Chapter 11: The Big Concealment/Hong Meng character

[Stosh]

Makes sense,, ok so whats that Tzujan thing youve mentioned ..

I was gonna segue smoother off yin yang myself , I dont see much to get out of the topic other than it demonstrates a perspective based , thingie,,

The interweb describes the tzujan as something to do with harmonizing with the tao , as Ive read it seems you may consider it more about normal human nature

eventually Id like to get to these things in terms of , what theyre supposed to mean in daily living ,, thats to say how these issues are to be regarded ,, not so much - to know what these terms mean as part of a jargon ,, but more of why they should be considered,

If I am told My bug photography is considered more yo or wu , well, it doesnt make me any more skilled.

And if a sage is used as an object lesson, well whats his tzujan got to do with mine? if its both wu and yo also.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Hi Stosh,

 

True, the words are not important once we have grasped the concept. The concepts, however, will help us in understanding ourself and others and especially why we and they do the things we do. I find this very useful in not putting unrealistic expectations on myself and others.

 

To Tzujan: TTC, Chapter 25, last four lines (paraphrased)

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

And Tao follows itself.

 

The last word should be "tzujan" and not "itself".

 

Tzujan is a things' naturalness. This includes the things' spontaneity, or, if you will, the things' instinctual and intuitional actions and reactions.

 

Tzujan would be spontaneity without thought. (I'm tired, I sit down. No thought needed.)

 

A rock too has its own tzujan. Can we call it 'its thusness'? Perhaps.

 

I don't believe it has to do with harmonizing with Tao unless we say something like, "I am being according to my tzujan just as Tao is being according to its tzujan." And even this is getting too close to personifying Tao for me to even hold to something like that.

 

Yes, "normal human nature" would be closer. But even here the word "normal" would cause all kinds of entanglements.

 

And true, knowing the perfect definition of Yin and Yang isn't going to earn you any money, buy you a new camera, or put gas in your car. However, knowing that these two words refer to the energy we all have as well as the energy of the universe. and that these energies influence our moods.

 

More than anything, I think, is that knowing how the tick tocks allows us to make better judgements in our life.

[Stosh]

'Instinctual and intuitional' ,, is a habit considered those ? to take a photo I press a button , Ive learned that , considered it ,made decisions about use of it ,all in the past ,, In the present it would seem instinctual, would it not? but there is nothing inherently instinctive for humans to press camera buttons , right? Similarly , without thinking, I might strike a person that made me angry .. this could be to teach them a well earned lesson , or it could be to dissipate tension with the action,,, so would these behaviors be considered my tzujan of the moment? or the fabrications of the past being applied anew.

 

Additionally , its part of the human makeup -thusness, to learn ,,,and would this not then mean that anything one did , was , thus , what he is? and one step farther, could he be not-thus? for if there is no inverse to thusness then thusness doesnt exist - using the precept of yin-yang. Like anything else that happens , it is only that which happens which happens and that which didnt happen , is just an imaginary event ,, which didnt happen.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

'Instinctual and intuitional' ,, is a habit considered those ? to take a photo I press a button , Ive learned that , considered it ,made decisions about use of it ,all in the past ,, In the present it would seem instinctual, would it not? but there is nothing inherently instinctive for humans to press camera buttons , right? Similarly , without thinking, I might strike a person that made me angry .. this could be to teach them a well earned lesson , or it could be to dissipate tension with the action,,, so would these behaviors be considered my tzujan of the moment? or the fabrications of the past being applied anew.

Pushing the camera button is learned behavior. Striking the person would be your tzujan. I know, some would argue with me about this. Consider the child before being taught that they should not hit others. You make thm mad and they will hit you.

 

Instincts, IMO, are those things we do in order to satisfy our basic needs of food, clothing, shelter, and security.

 

Intuition is something else. It is our subconscious telling us whatever even though we likely would not consciously remember the why of this. They are mostly based on past events that have been forgotten.

 

Additionally , its part of the human makeup -thusness, to learn ,,,and would this not then mean that anything one did , was , thus , what he is? and one step farther, could he be not-thus? for if there is no inverse to thusness then thusness doesnt exist - using the precept of yin-yang. Like anything else that happens , it is only that which happens which happens and that which didnt happen , is just an imaginary event ,, which didnt happen.

