Flowing Hands Interview

[dawei]

I have asked Flowing Hands if he will do an interview and he has agreed.

 

He has posted mostly in the Taoist Forum and those subforums, particularly concerning the Tao Te Ching.

 

He is a Daoist Shaman although I recall him once saying there is really no word to properly categorize him... so that has to do.

 

TTB Profile:

http://thetaobums.com/user/78909-flowing-hands/

 

 

his website:

http://www.life-in-crisis.info/shaman-flowing-hands.htm

 

 

 

The next post will be a bio. It is really difficult to do a bio so I will use his own words as taken from this site in conversation with members. I hope this might answer some basic questions and generate the rest.

 

Please provide questions for Flowing Hands. Once we have up to 20, then I'll submit them to him for answers. After that time, the thread will be open for general Q&A follow-up.

[dawei]

Various Posts from Flowing Hands. If you read this thread, you will get the most information possible on him.

 

Taken From: http://thetaobums.com/topic/22407-the-dao-de-jhing-is-a-shamanistic-treatise/

 

The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

 

There is no one term nowadays to describe a Dao shaman like me. There are names that mean 'spirit writer', medium, etc. and it depends on the origin of the practice. For myself, I am like the original wu, who will dance the healing invocation to heal many people at once, as well as do the fa fu and fa shui.

This category is mostly like the Chinese shamans of the past. The wu character depicts a woman dancing because women were the equal of men and that Dao is a feminine practice if one wants to divide these things up.

 

A shaman or shamaness, is someone who firstly communicates with the spirits of the spirit world. The connection between living and non-living is indeed very close and the difference very small. All things share in the one, all things are fired by energy, all things are connected whether alive or dead.

 

Shamanism is not a religion as such, though there may be seen religious ingredients within its practices.

 

Dao shamans do not travel to the spirit world as such, the spirit comes to them. In Siberian practices the drum was used to aid the shaman to journey to the spirit world. Drugs may be used to help on this visionary journey. Of course many a shaman has been mistaken by his/her own mind as unlike the Dao shaman he/she does not properly know whether the spirit has been communicated with.

The modern interest in shamanism is based on this. There are many people who take up the Siberian way and then use drugs and pretend that they have journeyed to the spirit world but in reality no such thing has happened. Plastic shamans is the modern label. Journeying the soul to the spirit world is a very high practice and not easily done. I have always practiced that the Immortal comes to me then there is never a mistake.

 

There are no drugs, no altered states by means of drums or dancing. When you beg for the Immortal to come only a sincere heart will alert him to your call. He/she will come to you physically and move you powerfully. You will know when he/she has come. There are no mind games, no way to fool yourself and others. You can't just decide to become a shaman, you are chosen by the Immortal by them coming to you after a period of you showing them your sincere heart and faith. Anything else is plastic shamanism.

 

These practices have been taken and organised into religion. Religion has really nothing to do with shamanism. Temple Taoism, which may have a shaman or medium present, is very different to lay shamanism which is the true art. Women in Tao shamanism are viewed equally as men there is no difference, and the word for shaman comes from a woman dancing with feathers; a ritual of shamans that is used to heal groups of people together. In ancient times the shaman/shamaness were the head of the village. Ritual dance and prayers were important for the well being of the people the land and all life around them. They would consult the shaman for many things. The shaman would consult the spirits that lived in the local area. It was a dangerous job for a shaman in those days. When particular shamans became powerful with 'divine' energy and they died, people got to beleive in their spirits. Some shamans became Immortal, their energy lives living forever. So nowadays we have many gods who people beleive in and shamans don't have to open themselves up to any spirit that would come along.

Now religion is human made it is more to do with the politics of altering human behavior on mass. Of making the beauty of human life in to a sin, to knock out the beauty of acting naturally and turning things that are natural to be wrong and dirty. To divide people so that they hate each other so much that they will kill someone from another religion. Shamanism connects all people, all life and all spirit. Religion does not.

