What is wisdom in Dzogchen ?

[Anderson]

This word yeshe gets thrown about all the time by dzogchen scholars but so far i haven't found a satisfactory answer about what exactly is wisdom in the day to day circumstances like when you drink your coffee or when you walk your dog or in cases where you have to choose between this and that and so on...

What is wisdom in those circumstances ?

 

If you can't answer this question without terms like "non-arisen", "illusory" "empty of characteristics", "non-inherent" then i am afraid to say that your theoretical grasp of dozgchen view doesn't match your experiential understanding of dzogchen praxis.

 

For me it is fundamental that when you talk like"nothing is inherently real" , "one's nature, is originally pure and self-perfected" ,that you can lay it bare in front of you right now and say " and the experience of that is like this and this and this".

 

I am not satisfied anymore with this kind of formulations and the dozgchen jargon which can give a false impression that someone is very learned when in reality they've only read books and their experience is nada.

 

For me it is of paramount importance that the things that i was taught can be implemented in day to day circumstances.I work with people with challenging behavior where there is always a threat for your safety and these days i am increasingly convinced that to develop the ability to apply dzogchen in these circumstances it remains at the level of a nice ideal.

[doc benway]

Wisdom is the basis.

In day to day circumstances, it is the knowledge of the true nature of things as they truly are, not simply as they appear to be.

Or something like that...

At least that's what I work towards.

[ralis]

Wisdom is the basis.

In day to day circumstances, it is the knowledge of the true nature of things as they truly are, not simply as they appear to be.

Or something like that...

At least that's what I work towards.

 

"Truly are"? I don't think that answers the question. Practical examples would be useful.

[子泰]

it could be whatever it is that you learn through teachings but realize through practice and abide by afterwards. as for the actual content, that could be anything

[GrandmasterP]

Whatever one decides it to be perhaps?

One would, at or beyond the point of attempting to articulate said 'wisdom' to another; be completely wrong.

Edited June 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[子泰]

or maybe its just a lack of stupidity

[GrandmasterP]

Not necessarily.

[Anderson]

Wisdom is the basis.

In day to day circumstances, it is the knowledge of the true nature of things as they truly are, not simply as they appear to be.

Or something like that...

At least that's what I work towards.

 

Unfortunately for the most of us the appearances arise simultaneously with ignorance since when we are presented with a cup of tea do we REALLY see the empty aspect ?.

I am afraid not.

Now you tell me how many decades one has to work until the appearance of a cup is actually seen for what it truly is , empty but apparent, or until the neighbour who barks at you for whatever reason is seen as an apparition , apparent but empty(appearance which is also understood as empty) and as a result of that you don't engender feelings of hatred or aggression which usually are a sign that a detail in your experience has been isolated and grasped at ?

 

Wisdom is the basis ?

Really ?

That's like saying.. wrhgljnljrhohsd is lwejfljdskfk

Incomprehensible.

[C T]

My teacher said once, "There is no need to search for the aspects. Its already so (empty yet cognizable)". Nirmanakaya aspect, the bliss of form arise. From the Dharmakaya aspect, the bliss of emptiness (empty of self) arise. The manifestation of Samboghakaya allows the enjoyment of both. Actually, its all the one unfolding, but the training mind takes time to sync the seamless unfolding, so it appears that one has to conceptualize the aspects individually. The trained mind, well, thats when grasping (at names to forms) ends. What follows when there is no more clinging and aversion? People sometimes misunderstand that things gradually become empty, after years of practice... its not so. There is no 'becoming empty' -- it is already empty, and because of that basis, forms can be what they are. When the small doubts around this slowly dismantle with practice, clarity takes root, and wisdom flowers. Its also one seamless process, not three distinct stages of revelation.

 

If things are not already empty, order will not be possible.

[rex]

I don't think you'll ever get a satisfactory intellectual answer from anyone, especially when reference is being made to the non-conceptual. For people who have some experience and recognition of what is being pointed to, a few ordinary words would suffice, but this is assuming of course that speaker and listener both have this.

[Apech]

For me the idea of wisdom and wisdom as the basis is that awareness and 'knowing' is natural. It springs naturally without any effort if your mind rests and is open. Its not like the knowledge of learning where you have to apply effort to remember facts and so on ... you don't have to work at it ... because when your mind rests, relaxed and open you spontaneously get it. Then a bit like remembering an old song for instance you kind of realise you already knew what you have come to know but somehow you had forgotten about the song but then it comes back to you, or maybe a smell or taste ... for instance.

 

Not sure if this makes sense ... its the best I can do ... and I know nothing about Dzogchen.

