is not a mental exercise of doing double takes with word meanings or a nil state. A true master is radiant and luminous with prana which is steady and uplifting, thus not entangled with mixed, conflicting and or what might be called "contracting" emotions although that does not mean emotionlessness to me, it means purified emotions per fulfilled dharma along with an energetic radiating of spiritual truth that is not impinged upon by unsettled emotions from within or by intrusive emotions from without.

 

Beautifully said.