 

'Tradition' meaning it has a long lineage stretching back thousands of years. The head of the lineage is the Immortal master who trains shamans to various stages of skill and knowledge. The spark is given by the Immortal master, although I can transmit and give power and teachings to another person it doesn't mean that they will be automatically taught by any spirit or Immortal master. It is the Immortal master who decides who he or she will teach.

[Friend]

1. Lately I came across of an old book, something old for me

as it was the first english book Lighthing of the Eye of Dragon by Baolin Wu

I ordered and after more a decade I came back to read it on a kindle about the ethics

which resonate with me and let me think about the "sincere heart" you mention

and being a "good and moral person" in the Jing Dong Gong .

 

About two people which get their power by effort and the other kind drawing power from the ethics

and to be "far away from fame" as

"This sort of poweroriented thinking created Ba Qi (stopped Qi) in the body,

which clouds the Original Energy and thereby disrupts the abillity to harmonize with nature" (p.198)

 

So I get interested to know what you mean by a "sincere heart", how you cultivated it so far

to draw the interest of immortals.

[silent thunder]

This is a follow up to the previous question:

 

How do you reconcile the challenging feelings generated when dealing with the harsher elements of human nature and life's ailments?

 

Another way to put it is what do you do to recharge the heart when it has been challenged?

[Cheshire Cat]

How is it that we can read this story in the Chuang Tzu that distinguish between shamans and wayfarers?

 

 

 

Chuang Tzu (7): Hu Tzu and the Shaman, the Death of Chaos

This excerpt comprises the second half of chapter seven, also known as the last of the ‘Inner Chapters’.

 

In Cheng there was a shaman of the gods named Chi Hsien. He could tell whether men would live or die, survive or perish, be fortunate or unfortunate, live a long time or die young, and he would predict the year, month, week, and day as though he were a god himself. When the people of Cheng saw him, they dropped everything and ran out of his way. Lieh Tzu went to see him and was completely intoxicated. Returning, he said to Hu Tzu, “I used to think, Master, that your Way was perfect. But now I see there is something even higher!”

 

Hu Tzu said, “I have already showed you all the outward forms, but I haven’t yet showed you the substance-and do you really think you have mastered this Way of mine? There may be a flock of hens but, if there is no rooster, how can they lay fertile eggs? You take what you know of the Way and wave it in the face of the world, expecting to be believed! This is the reason men can see right through you. Try bringing your shaman along next time and letting him get a look at me.”

 

The next day Lieh Tzu brought the shaman to see Hu Tzu. When they had left the room, the shaman said, “I’m so sorry – your master is dying! There’s no life left in him – he won’t last the week. I saw something very strange-something like wet ashes!”

Lieh Tzu went back into the room, weeping and drenching the collar of his robe with tears, and reported this to Hu. Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him with the Pattern of Earth – still and silent, nothing moving, nothing standing up. He probably saw in me the Workings of Virtue Closed Off. Try bringing him around again.”

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, “It certainly was lucky that your master met me! He’s going to get better – he has all the signs of life! I could see the stirring of what had been closed off!”

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him as Heaven and Earth – no name or substance to it, but still the workings, coming up from the heels. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Good One. Try bringing him again.”

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, “Your master is never the same! I have no way to physiognomize him! If he will try to steady himself, then I will come and examine him again.”

 

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him as the Great Vastness Where Nothing Wins Out. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Balanced Breaths. Where the swirling waves gather there is an abyss; where the still waters gather there is an abyss; where the running waters gather there is an abyss. The abyss has nine names and I have shown him three. Try bringing him again.”

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, but before the shaman had even come to a halt before Hu Tzu, his wits left him and he fled.

“Run after him!” said Hu Tzu, but though Lieh Tzu ran after him, he could not catch up. Returning, he reported to Hu Tzu, “He’s vanished! He’s disappeared! I couldn’t catch up with him.”