[doc benway]

"Truly are"? I don't think that answers the question. Practical examples would be useful.

Actually, I think I did answer the question. The question was more about integration than defining the natural state.

IMO, examples don't really mean anything. It's more about developing the view and developing certainty and confidence in that and bringing into our lives.

 

Unfortunately for the most of us the appearances arise simultaneously with ignorance since when we are presented with a cup of tea do we REALLY see the empty aspect ?.

I am afraid not.

You're correct - we are in samsara but we are fortunate enough to have been exposed to wonderful teachings and teachers and can put that into practice.

 

Now you tell me how many decades one has to work until the appearance of a cup is actually seen for what it truly is , empty but apparent, or until the neighbour who barks at you for whatever reason is seen as an apparition , apparent but empty(appearance which is also understood as empty) and as a result of that you don't engender feelings of hatred or aggression which usually are a sign that a detail in your experience has been isolated and grasped at ?

That I can't answer for you. It could be in an instant or never...

 

 

Wisdom is the basis ?

Really ?

That's like saying.. wrhgljnljrhohsd is lwejfljdskfk

Incomprehensible.

Sorry you don't like that word. I actually like it - it gives that sense of continuity and pervasiveness of knowing that is necessary. At first it certainly requires a lot of effort and mindfulness. Over time (hopefully) it occurs more naturally and effortlessly.

[doc benway]

For me the idea of wisdom and wisdom as the basis is that awareness and 'knowing' is natural. It springs naturally without any effort if your mind rests and is open. Its not like the knowledge of learning where you have to apply effort to remember facts and so on ... you don't have to work at it ... because when your mind rests, relaxed and open you spontaneously get it. Then a bit like remembering an old song for instance you kind of realise you already knew what you have come to know but somehow you had forgotten about the song but then it comes back to you, or maybe a smell or taste ... for instance.

 

Not sure if this makes sense ... its the best I can do ... and I know nothing about Dzogchen.

It makes a lot of sense and you know more about Dzogchen than you realize.

[Anderson]

My teacher said once, "There is no need to search for the aspects. Its already so (empty yet cognizable)". Nirmanakaya aspect, the bliss of form arise. From the Dharmakaya aspect, the bliss of emptiness (empty of self) arise. The manifestation of Samboghakaya allows the enjoyment of both. Actually, its all the one unfolding, but the training mind takes time to sync the seamless unfolding, so it appears that one has to conceptualize the aspects individually. The trained mind, well, thats when grasping (at names to forms) ends. What follows when there is no more clinging and aversion? People sometimes misunderstand that things gradually become empty, after years of practice... its not so. There is no 'becoming empty' -- it is already empty, and because of that basis, forms can be what they are. When the small doubts around this slowly dismantle with practice, clarity takes root, and wisdom flowers. Its also one seamless process, not three distinct stages of revelation.

 

If things are not already empty, order will not be possible.

 

You infer order from an assumption about empty.

If things were truly already empty we would be in a perpetual state of liberation and we would constantly see the display of experience as the true nature of phenomena.

But i am afraid to say that at the level of experience things are not already empty as you seem to suggest and the experience of eating a solid apple doesn't turn into an empty apple because of an assumption about the empty character of that apple.

 

However if we get down to the nitty gritty of experience and truly investigate what is actually happening we will come to the conclusion that we infer solidity , isolation , singularity from mere sensations , tactile, visual, olfactory, auditory...

As soon as something arises , whether be a sound, a visual etc.we immediately are tricked to somehow make it into an object and isolate it from the field of experience and endow it with meaning and assign to it various characteristics , imagined characteristics .

[doc benway]

You infer order from an assumption about empty.

If things were truly already empty we would be in a perpetual state of liberation and we would constantly see the display of experience as the true nature of phenomena.

But i am afraid to say that at the level of experience things are not already empty as you seem to suggest and the experience of eating a solid apple doesn't turn into an empty apple because of an assumption about the empty character of that apple.

 

However if we get down to the nitty gritty of experience and truly investigate what is actually happening we will come to the conclusion that we infer solidity , isolation , singularity from mere sensations , tactile, visual, olfactory, auditory...

As soon as something arises , whether be a sound, a visual etc.we immediately are tricked to somehow make it into an object and isolate it from the field of experience and endow it with meaning and assign to it various characteristics , imagined characteristics .

 

I don't know that it is a trick which leads us to infer solidity and reify our experience... this seems to be the way living things function in their experience of relative reality. I think that as humans, we have somehow become very dissatisfied with our lives and we cause ourselves enormous difficulty through our thought processes. These teachings give us a method to see what is going on behind the curtain.