True. We are not born with enough instincts to make it in life. Therefore we must learn certain things. Yes, what we do is a reflection of who we are, whether learned from others or self-inspired. So, yeah, I suppose that one could say that this is part of our thusness. All manifest things have their own thusness. The only way I could see "not-thus" would be to not exist. So there is your opposition to thusness - non-existence. (But not non-thusness.)

 

You were born. Had you not been born you (the non-existant you) would not have learned to push the camera button and there would be no picture of that particular dragonfly in that particular position and that particular point in time. (I might have lost this one. Hehehe. I already see problems with what I said.)

[Stosh]

Pushing the camera button is learned behavior. Striking the person would be your tzujan. I know, some would argue with me about this. Consider the child before being taught that they should not hit others. You make thm mad and they will hit you.

 

Instincts, IMO, are those things we do in order to satisfy our basic needs of food, clothing, shelter, and security.

 

Intuition is something else. It is our subconscious telling us whatever even though we likely would not consciously remember the why of this. They are mostly based on past events that have been forgotten.

 

True. We are not born with enough instincts to make it in life. Therefore we must learn certain things. Yes, what we do is a reflection of who we are, whether learned from others or self-inspired. So, yeah, I suppose that one could say that this is part of our thusness. All manifest things have their own thusness. The only way I could see "not-thus" would be to not exist. So there is your opposition to thusness - non-existence. (But not non-thusness.)

 

You were born. Had you not been born you (the non-existant you) would not have learned to push the camera button and there would be no picture of that particular dragonfly in that particular position and that particular point in time. (I might have lost this one. Hehehe. I already see problems with what I said.)

Go ahead and redraw the picture if you like, Ill not try to hold you to a presentation which a moments consideration would alter to something you'd be more comfortable to stand behind. It makes it hard for me to phrase a follow up, if I think you are of a mind different from what Im addressing.

[Marblehead]

Well, my responses come the way they come. I'm just having a conversation with you. I have nothing to prove. (Nothing to gain, nothing to lose.) But I do enjoy the conversations. Many of your questions cause me to question my understandings but generally what I type is what comes to my mind when thinking on the subject and it is always the truth at that time. Things change though. And understandings change too.

[Stosh]

So long as your answers fit your mind thats good , Im just saying Im not trying for the gotcha scenario, but rather pasting together a reasonably cohesive picture that depicts how the philosophy plays down to practical position on things.

So anyway, does the tzujan ( if it equates to character ) serve as a basis to determine what virtue would be on an individual basis or would it devolve down to general principles which apply generally. ?

[Marblehead]

So anyway, does the tzujan ( if it equates to character ) serve as a basis to determine what virtue would be on an individual basis or would it devolve down to general principles which apply generally. ?

I have had that discussion elsewhere and I still don't have a firm opinion.

 

The problems enter when a question like "Was Hitler following his tzujan?" is asked.

 

Our behavior (and therefore our character) can be intuitional (self onspired) or learned.

 

I think it can be stated without doubt that both Hitler and Mother Teresa followed their own nature. But their behavior was at opposite ends of a continuum.

 

Thing about tzujan is that if we feel we did the right thing regarding whatever we do or don't do then we are following our own tzujan. If we are in accord with our tzujan there will be no inner or mental conflict resulting from what we did or did not do. We would have followed our true nature.

 

If we ever say "I shouldn't have done that." I would think that we likely have an inner conflict between our learned behavior and our natural behavior.

 

But it would be difficult to compare one's tzujan to any general principles established by societies because these general principles have been established by individuals who have their own tzujan. That would be like comparing apples to oranges.

[Stosh]

I have had that discussion elsewhere and I still don't have a firm opinion.

 

The problems enter when a question like "Was Hitler following his tzujan?" is asked.

 

Our behavior (and therefore our character) can be intuitional (self onspired) or learned.

 

I think it can be stated without doubt that both Hitler and Mother Teresa followed their own nature. But their behavior was at opposite ends of a continuum.

 

Thing about tzujan is that if we feel we did the right thing regarding whatever we do or don't do then we are following our own tzujan. If we are in accord with our tzujan there will be no inner or mental conflict resulting from what we did or did not do. We would have followed our true nature.

 

If we ever say "I shouldn't have done that." I would think that we likely have an inner conflict between our learned behavior and our natural behavior.

 

But it would be difficult to compare one's tzujan to any general principles established by societies because these general principles have been established by individuals who have their own tzujan. That would be like comparing apples to oranges.