 

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him as Not Yet Emerged from My Source. I came at him empty, wriggling and turning, not knowing anything about `who’ or `what,’ now dipping and bending, now flowing in waves – that’s why he ran away.”

After this, Lieh Tzu concluded that he had never really begun to learn anything. He went home and for three years did not leave his house. He did all of the cooking for his wife, fed the pigs as though he were feeding people, and showed no preferences in the things he did. He got rid of the carving and polishing and returned to plainness, letting his body stand alone like a clod. In the midst of entanglement he remained sealed, and in this oneness he stayed until the end of his days.

 

[joeblast]

watched the vid on the page, every time ee put his hands together, my palms pulsated

[dawei]

Jump starting a few potential questions. Although FLowing Hands has spoken to most of these issues already, they are scattered across posts, threads, etc... but hopefully it will generate some questions.

 

 

SELF-CULTIVATION and SPIRITUAL PRACTICES:

 

You once said, " I once had the great honor to speak with an Immortal called 'The Old Wise Immortal of Flowering Blossom Mountain', he had been an Immortal for over 100,000 years! We know that spiritual, and energy practices stretch back a very long way"

 

- What are some of the most original or oldest practices which we can use today?

 

 

- While there is much talk of Qigong vs Neigong vs alchemy practices... Can you recommend and comment on self-cultivation and spiritual practices? What would be a minimum for anyone? Can you get specific into higher practices people can do alone or should they only do beyond the basic with a master?

 

 

- Dao Xin: You have often talked about this being one of the most important issues in self-cultivation. Can you explain this? (maybe answered above)

 

- Semen retention and Celibacy practices: Do you have any recommendations on this? Most of the practices known originate with Mantak Chia.

 

 

ALCHEMY PRACTICES:

You once said, "You cannot refine Qi to shen".

 

 

There is much written/translated/discussed about practices which have been called visualization or alchemy practices. What can you say about this?

 

 

 

DDJ:

 

The five themes in the DDJ you mentioned before:

1 the self
2 the female principle
3 the spirit/ energy
4 politics and human wisdom
5 enlightenment and spiritual cultivation

 

Can you comment briefly on each?

 

 

You once said, "If one wants to become enlightened one really only needs these two chapters, (1 and 52):

 

Can you briefly comment on the main point you would make?

 

 

You once said the DDJ is "deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things."

 

Is it also a political treatise for the ruler (as a reflection of a belief system for ruling)?

 

Is it also for self-cultivation and spiritual practice? Which chapters do you recommend beyond 1 and 52?

 

 

SPIRITS AND IMMORTALS:

 

You once said: "The Buddha's may live in the western paradise but they have to come under the control of the Daoist Heaven. We must remember that some of the Daoist Immortals predate even the existence of our Earth.

 

I do know there are far more ancient masters that are Immortals that generally people have never heard of."

 

Can you comment more on this?

 

 

You once said: "I have communicated with Quan Yin on many occasions over the years, as one of my Masters was her student (Chi Tien Da Shen).

Her Pure Path Sect has practices that help people to further themselves towards Bhudda-hood. Quan Yin is the Goddess of great mercy and she will help people or any life if they are sincere in their asking. She lives in the Southern Heaven, ie one would look up to the sky to the South. She is a real spiritual entity and I do know some stories and first hand accounts of her Temple in Melaka, Malaysia, as well as my own experiences. "

 

Can you share more about her?

 

 

 

 

 

ENLIGHTENMENT:

 

You once said, "A spiritual entity is energy without a physical body. An Immortal is a energy entity that is extremely powerful. Cultivating this energy and a pure heart is the path to true enlightenment. This can be taught by an Immortal Master."

 

 

For those who cannot have a master, what do you recommend they focus their spiritual practice on?

 

PRIMORDIAL WORLD AND MANIFESTATION:

 

You once said:

"the primordial energy that exists and is the basis of the Tao and is ever present in all things.

 

Qi is passed on like a chain, like a chain of cells, they are neither post or pre heaven. The terms misleads and obscures a true understanding.

