Dantein

[bluebird]

You have just spoken as if your are the person we might turn to for an explanation of this " truth" so it seems we do not need to "track down" someone as you are already here.

 

Please elucidate if you would on the original supposition.

 

I can see the possibility of its truth but in the context of the original poster damage appears far fetched.

 

Please take your time and clarify, I understand that certain levels of earth energy can have an effect of making energy systems more rigid within the body and so certain actions might not be best at those times, but if the techniques are done correctly one would not bring that much earth energy into the body in the first place. Generally no more than 2% and this is getting into the pretty rarified practice stuff at this point.

 

Some earth energy practices are not good for most human bodies, only for a certain few. Many translations of earth energy practices neglect to inform the reader of just how small a fraction should be brought in because either the translator or the teacher was clueless or not a particularly good technical teacher - or the teaching was leaked incorrectly to outsiders not aware of the finer high teaching, or for other reasons.

 

For the most part, people bringing in earth energy do not bring in more than their body can handle because they lack the concentration to do so - and this is more true of those typically bringing in the earth energy as they are usually more into vision.

 

 

Were I to do so here it would turn into a 20 page argument. I put my email out there, you and whomever else would like to contact me off site are welcome to do so.

 

I have to be very careful what I say, and perhaps even how much I say it if I don't want to wind up like my friends.

[Brian]

Hoist by their own petards?

[joeblast]

I have to be very careful what I say, and perhaps even how much I say it if I don't want to wind up like my friends.

unless its closed door secrets you've been asked not to share, or master saying please dont use my name, I dont want the public bothering me...then plainly spoken words will stand on their own merit

[dwai]

Not technically correct - the lower dan tian is not an imaginary location on your body and it is not "your abdomen". If anyone wishes to argue this please use your own experience and not any quotes (if you would like a response from me). Some would say the same is true of Chakras and they would be patently incorrect.

People who haven't experienced it will of course say that it doesn't exist. That is not a valid evidence of its existence or lack of it thereof.

 

People who have experienced it won't need convincing (unless of course they are massively self-delusional) :-)

 

To the OP, I think this topic keeps popping up every once in a while. No, you can't "rip", "break", "tear" or any other similar "destructive physical activity" your dantiens (which are the same as the chakras, imho). You can deplete your chi, and one of the things that does it is waste time and energy thinking of pointless subjects such as the original question. Thinking causes Chi to be burnt up/spent, thereby depleting the fuel in your tank (LDT). So, don't think much...do practice lots of tai chi, qi gong, nei gong, meditation, etc.

 

The more still and relaxed you are, the more you will become aware of your Dan Tians. The more you do tai chi, qigong, etc, the more the dan-tians will become active and fuel reserve will increase.

 

For instance, I woke up at 5 AM. Stepped out of my home at 6 AM and did Tai Chi and meditation till 7 AM. Feeling charged up and empty through and through. When you feel conflicted/confused, stop thinking, stop worrying and do some meditation or tai chi or whatever your esoteric tool for cultivation is. The more you make a habit of doing this, the more your ability to stop thinking and doing will get.

 

if you can't stop thinking during meditation, start doing some moving meditation - like Tai Chi forms, etc. That will channelize your mind into focusing on the movement/form and thereby neutralizing the self-destructive cycle of the think-bomb in your head.

 

Eventually whenever there is something worrying you or making you think (unnecessarily), you will do meditation automatically. Then your knowledge and judgment will come from meditation, where feeling will replace thinking. Feeling is more powerful thank thinking because feeling is real, thinking is artificial. So, trust your energy, trust your feeling and follow your instinct

Edited June 2, 2014 by dwai

[joeblast]

CD, eat your slice of humble pie and move on. We wouldnt need to correct oversimplifications and misunderstandings of yours if you didnt keep posting them repeatedly. Which wouldnt be an issue except that when you are corrected, you stubbornly act like you have some sort of authority and you must always be correct. If you practiced, you might, but when a large number of experienced practitioners here have pointed out your mistakes, its gotta tell you something, no?

[dwai]

Modern terms: Abdomen; belly; stomach

Taoist term: Lower dan tian

 

Why is so difficult to understand and distinguish them.....???

It isn't. They are not the same.

While I don't know the Chinese language, I do know Sanskrit and 4 other Indian languages. If someone were to argue with me that the Chakras were the various physical glands of the body, then I'd take issue. Because while the Chakras affect the glands, they are not physical organs/objects. They are energetic objects and they exist on the energetic plane.