 

Things are truly empty as CT and all the sages tell us, and there can be a direct and unquestionable experience of that. On the other hand, it is not the usual manner of perception and experience in our realm and when people talk about it and others don't see it, it can be a very frustrating and annoying experience for all involved...

[Anderson]

I don't know that it is a trick which leads us to infer solidity and reify our experience... this seems to be the way living things function in their experience of relative reality. I think that as humans, we have somehow become very dissatisfied with our lives and we cause ourselves enormous difficulty through our thought processes. These teachings give us a method to see what is going on behind the curtain.

 

Things are truly empty as CT and all the sages tell us, and there can be a direct and unquestionable experience of that. On the other hand, it is not the usual manner of perception and experience in our realm and when people talk about it and others don't see it, it can be a very frustrating and annoying experience for all involved...

 

Of course.

Things are truly empty but at the level of experience they do not appear to be empty.

[forestofclarity]

I don't know anything about Dzogchen but I know a little about emptiness. If you look at anything long enough, it will reveal it's empty aspect to you.

 

Unfortunately for the most of us the appearances arise simultaneously with ignorance since when we are presented with a cup of tea do we REALLY see the empty aspect ?.

I am afraid not.

[snip]

[C T]

You infer order from an assumption about empty.

If things were truly already empty we would be in a perpetual state of liberation and we would constantly see the display of experience as the true nature of phenomena.

But i am afraid to say that at the level of experience things are not already empty as you seem to suggest and the experience of eating a solid apple doesn't turn into an empty apple because of an assumption about the empty character of that apple.

 

However if we get down to the nitty gritty of experience and truly investigate what is actually happening we will come to the conclusion that we infer solidity , isolation , singularity from mere sensations , tactile, visual, olfactory, auditory...

As soon as something arises , whether be a sound, a visual etc.we immediately are tricked to somehow make it into an object and isolate it from the field of experience and endow it with meaning and assign to it various characteristics , imagined characteristics .

Its not my intention to infer order. There is no need, because the appearance of things is order. Eating an apple is order. Not eating an apple is also order. In this context, 'order' means things as they are.

 

Without emptiness, eating an apple would not be possible (alas, excreting the remains of it is also not possible if not for emptiness). The apple is solid by virtue of its essence, which is emptiness. If that were not the case, how can an apple even take form? Before the apple, how can an apple seed even absorb moisture & warmth (conditions necessary for it to germinate) if not for the space within the seed? Form is emptiness, emptiness also is form. No need to agree or disagree with this assertion, we simply continue looking deeper and deeper to see if that is indeed the truth. In the process, revelation will come. All these discussions and explanations will not bring anyone closer except when accompanied by a willingness to do the investigation. If not, its simply a wasteful analytical exercise that consumes the mind and yet not bring one any closer to realization.

 

Can anyone ever find 'emptiness' somewhere? One can look, but never find it, thats because things do not turn into emptiness, just as space cannot turn into a more empty space. Nothing can be added to emptiness to make it more empty. When you try to find something (form), form appears. When you find & recognize a solid apple, apple appears. That is the magical aspect of Sambhogakaya. That is order.

 

There is nothing good or bad in the arisings, hence, it seems incorrect to assume that we can be tricked by them. What seems to trick us is the limitations of labels (or, as you put it, characteristics) we assign to things. Its a limitation bound by conditioned dualistic perceptions. Once this collapses, things are still what they are, appearing yet empty, but this time round, without the assignations, duality collapses, and whats left is just the enjoyment. (of course, the term 'enjoyment' here should be properly understood in the context of the 3 kayas, and not in the conventional sense of pleasure-seeking or sense gratification).

Edited June 6, 2014 by C T

[Tibetan_Ice]

"Words of my Perfect Teacher," by Patrul Rinpoche:

 

********************************************************************

 

Drom Tonpa asked Atisha what was the ultimate of all teachings.

"Of all teachings, the ultimate is emptiness of which compassion is

the very essence," replied the Master. "It is like a very powerful

medicine, a panacea which can cure every desease in the world. And

just like that very powerful medicine, realisation of the truth of

emptiness, the nature of reality, is the remedy for all the different

negative emotions."

"Why is it, then," Drom Tonpa went on, "that so many people who claim

to have realized emptiness have no less attachment and hatred?"

"Because their realization is only words," Atisha replied. "Had they

really grasped the true meaning of emptiness, their thoughts, words

and deeds would be as soft as stepping on cotton wool or as tsampa

soup laced with butter. The Master Aryadeva said that even to wonder

wether all beings were empty by nature would make samsara fall apart.