All life is a link in this chain, the chain joins us all together, whatever life we are. The qi we have is all post settlement of the earth when the environment was right for life to form. The qi is post big bang. What we do with this and how we cultivate this afterwards is then another matter. The chain of qi is then passed on to another life by the chain of DNA. We do not acquire qi if we are part of the chain and all life is, we can only enhance what we have as part of that chain. "

 

You have stated there is no such thing really as pre- and post-heaven Qi... how do you describe or explain or name the power that can be exhibited by high level practitioners or masters? Is that only from the 'chain of Qi' or is it a spiritual power (not a energetic power) ?

[cheya]

Wow! Great questions, Dawei!

 

I guess I hadn't been paying enough attention to grasp the potential here, But I sure am now!

 

Thank you!

[dawei]

I was talking with Flowing Hands concerning Laozi's teacher... the response was quite different from the historical record.

 

If anyone wants to research this.... it is an interesting journey.

[Cheshire Cat]

How is it that we can read this story in the Chuang Tzu that distinguish between shamans and wayfarers?

 

 

Chuang Tzu (7): Hu Tzu and the Shaman, the Death of Chaos

 

This excerpt comprises the second half of chapter seven, also known as the last of the ‘Inner Chapters’.

 

In Cheng there was a shaman of the gods named Chi Hsien. He could tell whether men would live or die, survive or perish, be fortunate or unfortunate, live a long time or die young, and he would predict the year, month, week, and day as though he were a god himself. When the people of Cheng saw him, they dropped everything and ran out of his way. Lieh Tzu went to see him and was completely intoxicated. Returning, he said to Hu Tzu, “I used to think, Master, that your Way was perfect. But now I see there is something even higher!”

 

Hu Tzu said, “I have already showed you all the outward forms, but I haven’t yet showed you the substance-and do you really think you have mastered this Way of mine? There may be a flock of hens but, if there is no rooster, how can they lay fertile eggs? You take what you know of the Way and wave it in the face of the world, expecting to be believed! This is the reason men can see right through you. Try bringing your shaman along next time and letting him get a look at me.”

 

The next day Lieh Tzu brought the shaman to see Hu Tzu. When they had left the room, the shaman said, “I’m so sorry – your master is dying! There’s no life left in him – he won’t last the week. I saw something very strange-something like wet ashes!”

Lieh Tzu went back into the room, weeping and drenching the collar of his robe with tears, and reported this to Hu. Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him with the Pattern of Earth – still and silent, nothing moving, nothing standing up. He probably saw in me the Workings of Virtue Closed Off. Try bringing him around again.”

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, “It certainly was lucky that your master met me! He’s going to get better – he has all the signs of life! I could see the stirring of what had been closed off!”

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him as Heaven and Earth – no name or substance to it, but still the workings, coming up from the heels. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Good One. Try bringing him again.”

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, “Your master is never the same! I have no way to physiognomize him! If he will try to steady himself, then I will come and examine him again.”

 

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him as the Great Vastness Where Nothing Wins Out. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Balanced Breaths. Where the swirling waves gather there is an abyss; where the still waters gather there is an abyss; where the running waters gather there is an abyss. The abyss has nine names and I have shown him three. Try bringing him again.”

 

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, but before the shaman had even come to a halt before Hu Tzu, his wits left him and he fled.

“Run after him!” said Hu Tzu, but though Lieh Tzu ran after him, he could not catch up. Returning, he reported to Hu Tzu, “He’s vanished! He’s disappeared! I couldn’t catch up with him.”

 

Hu Tzu said, “Just now I appeared to him as Not Yet Emerged from My Source. I came at him empty, wriggling and turning, not knowing anything about `who’ or `what,’ now dipping and bending, now flowing in waves – that’s why he ran away.”

After this, Lieh Tzu concluded that he had never really begun to learn anything. He went home and for three years did not leave his house. He did all of the cooking for his wife, fed the pigs as though he were feeding people, and showed no preferences in the things he did. He got rid of the carving and polishing and returned to plainness, letting his body stand alone like a clod. In the midst of entanglement he remained sealed, and in this oneness he stayed until the end of his days.