 

You should learn about the various levels of existence/human body. The physical, the energetic, the mental, the spiritual etc.

In Sanskrit they are called Koshas (translated as sheaths). In classic yogic tradition, there are 5 such sheaths. The Chakras affect all sheaths but exist primarily in the energetic sheath (or pranamaya kosha). This is identically reflected in the Daoist as well as the Buddhist yogic framework.

 

It is silly to conflate ancient frameworks with modern...which is what you are doing imho.

Edited June 2, 2014 by dwai

[ChiDragon]

Let Nature take its course.

I rest my case.

[dawei]

Let Nature take its course.

 

I rest my case.

 

~~~ Admin action ~~~

 

Just cleaned up the thread... but some will not stop...

 

Already warned... and Spam yet again... repeating Ad nauseam without participating.

 

Vacation: 2 weeks.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Spotless]

You can see the chakras and the dan tien's, if you develop the sight they are very clear - they are not imaginary.

 

And a slight correction to one of the postings:

 

You can "rip, tear and damage" these energy centers.

 

The original post was with regard to ejaculation and absorbing earth energy in deep meditation within 3 days of ejaculation.

 

Given the context / "all and everything" of the original posters way of stating the questions - it was apparent that zero worry was necessary - but that does not mean that these energy centers are not subject to damage - they are subject to all sorts of forces and lack of forces.

 

Example:

We are constantly building up reserves of energy - yet we all have habits that deplete them.

 

We do not see the great reams of energy flying out of our space in anger and the disruption it causes within our energetic space nor the great delay it causes us because of the slow rebuilding process of the finer structures in our higher bodies.

 

Drugs can create many odd patterns.

 

Structural skeletal imbalances can create shutdowns in whole areas and without the effort of re routing or fixing these issues certain growth will typically grind to a halt for that life.

 

Advanced practice forced upon the system can create havoc that is frequently similar to heavy drug use / alcohol abuse.

 

Overall the body can handle a great deal, but when you start working with the higher octane fuels and the rocket systems begin working it can start to be like a chain smoker in a fireworks factory.

 

Let's say you have the tenacity to grind and bare 3 hours of meditation or few days at say 1 hour and you are a relative beginner but you have the drive.

Let's even imagine it was pretty "lousy" meditation that you got out of a book and put together from what you decided were the best parts.

 

You can walk away from this meditation with huge amounts of energy available to you.

For many this can be a difficult time to sit around and absorb this new space - you may go on a bender or stay up all night, binge eat, chain smoke, porn out or all of the above if these are your proclivities.

 

You may go in the opposite direction and start writing books and create classes based on fragments of other teachings and a lie in your space covered up by "results" if this direction is your proclivity - most of the books we have come from this.

 

You may also become hooked on everything that gets results the fastest - advanced breathing exercises, advanced area specific exercises - or just regular breathing and area specific exercises taken to the extreme. This is often an act of inducing a volatile racing fuel into a series of lawn mowers - you just blow the whole group out and end up in outer-space not knowing which end is up.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Even by doing just about everything wrong - intent and drive can heal even the very bottom and the most mislead.

 

Fear is the greater disfunction.

 

Don't fear ripping or damaging your dan Tien's - just don't go about beating them with a hammer and hanging out at fireworks factories while having a BBQ.

 

Even with the worst of it, you are untouched and spotless - don't confuse you and You.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Spotless

[Rara]

You can see the chakras and the dan tien's, if you develop the sight they are very clear - they are not imaginary.

 

And a slight correction to one of the postings:

 

You can "rip, tear and damage" these energy centers.

 

The original post was with regard to ejaculation and absorbing earth energy in deep meditation within 3 days of ejaculation.

 

Given the context / "all and everything" of the original posters way of stating the questions - it was apparent that zero worry was necessary - but that does not mean that these energy centers are not subject to damage - they are subject to all sorts of forces and lack of forces.

 

Example:

We are constantly building up reserves of energy - yet we all have habits that deplete them.

 

We do not see the great reams of energy flying out of our space in anger and the disruption it causes within our energetic space nor the great delay it causes us because of the slow rebuilding process of the finer structures in our higher bodies.

 

Drugs can create many odd patterns.

 

Structural skeletal imbalances can create shutdowns in whole areas and without the effort of re routing or fixing these issues certain growth will typically grind to a halt for that life.

 

Advanced practice forced upon the system can create havoc that is frequently similar to heavy drug use / alcohol abuse.

 

