Chapter 11: The Big Concealment/Hong Meng character

[Stosh]

Thank you for the attention you've already put into this ,

if and when you have some conversational time we could pick back up on this point if you are willing ,, since Im really not interested in Mr Wangs opinion in this case, just your own.

The reason being that one cohesive mindset should be illuminating more than hopping around to Rene's or Mr Wangs and then over here and there, so at least the terminology and perceptions should remain consistent, and I dont know Mr Wang in any way that implies I should consider him credible ( or not credible) , and Rene has dropped off the radar ( as well as expressed opinions inexplicable to herself , though I like her style and sincerity)

Thanks

[Marblehead]

Well, I did have to set my level of understanding. Afterall, my understandings and opinions are based on many different inputs and considerations. Plus I didn't want you or anyone else to think that those were my own original thoughts.

 

But yeah, any further discussion, from my side, can be done based on my own understandings and opinions.

 

To your statement: but now it looks like a description dividing his being into divisons of physical and spiritual,

 

No, only one undivided being. The total person. If you will, the good, the bad, and the ugly (and beautiful too).

 

It is just that the Sage is where (s)he needs be at any given point in time. When there is no external stimulation they are totally internal, total wu, spiritual. However, with external stimulation they may need to become total Yo, total concentration on the task at hand.

[Stosh]

Well Mh I dont suppose anyone can really say they arent building with the ideas that have been considered before, the construct may not end up the same though. Anyway ..

Ok If the wu and yo are ends of a gradient or spectrum , how is a Sage in yo mode different from anybody else , and why could then a rhino find no place for its horn?

[Marblehead]

Ok If the wu and yo are ends of a gradient or spectrum , how is a Sage in yo mode different from anybody else , and why could then a rhino find no place for its horn?

Hehehe. That's a trick question but I'll do my best.

 

First, in the state of Yo the Sage is not different from any other of the billions of people on the planet. We are dealing with our external conditions.

 

Second part: Awareness. The Sage is aware of the presence of the rhino before the rhino is aware of the Sage. The Sage remains invisible to the rhino and therefore the rhino has no place to thrust its horn. Same with the tiger, same with the enemy soldier. The Green Berets know how to be invisible.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Marblehead

[GrandmasterP]

Bill Porter in his Chinese Hermits book meets lots of 'sagacious' hermits going about everyday activities.

Walking down the mountain to fetch supplies.

Cultivating their gardens.

Picking tea.

When he stops to shoot the breeze ( he is fluent in Chinese) those hermits are as likely to chat about the state of the weather and their cabbage crop as they are about profound subjects.

For sure they all have their own cultivations and Bill asks them about what they do, why and how but outside of formal cultivation time the hermits are just going about everyday activities, albeit; usually on their own.

All the hermits Bill came across were sociable and hospitable in company.

Edited July 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Hehehe. That's a trick question but I'll do my best.

 

First, in the state of Yo the Sage is not different from any other of the billions of people on the planet. We are dealing with our external conditions.

 

Second part: Awareness. The Sage is aware of the presence of the rhino before the rhino is aware of the Sage. The Sage remains invisible to the rhino and therefore the rhino has no place to thrust its horn. Same with the tiger, same with the enemy soldier. The Green Berets know how to be invisible.

How can I trick you with a question?

 

Anyway , if he isnt any different in yo mode from anyone else, then to what ,can he owe special awareness of the rhino?

 

If he is somewhat in yo, even when in wu mode , then even in wu mode he is still vulnerable , and can make the same errors ,,is-can he not?

[Stosh]

Bill Porter in his Chinese Hermits book meets lots of 'sagacious' hermits going about everyday activities.

Walking down the mountain to fetch supplies.

Cultivating their gardens.

Picking tea.

When he stops to shoot the breeze ( he is fluent in Chinese) those hermits are as likely to chat about the state of the weather and their cabbage crop as they are about profound subjects.

For sure they all have their own cultivations and Bill asks them about what they do, why and how but outside of formal cultivation time the hermits are just going about everyday activities, albeit; usually on their own.

All the hermits Bill came across were sociable and hospitable in company.

No irony there, in those sociable hermits.

[GrandmasterP]

" No (wo)man is an island."

 

[Marblehead]

How can I trick you with a question?

Because you know I will try my best to answer the question to the best of my ability. I could easily argue with myself to the answers I offered above.

 

Anyway , if he isnt any different in yo mode from anyone else, then to what ,can he owe special awareness of the rhino?

Because there are lots of people who simply are not aware. That is why rhinos kill people. That is why tigers kill people. That is why people get run through with the blade.

 

The Sage's Yo awareness is a result of his/her condition in the Wu state. Rememeber, the Wu state is not being spaced out. It is a state of repose but yet fully aware of what is going on around them. If no action is needed no action is taken.

If he is somewhat in yo, even when in wu mode , then even in wu mode he is still vulnerable , and can make the same errors ,,is-can he not?

Awareness is key here. In the state of Wu there is awareness without the need to concentrate on any single aspect of the totality. We move into the Yo state when we must concentrate on a single aspect of our external environment. I know that when it go to this state I lose awareness of the totality and this can be dangerous. I become too tunnel-visioned. I have always been this way and will likely never change.