 

How could one claim that taoism is shamanism ??

[dawei]

How could one claim that taoism is shamanism ??

 

 

Please see here and if there is more specific questions:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/21383-tao-taoism-motivation-and-reality/?p=312039

Chinese thought was very much surrounded by shamanistic society in these times, it was the first form of belief in China. Li Erh was part of that culture and society and would have written his text with this as part of his belief and thought.

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/21383-tao-taoism-motivation-and-reality/?p=312013

Shamanism was the beginning of Tao: an observation of the natural world its interconnection and energies that all living and non-living things share. Following that path is the Tao. Describing it and living it is the difficult part.

 

The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[Daeluin]

Well the concept of 'jing' what is it? Its certainly not as described like some strange entity that exists in the body. It is you, me, what we are, the sum total of all that has made us from the very beginning of all things. It is qi, it is Shen, without it we have no qi or shen they are not separate entities. The process of qi and shen, though having said this, is controlled by what we have inherited; this influences our cultivation. Some people have no need for sexual abstinence but can enhance their qi and shen. Some peoples jing; they cannot cultivate without abstinence, there really is no set rule only on how the body reacts to cultivation. Qi cannot be refined to shen. To become an Immortal you must cultivate a yin body energy balanced then with yang. The spirit world is yin, to enter the spirit world and be powerful in that world one cultivates the yin side, the yang side cultivates the material world. The golden light comes from the spirit world of yin not yang.

 

This is just an outward expression, one must face the self, and realize the nine teachings of Daoism, with this understanding, Immortality can be obtained. The three treasures are you in total, they are not separate and depend on each other to make you what you are.

 

I would like to hear more about the nine teachings of Daoism Flowing Hands mentions.

[dawei]

I was talking with Flowing Hands concerning Laozi's teacher... the response was quite different from the historical record.

 

If anyone wants to research this.... it is an interesting journey.

 

So the question I'll add based on this:

 

 

You said that Laozi had a teacher from Mao Shan. Can you relate more information?

[dawei]

I would like to finalize a list but I would like to get about six more questions so that we cover issues which members want to hear from Flowing Hand.

 

Even if you don't have a specific question, is there a topic of interest?

 

 

If you don't want to post here, feel free to PM me too.

[Brian]

Would you please summarize your list of questions for sifu Flowing Hands so far?

[dawei]

Would you please summarize your list of questions for sifu Flowing Hands so far?

 

Core Background Questions:

a. What teaching/system/lineage has the interviewee been exposed to?

 

Expanded question: Is there a particular lineage associated with the temple where you connected with Li Erh? Are you thereby connected to the lineage or are you an "independent" when it comes to lineages?

 

 

I am also interested to know what sorts of rituals and practices are a part of this temple, and what the aspirations are of the monks who maintain it.

 

 

b. What form of practices has the interviewee been exposed to? (qigong, alchemy, Taiji, shamanism, magic, etc)

 

c. What is the interviewees most recent (last few years) interest in energy arts, self-cultivation, or spiritual practices? What is your current thoughts on Daoism in this modern day?

 

 

Cultivating the Heart:

Dao Xin: You have often talked about this being one of the most important issues in self-cultivation.

1. What you mean by a "sincere heart", how you cultivated it so far to draw the interest of immortals.

 

2. How do you reconcile the challenging feelings generated when dealing with the harsher elements of human nature and life's ailments? Another way to put it is what do you do to recharge the heart when it has been challenged?

 

Practices:

 

You once said, "A spiritual entity is energy without a physical body. An Immortal is a energy entity that is extremely powerful. Cultivating this energy and a pure heart is the path to true enlightenment. This can be taught by an Immortal Master."