Overall the body can handle a great deal, but when you start working with the higher octane fuels and the rocket systems begin working it can start to be like a chain smoker in a fireworks factory.

 

Let's say you have the tenacity to grind and bare 3 hours of meditation or few days at say 1 hour and you are a relative beginner but you have the drive.

Let's even imagine it was pretty "lousy" meditation that you got out of a book and put together from what you decided were the best parts.

 

You can walk away from this meditation with huge amounts of energy available to you.

For many this can be a difficult time to sit around and absorb this new space - you may go on a bender or stay up all night, binge eat, chain smoke, porn out or all of the above if these are your proclivities.

 

You may go in the opposite direction and start writing books and create classes based on fragments of other teachings and a lie in your space covered up by "results" if this direction is your proclivity - most of the books we have come from this.

 

You may also become hooked on everything that gets results the fastest - advanced breathing exercises, advanced area specific exercises - or just regular breathing and area specific exercises taken to the extreme. This is often an act of inducing a volatile racing fuel into a series of lawn mowers - you just blow the whole group out and end up in outer-space not knowing which end is up.

I beg to differ on your first point. Any Taoist meditation turorials I have had, even new age ones for that matter, instruct one to imagine a purple ball if energy in the LDT for the former or a ball of white light around you for the latter etc etc.

 

Create with the mind, let it manifest into a reality.

 

I don't dispute anything else you have said about the cultivation etc in regard to the OP...it is pretty much common sense People tend to lose common sense when trying to hard to understand practice.

[Spotless]

I beg to differ on your first point. Any Taoist meditation turorials I have had, even new age ones for that matter, instruct one to imagine a purple ball if energy in the LDT for the former or a ball of white light around you for the latter etc etc.

Create with the mind, let it manifest into a reality.

I don't dispute anything else you have said about the cultivation etc in regard to the OP...it is pretty much common sense People tend to lose common sense when trying to hard to understand practice.

 

I am unclear with what you are differing with me:

 

It is fine to imagine something in the beginning - but this is not creating the LDT from scratch, nor is "imagining the chakras" creating the chakras.

I am not talking from a hypothetical standpoint - but even from a book learning standpoint I have never read anything that would infer that these things do not exist prior to acclimating one to them.

The imagination process is done for many reasons including acclimating to the use of intentional awareness upon areas in order to feel them and practice with the body as abilities come into ones awareness.

 

When you have acquired this sight you will see these energy centers in all animals including humans.

Actively working with them in the beginning is "pretending they are there" while in fact they are very much there already.

 

If you are reading books to the contrary they are either bad translations or written by one of the many writers of fiction in this regard.

 

 

[Rara]

I am unclear with what you are differing with me:It is fine to imagine something in the beginning - but this is not creating the LDT from scratch, nor is "imagining the chakras" creating the chakras. I am not talking from a hypothetical standpoint - but even from a book learning standpoint I have never read anything that would infer that these things do not exist prior to acclimating one to them.The imagination process is done for many reasons including acclimating to the use of intentional awareness upon areas in order to feel them and practice with the body as abilities come into ones awareness.When you have acquired this sight you will see these energy centers in all animals including humans.Actively working with them in the beginning is "pretending they are there" while in fact they are very much there already.If you are reading books to the contrary they are either bad translations or written by one of the many writers of fiction in this regard.

Oh right, I see. No, that is correct. I'm not saying that you are creating "it" from scratch, but the use of the mind is the source of locating/feeling it.

 

PS, I never said anythimg about reading. Just saying.

[Spotless]

Oh right, I see. No, that is correct. I'm not saying that you are creating "it" from scratch, but the use of the mind is the source of locating/feeling it.

PS, I never said anythimg about reading. Just saying.

I tend to dislike the use of "mind" for broad awareness capacities but it is not necessarily necessary to have the mind locate it - it can jump right out at you sometimes.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Spotless

[Rara]

@rainbowvein @spotless

 

Interesting - you both pretty much say the same thing.

 

Care to elaborate? I can't say I have ever experienced that. For me it has always been breath and focus on the dan tien/visualising qi circulating...to the heart, to the ldt, and round in a circle up the spine to the crown...

 

But that always required mindfulness. I have never had a dan tien make itself appear without me having the purpose to focus on it...