True realization of emptiness, therefor, is the ultimate panacea

which includes all the elements of the path."

"How can every element of the path be included within the realization

of emptiness?" Drom Tonpa asked.

"All the elements of the path are contained in the six transcendent

perfections. Now, if you truely realize emptiness, you become free

from attachment. As you feel no craving, grasping or desire for

anything within or without, you always have transcendent generosity.

Being free from grasping and attachment, you are never defiled by

negative actions, so you always have transcendent discipline. Without

any concepts of "I" and 'mine' you have no anger, so you always have

transcendent patience. Your mind made truely joyful by the

realization of emptiness, you always have transcendent diligence.

Being free from distraction, which comes from grasping at things

as solid, you always have transcendent concentration. As you do not

conceptualize anything whatsoever, in terms of subject, object and

action, you always have transcendent wisdom."

"Do those who have realized the truth become Buddhas simply through

the view of emptiness and meditation?" Drom Tonpa asked.

"Of all that we perceive as forms and sounds there is nothing that

does not arise from the mind. To realize that the mind is awareness

indivisable from emptiness is the view. Keeping this realization in

mind at all times, and never being distacted from it, is meditation.

To practice the two accumulations as magical illusion from within

that state is action. If you make a living experience of this

practice, it will continue in your dreams. If it comes in the dream

state, it will come at the moment of death. And if it comes at the

moment of death, it will come in the intermediate state. If

it is present in the intermediate state you may be certain of

attaining suppreme accomplishment."

 

The eighty-four thousand doors to the Dharma that the Conqueror

taught are thus all skillful means to cause the bodhichitta--

emptiness of which compassion is the very essence--to arise in us.

Without bodhichitta, teachings on the view and meditation, however

profound they may seem, will be no use at all for attaining

Buddhahood (...)

[Tibetan_Ice]

Here it is in my own words...

Wisdom is having the experience of reality that comes from activating your heart. After having had the experience, you have wisdom. Wisdom is not intellectual knowledge. Wisdom is experiencing something that stupefies and shocks the intellect, it is unbelievable and the intellect tries to push the experience away. The intellect can't handle being able to see through objects at great distances, it can't handle seeing that there are thousands and thousands of beings superimposed over top and inside this one reality. It cannot handle it. It cannot understand how this can be so. It does not want to admit that it was deceived and really has no power. It does not like to realize that it is a very tiny speck of insignificant dust in the wake of such miraculous majesty and awe.

 

It is not space. Space is space. Without the clarity that comes from the heart, space is just a wide open expanse of nothing much. Without the heart, bodhicitta, selfless love, whatever you want to call it, space is just ordinary space. But if you activate your heart, space is filled to the brim with all sorts of forms.

 

Thogal is a method of cultivating the Kati channel to your heart, where the center of the luminous pool of clarity/awareness//love resides. When you succeed in activating this channel, this water-like substance will come out of your eyes, like a horizontal gush of clear luminescent water in slow motion. It is pure bliss, great bliss, like looking at the face of god. But it is your own face. To tell you the truth, when it first appeared to me, I started to hate it. I hated the fact that it had remained hidden for so long, that I had missed its love, its so great a love for so long. My mind tried many combinations to get me to push it away, to dismiss it, to cast it aside. I was so ashamed for the longest time, because I knew deep inside that I had found a great treasure and all my mind wanted to do was to piss on it.

 

The heart contains a very very bright light. It is so powerful that when you activate it, it is like X-rays. It penetrates everywhere. It can see right through objects and into objects. It can see great distances. It can view faster than the speed of light. It can see the cracks between the disjoint manifestations of perceptions. It knows that the mind is so slow that it does not see the white light in between the perceptions of ordinary reality.

 

There is no magic in Dzogchen as compared to the other teachings. As a matter of fact, that one idea from Patrul Rinpche's quote of maintaining the view activated by bodhicitta is probably the most essential point. Bodhicitta will make you realize emptiness. The heart is the key.

 

[Anderson]

I don't know anything about Dzogchen but I know a little about emptiness. If you look at anything long enough, it will reveal it's empty aspect to you.

 

I dont agree.

Looking at something long enough will only make your eyes tired.

Visual conciousness is only an aid in getting knowledge about phenomena.

If you look at something that means you are maintaining a conceptual focus and that necessarily means that an object has been apprehended.

Whereas knowledge about arisings is before isolating something by looking at it.

At least that is what the dzogchen teachings tell us that we don't engage with constructs the mind might happen to produce.

We rest in the moment before entering analysis which is not the case when we look at something in particular to see their supposed essence.