 

3. For those who cannot have a master, what do you recommend they focus their practice on?

4. Can higher energy and spiritual practices be done without a master?

 

5. Semen retention and Celibacy practices: Do you have any recommendations on this? Most of the practices known originate with Mantak Chia.

 

There is a lot of history about practices which have been called visualization or alchemy practices.

 

6. What can you say about these as longevity practices?

 

You once said, "You cannot refine Qi to shen".

 

7. How do you explain Jing/Essence, Qi/Energy, and Shen/Spirit?

 

You have stated there is no such thing really as pre- and post-heaven Qi

 

8. How do you describe or explain or name the power that can be exhibited by high level practitioners or masters? Is that only from the 'chain of Qi' or is it a spiritual power (not a energetic power)?

9. What is the most extraordinary experience you have had?

 

 

Shamanism:

In relation to Zhuangzi’s story of Hu Tzu and the Shaman

10. How does Zhuangzi distinguish between a Shaman and a Wayfarer?

11. How can one claim Shamanism is Taoism?

12. How does the modern Taoist practically apply this section?

 

13. Is Shamanism for today? Can one start on the path of a Shaman?

 

Teaching:

14. What are the nine teachings of Daoism?

15. Do we have past lives, and if yes, can we remember them?

 

The DDJ and Laozi:

The five themes in the DDJ you mentioned before:

1 the self

2 the female principle

3 the spirit/ energy

4 politics and human wisdom

5 enlightenment and spiritual cultivation

 

16. Can you summarize or comment briefly on each?

 

 

You said that Laozi had a teacher from Mao Shan.

17. Can you relate more information?

 

You once said, "If one wants to become enlightened one really only needs these two chapters, (1 and 52):

 

18. Can you briefly comment on the main point you would make?

 

 

You once said the DDJ is "deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things."

 

19. Is it also a political treatise for the ruler (as a reflection of a belief system for ruling)?

20. Which chapters do you recommend beyond 1 and 52?

 

 

Spirits and Immortals:

 

21. What can you relate about spirits and immortals in Heaven?

 

You once said: "The Buddha's may live in the western paradise but they have to come under the control of the Daoist Heaven. We must remember that some of the Daoist Immortals predate even the existence of our Earth.

 

I do know there are far more ancient masters that are Immortals that generally people have never heard of."

 

22. Can you comment more on this?

 

 

You once said: "I have communicated with Quan Yin on many occasions over the years, as one of my Masters was her student (Chi Tien Da Shen).

 

Her Pure Path Sect has practices that help people to further themselves towards Bhudda-hood. Quan Yin is the Goddess of great mercy and she will help people or any life if they are sincere in their asking. She lives in the Southern Heaven, ie one would look up to the sky to the South. She is a real spiritual entity and I do know some stories and first hand accounts of her Temple in Melaka, Malaysia, as well as my own experiences. "

 

23. Can you share more about her?

 

 

You once said, " I once had the great honor to speak with an Immortal called 'The Old Wise Immortal of Flowering Blossom Mountain', he had been an Immortal for over 100,000 years! We know that spiritual, and energy practices stretch back a very long way"

 

24. Have the energy practices changed that much or has much been lost?

 

 

There is a video of begging for the immortal to come and draw the Fu. But you have mentioned communicating with spirit masters or immortals as above.

 

25. What is it like and what form does it take when the spirit master comes to you? How do you know when he/she has come?

 

Future Events:

 

Your website show a cataclysmic event.

26. Can you explain how you came to this vision and what you hope to accomplish with this information?

27. What can average folks or practitioners do?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A lot of interesting questions here. I look forward to reading the answers.

 

One more that I think some would like to know:

 

Is there a particular lineage associated with the temple where you connected with Li Erh? Are you thereby connected to the lineage or are you an "independent" when it comes to lineages?

 

I am also interested to know what sorts of rituals and practices are a part of this temple, and what the aspirations are of the monks who maintain it.

 

 

Thank you for your time, and consideration in sharing your knowledge with us.

[dawei]

The questions have been passed along. Thanks to all for contributing.