Does that mean that you dont feel there are-is universal virtue ,, truths about whats good for everyone anywhere? Where does this leave The book of classic virtue.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Does that mean that you dont feel there are-is universal virtue ,, truths about whats good for everyone anywhere? Where does this leave The book of classic virtue.

I do not accept the concept of universals. No such thing as universal virtue. No absolute truths either. The book is for reading for those interested in reading it.

 

Read the words, grasps the concepts, (test the concepts against reality), then forget the words. All books about truth are written by people with their own ideas of what the truth is. My truths may be different from theirs.

[Stosh]

I do not accept the concept of universals. No such thing as universal virtue. No absolute truths either. The book is for reading for those interested in reading it.

 

Read the words, grasps the concepts, (test the concepts against reality), then forget the words. All books about truth are written by people with their own ideas of what the truth is. My truths may be different from theirs.

I pretty much agree with all of that , ( except that there is nothing that can be said to be true .. if you are saying that ) very firmly in fact. But as regards the book , Laos or Chuangs or even Tsus ,, do you think that they promote any particular set of virtues?

Edited July 16, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

But as regards the book , Laos or Chuangs or even Tsus ,, do you think that they promote any particular set of virtues?

Oh!, absolutely! (I used that word without fear.)

 

The Three Treasures, Compassion, Frugality & Humility, are a perfect example.

 

While the TTC spoke often to governing others as well, The Chuang Tzu spoke almost entirely of governing one's self and presenting character traits (virtues) of which one should keep as a foundation for their self-development as well as one's interactions with others.

[Stosh]

Why do you think they are promoting as truths virtues which arent universals then ? I thought they were intensively tie ing the virtues expounded to the universal truths of ummm tao.

 

Ive been thinking on that usesless tree parable , do you connect it to those treasures?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Why do you think they are promoting as truths virtues which arent universals then ? I thought they were intensively tie ing the virtues expounded to the universal truths of ummm tao.

Remember that the TTC and The Chuang Tzu are both guide books, they are not dogmatic doctrine. They are more of the "if - then" sort of suggestions.

 

The sage does not go to war but if he has no choice but to go to war he will conduct himself in an honorable manner (killing only those who need to be killed).

 

Ive been thinking on that usesless tree parable , do you connect it to those treasures?

Yes, I have seen you playing around that useless tree. What a nice shady place to play. And no fear of anyone ever cutting it down because it is useless. Even travellers stop there for a short rest.

[Stosh]

From under the tree

I cant see where the border of justified and unjustified lies

nor can I understand honorable from dishonorable

nor tell how long to rest

 

I may end up cutting off a branch to take with me. Does that work?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

From under the tree

I cant see where the border of justified and unjustified lies

nor can I understand honorable from dishonorable

nor tell how long to rest

 

I may end up cutting off a branch to take with me. Does that work?

Hehehe. That will be a heavy load to carry. Plus, the leaves will soon fall any you would be carrying a useless branch. Better leave the branch on the tree.

 

Yes, under the tree all dualities fade. (Oops! That's a different thread.)

 

But I am sure that when your body has had sufficient rest it will let you know.

[Stosh]

Hehehe. That will be a heavy load to carry. Plus, the leaves will soon fall any you would be carrying a useless branch. Better leave the branch on the tree.

 

Yes, under the tree all dualities fade. (Oops! That's a different thread.)

 

But I am sure that when your body has had sufficient rest it will let you know.

Ok , Ill just work on getting the hang of it.

[nestentrie]

I wrote this little piece a few weeks ago for a blog that I'm umming and ahhing about maintaining. It's a sort of a blunt thing in the main, and almost has to be read cyclically for it to make proper sense. There also quite a few sharp points in it that could misconstrue the meaning, but I feel it's relevent to the conversation here so I'm sharing it (however imperfect it is).

 

I had read this thread as it was developing but have to admit I was doing a lot of skimming. If I'd realised the confluence then I'd have reworked this to make it fit into the flow of the thread (addressing people's posts and whatnot), but considering the thread hasn't had life for a while (and i'm only rereading it now) I think I'll just post what I've written as is:

 

The ACTIVE is to ask to be called and likewise respond when called to action. It is both pro-active and receptive. One can agree pro-actively (or posit that another must agree), believe pro-actively (or posit that another must believe), accept pro-actively (or posit that another must accept), and know pro-actively (or posit that another must know). One can also take it that another agrees before themself, that another believes before themself, that another accepts before themself, and that another knows things before oneself. Active receptivity is to receive these possibilities (and act accordingly).