[joeblast]

just the difference between the two methods...both can work. both have their strengths. either search for the signal amidst the noise and try to recognize and enhance it, or let the signal to noise ratio enhancement happen as a result of applying practice fundamentals.

[Brian]

And it is really a balance of the two (or three?), to some extent -- dampen background noises whilst simultaneously broadening & honing perception.

[Spotless]

@rainbowvein @spotless

Interesting - you both pretty much say the same thing.

Care to elaborate? I can't say I have ever experienced that. For me it has always been breath and focus on the dan tien/visualising qi circulating...to the heart, to the ldt, and round in a circle up the spine to the crown...

But that always required mindfulness. I have never had a dan tien make itself appear without me having the purpose to focus on it...

Rara - this is a cut-and-paste from a previous post I made that fits your question:

 

When I was 14 my Lower Dan Tien (LDT) turned on.

I was at a ski area and it had turned to -5 degrees and I was in danger of hypothermia - I was not wearing much, the ski area had a swing in temperature of about 30 degrees. At about the time that I became very very concerned suddenly my LDT turned on and became quit hot, within just minutes my entire body was steaming from earlobes to toes. I was able to traverse through three ski lifts and get back to the lodge like this. When you add in wind factor as I was blasting down the hill with no hat on either, it was a pretty specific mechanism that was working. (I had no idea what it was at the time, but it was certainly not something I had developed in this life through any conscious practice)

 

The second time the same LDT turned on was during a breakup with a girlfriend - the emotions were very difficult and then just a suddenly as before my lower dan Tien turned on and just started processing these waves of emotion. When I say processing it was more like they all went into the furnace. (Same focused ball of heat).

 

The second event happened at a time when I was well aware of my chakras and I did not associate this phenomenon with the chakras. I was not at the time aware of the teaching of the dan Tien's.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Spotless

[Daeluin]

We are all born with a unique pattern.

Perhaps fulfilling our destiny is related to harmonizing this pattern.

So then it may pass freely to what is next, without becoming trapped.

Perhaps when we are already trapped, we need a specific set of circumstances to call us back into a new body.

Perhaps in conception, the energies created between the two people and the location in the flow of gravities in time are what decides what spirit is called into form.

 

Our solar system forms an interesting container.

Within a backdrop of stars, there is quite discernable shifting amidst the balance.

Not only does one's birth match the particular balance of the moment, it also matches the very clear mazes of change ahead through time.

 

The same is true of the ebb and flow of the five forces.

All patterning systems show the same thing in different ways.

 

The slower changes are subtle, mysterious, and ever churning along.

Amidst them all we can make our own choices, towards this polarity or that.

As further separation of the five forces occurs in society, more noise is created.

Yet even this noise reflects the same patterns held in the planets.

And they reflect the same patterns held in the stars.

 

I have much to learn, far to go.

And yet I am ageless.

Even so, my pattern was born into this life.

To unfold amidst this particular pattern of change.

 

My choice is to follow the path of separation and noise.

Or listen to and follow what is behind the noise.

If I am always opening new doors within every room I enter,

How will I see the whole?
How will I think life is anything but a maze?

As I am able to let go of the path of post-heaven,

I begin closing doors and unifying myself.

Protuberances wear away and concavities are filled,

Stability illuminates and the maze is straightened,

The tao shines brightly at the end.

 

Many paths return to the tao.

I am led to one that suits my bent.

So long as I listen and maintain sincerity,

I am led towards greater integration.

 

We all unfold through time uniquely destined for us.

Some may find the conditions right to spontaneously manifest higher development.

If that is in our flow.

Some may find we need to work harder and build things up over time.

If that is in our flow.

Some may work with intensity, only to abandon intensely!

If that is in our flow.

All will come to a point of stability in time.

If we make the choice towards constant sincerity.

 

When we let go of sincerity, our development culminates and invites conditioning.

How quickly will we spend what has built up?

The very triggers that cause us to abandon sincerity,

Are the challenges built into our path through time.

When we pass through them, they forge us stronger.

When we scatter before them, we pick ourselves up and start over again.

 

 

I've learned much from this thread, thank you!

I am slow to awaken to my path, and have encountered so many ups and downs.

Lately I've been thinking of my lower dan tien as my humility.

When I feel like I have energy, I want to use it.

When I slow down and still my heart/mind, focusing down to ltd,

it is like stabilizing my cauldron and allowing the furnace to work its magic.