[Marblehead]

" No (wo)man is an island."

True, but some live on them.

[Stosh]

Because you know I will try my best to answer the question to the best of my ability. I could easily argue with myself to the answers I offered above.

 

Because there are lots of people who simply are not aware. That is why rhinos kill people. That is why tigers kill people. That is why people get run through with the blade.

 

The Sage's Yo awareness is a result of his/her condition in the Wu state. Rememeber, the Wu state is not being spaced out. It is a state of repose but yet fully aware of what is going on around them. If no action is needed no action is taken.

Awareness is key here. In the state of Wu there is awareness without the need to concentrate on any single aspect of the totality. We move into the Yo state when we must concentrate on a single aspect of our external environment. I know that when it go to this state I lose awareness of the totality and this can be dangerous. I become too tunnel-visioned. I have always been this way and will likely never change.

Well those are very good answers none-the less, for being answers to things you would question yourself.

 

So how would a normal go about gaining the advantages of a sage?

or continuing on that earlier track, Is not the butcher in full attention to his one task in wu wei and therefore in full Yo mode?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Stosh

[Stosh]

" No (wo)man is an island."

So the wu mode Mh mentions is not an island of sorts?

[Marblehead]

So how would a normal go about gaining the advantages of a sage?

or continuing on that earlier track, Is not the butcher in full attention to his one task in wu wei and therefore in full Yo mode?

You sure do come up with some really probing questions. Hehehe.

 

What is normal? Everyone is special and unique. But yeah, the average special and unique Joe. Awareness. One is not aware when driving a car and texting or talking on a cell phone. (For example.)

 

When not concentrating on a situation that needs be changed, one should practice being fully aware of their surroundings. To concentrate on nothing but aware of everything. (No, I'm not there yet but I know it's important.)

 

The butcher: Another tricky one. While practicing his skill, yes, the butcher would be in full Yo mode. But once the skill is perfected he would likely function from the Wu mode. That is, concentration is not necessary because he is going to do the best thing regardless. He would never hit a bone while cutting. His mind is pretty much empty, allowing the universe to enter.

[Stosh]

Thanks , but I think these ideas might pop up to anyone trying to get a picture which jives if they think there is sincerity to the scenario.

 

If the butcher is aware of what there is in the universe entering , I figure that is either , everything in the universe..

or just what is available around him

,, if he is aware of everything , then he should be able to read the minds of those around him literally , see around corners,know the presence of microbes etc ,

or he should not know where the bones are hidden in the flesh ,,, (if he is only aware of what he, or we, could see).

So why,,, 2500 yrs ago wouldnt he wash his hands first or hit bones?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm sure he washed his hands after going pee pee.

 

No, I didn't mean "everything in the universe" but rather "everything in his immediate environment".

 

Yes, he would know where the bones are and would intuitively not cut into them.

 

BTW For you to get that pictue of that dragonfly you had to be totally in Yo. But that doesn't mean that you were detatched from Wu.

[gatito]

Interestingly, I've noticed that MH understands the heart of Aikido: -

 

 

Shodo means "first move" and seisu means "to control". Therefore, shodo-o-seisu literally means "to control the first move". However, shodo-o-seisu is easily misunderstood; it has a deeper meaning than simply overpowering one's opponent with speed or technique.

 

The true meaning of shodo-o-seisu is to keep calm, to be ready with the right attitude in our daily lives so that we have complete control over ourselves before a conflict arises. Our ki should be flowing calmly so that whatever comes in contact with it will blend and melt into the flow. We must put ourselves into a state of tranquility and readiness. The appearance may look static but the flow of ki is dynamic. Like an engine idling calmly at an intersection that is ready to accelerate with a light touch on the gas pedal, we must be ready to spring into action with efficiency at any time. Preparing yourself [and remaining] unnoticed always gives you the advantage.

 

Example: Let your partner hold onto your wrist with all his/her strength and then try to turn your body to lead him/her around you. You will find that you must be much stronger than your partner to move him/her. Now, visualize your ki flowing naturally out your arm as you let your partner hold with equal strength and think that you touched him/her first. You will naturally control the situation from the beginning, and should be able to move your partner with ease. This is a good example of shodo-o-seisu.

 

Having a better understanding of others is also shodo-o-seisu. We won't lose friends in our daily life if we can control a situation before it deteriorates. By understanding each other well, we will be able to prevent misunderstanding and automatically avoid confrontations.

 

Rod Kobayashi, Shodo-o-sesu, Seidokan Headquarters, 1986

[Marblehead]

Interestingly, I've noticed that MH understands the heart of Aikido: -

That made me think.

 

Actually, almost everything I have said in this thread is based in The Chuang Tzu and The Art of War.

[gatito]

That made me think.

 

Actually, almost everything I have said in this thread is based in The Chuang Tzu and The Art of War.

 

Of course

[Stosh]

Well, I'm sure he washed his hands after going pee pee.