 

[To posit what another should agree with/believe/accept and know is to take up passive substrate. It is the HOW of the Pivot. Likewise taking what another has (what THEY agree with, what THEY believe in, what THEY accept, and what THEY know) is aslo acting with the passive substrate. This is also the HOW of the Pivot. (For the Wu Xing this is in part the Mother-Son Relationship.)]

 

The NEUTER is to let what is be what it is. Neuter is to let be what should be/what can be/what will be/what is done be — without any deliberation or direct opposition. NEUTER is the Fulcrum around which things are achieved. NEUTUR is the present KARMA of the ACTIVE. Negative KARMA follows with the passive (and who’s substrate it belongs to).

 

[The reason WHY we let be what is be is because what is achieved is good. If it is not good we feel that the immediate recourse of the ACTIVE should/can/will/does respond. We feel that in fact the ACTIVE has been called, even if it is out of the sequence of the promoting. (For the Wu Xing this is in part the Father-Nephew relationship.)]

 

PASSIVE is to respond (or reflect), but not act in kind. Passive is to act in lesser fashion. Passive is THE Pivot. Passive is to wait on what kind of thing be asked (irrespective of agreement, belief, acceptance or knowledge), to wait on what kind of thing be called (irrespective of what the should, the can, the will or what does achieves), to wait on what kind of thing has been posited to have been achieved. It is to wait on whether something stands as it is or not. It is to to act (without acting) on what is to be that’s left to express itself by something else.

[Marblehead]

In real life we need to be able to attain any and all of those three states. This is because without all three of these capabilities we would find it ver hard to attain any sort of balance and harmony in our life.

 

Plant the seed and nurture the young plant (active), allow it to grow and mature (neuter), and enjoy the flowers it presents (passive).

 

I don't know if this has anything to do with the section of Chuang Tzu we were talking about but we were already off topic so it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

[Stosh]

In terms of conversational back and forth,

its not entirely passive or active or neutral as I see it ,

one is 'effecting' according to their way of seeing and acting , which is active,

and then theres things you just arent dealing with at the time , which is neutral ,

and there is accepting the stage is set which is passive.

 

Ill ask a question , which some might see as the passive part, but , it can be a very assertive thing to set a stage. If Mh opts to respond , you could say thats a passive thing , but actually its also an assertive thing , and he resets the stage , for my next question.

Now, I dont want to be bored , and dont want to bore him by asking what his favorite color is, so if were investigating something interesting, it should at least make us pause and reflect on what the other is saying asserting asking , and what oneself is saying asserting telling.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I have many different favorite colors. My clothing favorite color is brown. My vehicle favorite color is dark blue. (No, neither the Tundra or the Honda is that color.) My favorite color for a darker skinned woman is orange. For a lighter skinned waom it is light green or light blue. My favorite color in my gardens is dark green - the color of life. My favorite flower is any color except green.

 

But I am passive of all these colors except for my clothing. But then, I have just as many blue colored clothes as I have brown.

 

Okay, all that means nothing to anyone else. Yes, I have my preferences. If I have the choice I will select my preference. If I have no choice or if it doesn't matter then it just doesn't matter then, does it?

[Stosh]

Im not sure women look good dark orange. (like Jim Boehner)

But Hot pink bikinis do look nice on darker skin., sure you wont change to hot pink?

And for the lighter toned ladies I think white would work well.

for flowers , well , green and flowers dont look ripe, so Thats a pretty standard judgement.

Vehicles should be black here in fla , its easiest on the eyes, certainly gray is bad, since its invisible in the stormy weather.

But gotta agree , my tastes just dont matter much to anyone else, but it does seem kind of odd , that my opinion of someone else often is ,to them ! Isnt it?

 

hmmm Would a sage have a favorite color?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

 

But Hot pink bikinis do look nice on darker skin., sure you wont change to hot pink?

Any bikini is a good color.

 

 

hmmm Would a sage have a favorite color?

The color of sage?

[Stosh]

Silvery gray green , good for any thyme.

[GrandmasterP]

Autumnal shades here.

Old geezer clothing-colours as a rule, dark greens, browns; some greys.

Definitely blue for car colour preference.

The new one will be blue, this current one is red ( and knackered).

Vans have to be white ( that's the LAW!).

Edited July 30, 2014 by GrandmasterP