I have experienced the effects of various deep traumas and bad posture,

and whatever technique I apply, maintaining gentle sincerity helps the most.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

When I slow down and still my heart/mind, focusing down to ltd,

it is like stabilizing my cauldron and allowing the furnace to work its magic.

 

That is the exactly description originated the notion about Neidan(內丹, internal alchemy) from the ancient Chinese Taoists. The "cauldron and allowing the furnace to work its magic" is the external alchemy(外丹, Waidan) in making pills for longevity. The ancient Chinese Taoists took the Waidan(外丹) idea and applied internally to the LDT and came up with the idea about Neidan(內丹).

 

 

Edited June 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Daeluin]

 

That is the exactly description originated the notion about Neidan(內丹, internal alchemy) from the ancient Chinese Taoists. The "cauldron and allowing the furnace to work its magic" is the external alchemy(外丹, Waidan) in making pills for longevity. The ancient Chinese Taoists took the Waidan(外丹) idea and applied internally to the LDT and came up with the idea about Neidan(內丹).

 

 

 

Recently I've been reading Liu I-ming's Awakening to the Tao (tl Cleary).

I've seen the Cauldron / Furnace metaphors in other classics, and found this one more accessable.

Also it seems pretty on topic, so...

(I wonder if it's ok to post book excerpts here?)

 

"Steadying the Furnace and Setting up the Cauldron

 

When alchemists cook medicines, first they must steady the furnace and set up the cauldron. The quality of the cauldron is firmness, whereby the medicine is contained; the quality of the furnace is flexibility, whereby the firing is operated. If the cauldron is not strong, the medicine is easily lost; if the furnace is not steady, the fire flies off at random.

 

What I realize as I observe this is the Tao of refining body and mind. Firmness of determination in cultivating the Tao is the cauldron. Becoming stronger with perseverance, never turning back even though foiled a hundred times, being imperturbable, unwavering -- this is "setting up the cauldron." Alert observation at all times is the furnace. Working gradually, serenely, unpressured -- this is "steadying the furnace."

 

When the cauldron and furnace are stabilized properly, you burn away the acquired habits that have become compulsive over the course of personal history, thus bringing to light the original state of completeness, sloughing off all acquired pollutants.

 

When the slag is gone and the gold is pure, you get rid of the old and take the new. Now you change the furnace and cauldron, and set aside the tongs and bellows, to do advanced work, melting the real gold down into liquid and frost, returning to the state before birth.

 

So it is that the alchemical classics and writings of the adepts consider steadying the furnace and setting up the cauldron the first priority."

[dawei]

Recently I've been reading Liu I-ming's Awakening to the Tao (tl Cleary).

I've seen the Cauldron / Furnace metaphors in other classics, and found this one more accessable.

Also it seems pretty on topic, so...

(I wonder if it's ok to post book excerpts here?)

 

 

Please start your own thread. that would be interesting.

[ChiDragon]

Hi, Daeluin....

What you have given here was a metaphor by saying: If one wants to accomplish a goal, then one must begin with the correct procedures to set everything right. Please remember, at the ancient time, the people did not have the scientific mind like us. Thus they had to use some imaginations for explaining the unfathomable mysteries; and came up with their own fictional ideas.

[joeblast]

every time you post something coherent, you have to turn around and sully it with a post like that

[Daeluin]

Knowledge is limitless, but our lifetimes have a limit.

 

Today we have great accessibility to knowledge via science and eficacy of various principles (often communicated via metaphor). But if we aren't careful, we get trapped by such understandings. The ancient ones did not need them to find the tao. The triplex unity introduced these alchemical terms that have contributed to much great confusion. To me the deeper teachings exist in the tao te ching and chuang tsu, where alchemical effects may be found by cultivating virtue. If one cultivates energies, but not virtue, how far can one get?

 

My aim in both previous posts is to feed the essence of this thread:

How does one care for one's dan tien(s)?

 

We do so in many ways, and there seem to be many levels and opinions on how we understand this.

Perhaps trying to explain something so mysterious as the pattern of change through time and how it uniquely applies to each of us was rather ambitious.

 

But the idea here is that we all have our own unique flow through time. We don't need to understand it, we need to be sincere and gentle with ourselves. Nothing else.

 

Liu I-ming takes the (complicated) metaphor oft used in Taoist Alchemical Classics and simplifies it by putting it in terms of things we can ALL understand.

 

• Becoming stronger with perseverance, never turning back even though foiled a hundred times, being imperturbable, unwavering -- this is "setting up the cauldron."
• Alert observation at all times is the furnace. Working gradually, serenely, unpressured -- this is "steadying the furnace."

To work on our dan tien's without harming them, these points seem to be at the heart.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Daeluin