 

No, I didn't mean "everything in the universe" but rather "everything in his immediate environment".

 

Yes, he would know where the bones are and would intuitively not cut into them.

 

BTW For you to get that pictue of that dragonfly you had to be totally in Yo. But that doesn't mean that you were detatched from Wu.

I was thinking about this over the weekend , and Id say yeah, it fits your yo mode , I use info from the past, apply it to the present , to induce a directed future , . I just dont see where wu comes into the picture.

The butcher , is said to be in wu wei , right ? and I am acting much as the butcher does, and what I am doing is basically yo,, well you see the contradiction there,,, can you clear that up?

 

and yes, he fairly turned the tables on me in that post

 

When not concentrating on a situation that needs be changed, one should practice being fully aware of their surroundings. To concentrate on nothing but aware of everything. (No, I'm not there yet but I know it's important.) ... that describes the hunt well however.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I was thinking about this over the weekend , and Id say yeah, it fits your yo mode , I use info from the past, apply it to the present , to induce a directed future , . I just dont see where wu comes into the picture.

The butcher , is said to be in wu wei , right ? and I am acting much as the butcher does, and what I am doing is basically yo,, well you see the contradiction there,,, can you clear that up?

 

and yes, he fairly turned the tables on me in that post

 

When not concentrating on a situation that needs be changed, one should practice being fully aware of their surroundings. To concentrate on nothing but aware of everything. (No, I'm not there yet but I know it's important.) ... that describes the hunt well however.

Nice response. Yes, I can tell you thought about this over the weekend.

 

You have me at a point where I must be watchful so that I don't contradict myself.

 

Yes, the butcher is "doing" in the state of wu wei. That is, his mind (heart, whatever) is in wu, empty but aware, "doing" what is natural, but his "doing" is in the state of yo. His initial intent was to cut up the ox. (Intent is always in the state of yo.)

 

Yes, from what I know of you from previous conversations, you too are "doing" from both the state of wu and yo. Say, for example, your intent Saturday was to go out and get some pictures of dragonflies (yo). It is natural that you move from where you are to where the dragonflies are. (wu and yo) You arrive at the area and you follow your intuition (wu) as to where to set up and wait for the dragonflies (wu). A dragonfly arrives and perches on a reed. You immediately go into yo mode (intention), focus your camera on the dragonfly and push the button.

 

I have said before that I think it is an extremely rare person who can remain totally in wu (without intention) for an extended period of time. I will add here that I think it is an extremely rare person who can remain totally in yo (with intention) for an extended period of time. (Whenever we ask ourself the question "Why?" we are sliding toward the state of wu.)

 

Hehehe. No, I'm not there yet either but I have confidence that this would be a wonderful state to be in.

 

Right now I am "wu-ing", naturally responding to stimulus. But I know that pretty soon I will be going out to the ponds area as there are some things that I "intend" to do today. (Don't know how "wu-y" I will be able to be while doing those things though.)

[Stosh]

I see, ,again, nice answer,,, Would you feel it is essentially accurate to compare wu / yo to yin/yang ?

 

Why would it behoove someone to consider wu and yo at all if they are going to be doing both (emphasizing either) inevitably anyhow?

Edited July 14, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I see, ,again, nice answer,,, Would you feel it is essentially accurate to compare wu / yo to yin/yang ?

Thanks.

 

It could likely be done and supported logically but I, personally, wouldn't do it.

[Stosh]

Thanks.

 

It could likely be done and supported logically but I, personally, wouldn't do it.

Why not? it would connect the paradigms , give reason for considering mental things in terms of yin and yang ..

[Marblehead]

Here is a short story from Chuang Tzu (Burton Watson translation) that goes well with this train of thoughts we are having:

 

Chuang Chou was wandering in the park at Tiao-ling when he saw a peculiar kind of magpie that came flying along from the south. It had a wingspread of seven feet and its eyes were a good inch in diameter. It brushed against Chuang Chou's forehead and then settled down in a grove of chestnut trees. "What kind of bird is that!" exclaimed Chuang Chou. "Its wings are enormous but they get it nowhere; its eyes are huge but it can't even see where it's going!" Then he hitched up his robe, strode forward, cocked his crossbow and prepared to take aim. As he did so, he spied a cicada that had found a lovely spot of shade and had forgotten all about [the possibility of danger to] its body. Behind it, a praying mantis, stretching forth its claws, prepared to snatch the cicada, and it too had forgotten about its own form as it eyed its prize. The peculiar magpie was close behind, ready to make off with the praying mantis, forgetting its own true self as it fixed its eyes on the prospect of gain. Chuang Chou, shuddering at the sight, said, "Ah! - things do nothing but make trouble for each other - one creature calling down disaster on another!" He threw down his crossbow, turned about, and hurried from the park, but the park keeper [taking him for a poacher] raced after him with shouts of accusation.

[Marblehead]

Why not? it would connect the paradigms , give reason for considering mental things in terms of yin and yang ..

Because the concept of Yin/Yang is already too confusing and understood in many different ways.

 

But yes, from my perspective Yang would be associated with the "yo" state and Yin with the "wu" state.