[Anderson]

Here it is in my own words...

Wisdom is having the experience of reality that comes from activating your heart. After having had the experience, you have wisdom. Wisdom is not intellectual knowledge. Wisdom is experiencing something that stupefies and shocks the intellect, it is unbelievable and the intellect tries to push the experience away. The intellect can't handle being able to see through objects at great distances, it can't handle seeing that there are thousands and thousands of beings superimposed over top and inside this one reality. It cannot handle it. It cannot understand how this can be so. It does not want to admit that it was deceived and really has no power. It does not like to realize that it is a very tiny speck of insignificant dust in the wake of such miraculous majesty and awe.

 

It is not space. Space is space. Without the clarity that comes from the heart, space is just a wide open expanse of nothing much. Without the heart, bodhicitta, selfless love, whatever you want to call it, space is just ordinary space. But if you activate your heart, space is filled to the brim with all sorts of forms.

 

Thogal is a method of cultivating the Kati channel to your heart, where the center of the luminous pool of clarity/awareness//love resides. When you succeed in activating this channel, this water-like substance will come out of your eyes, like a horizontal gush of clear luminescent water in slow motion. It is pure bliss, great bliss, like looking at the face of god. But it is your own face. To tell you the truth, when it first appeared to me, I started to hate it. I hated the fact that it had remained hidden for so long, that I had missed its love, its so great a love for so long. My mind tried many combinations to get me to push it away, to dismiss it, to cast it aside. I was so ashamed for the longest time, because I knew deep inside that I had found a great treasure and all my mind wanted to do was to piss on it.

 

The heart contains a very very bright light. It is so powerful that when you activate it, it is like X-rays. It penetrates everywhere. It can see right through objects and into objects. It can see great distances. It can view faster than the speed of light. It can see the cracks between the disjoint manifestations of perceptions. It knows that the mind is so slow that it does not see the white light in between the perceptions of ordinary reality.

 

There is no magic in Dzogchen as compared to the other teachings. As a matter of fact, that one idea from Patrul Rinpche's quote of maintaining the view activated by bodhicitta is probably the most essential point. Bodhicitta will make you realize emptiness. The heart is the key.

 

 

There probably is a distinct possibility that some people might have experiences where they see trough phenomena but that i don't think is the actual realization of emptiness , since that would imply that emptiness is realized at all sensory and mental levels alike and not just visual conciousness.In which case you would gain the ability to fly in the sky, pass through walls etc.

[doc benway]

I think it's important that we not be too bound to our ideas of what emptiness is, what wisdom is, what the nature of mind is, how it all works, and so forth. Anything we can conceptualize is not it. No matter how right it feels, the mind cannot capture it. I think we can get tied up and distracted by our ideas about what we are looking for and the looking itself and then the process can really takes decades, as Anderson mentioned, or countless lives.

 

I think that Apech's comments are spot on. We need to be very cautious and skeptical about the experiences and interpretations we share with each other because few of us are accomplished masters and even if we have gained some understanding or experienced these things directly, communicating those things is difficult. Certainly we can get a sense of things from the writings and teachings of the great masters.

 

For me, the Beacon of Certainty by Mipham Rinpoche (as interpreted in Journey to Certainty by Anyen Rinpoche) really struck a cord because it bridges the intellectual work and the non-conceptual and puts both in perspective. We can read the Dzogchen writings over and over and we become inured to the beautiful language and can connect at some level due to our meditative experiences but we can easily fool ourselves into thinking we are farther along the path than we really are. All (?most) of us are still at a level where the thinking mind is a major influence on our lives and so the work of the thinking mind remains important for us at this point.

 

So when we are not effortlessly resting in the wisdom of the nature of mind in every waking and sleeping moment, we can engage the thinking mind to help us along the path, rather than hinder us. And I think this is where all of our other practices are so important, whether it be study of the masters, mantra, guru yoga, bodhicitta, taking refuge, mindfulness, etc...

 

Not sure if this is even relevant but it just kind of came up. I genuinely wish all of you (and me) good fortune and blessing in our efforts to come closer to truly realizing the nature of mind and integrating it into our lives in order to be of benefit to all sentient beings!

 

E MA HO!

[forestofclarity]

Which points to the emptiness of the eyes. For me, wherever there is change there is emptiness.

 

Personally, I don't see emptiness is as rare or complicated as it is spoken of in Tibetan circles online.

 

But I don't mean to interrupt a Dzogchen thread.

 

Looking at something long enough will only make your eyes tired.

[Anderson]

Wisdom is the ability to enjoy the inescapable and ever present display of your own nature.