What is wisdom in Dzogchen ?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Wisdom...

 

http://www.american-buddha.com/vajra.heart.12.htm#THE%20VAJRA%20HEART%20TANTRA,%20Part%2012

[rex]

Don't worry you haven't touched any nerves.

Good : )

Shame this thread is deteriorating.

Yup

Sorry if it's anything I've added.

[Anderson]

Just a few words about quotes.

 

Please don't use quotes like they are an extension of your own view.

If that is your view you must be able to say a few words yourself about that and how that translates into practical experience.

Of course , in a proper debate you have to use quotes but also provide your intellectual understanding about them.

If you take the attitude "But the bible says ....." or "My teachers says...." the only thing you will manage is to develop a dogmatic attitude devoid of any practical or experiential understanding.

 

As for what wisdom means i wont say much else since whatever i say is what i think it means and not what it actually means at an experiential level.For a number of years i lived in dzogchen cuckoo land and when i started making efforts in bringing the view down to the level of day to day experience i have realized that there is a total abyss between what i think the view is and what my actual experience of that view is.And in the light of this clarification none of what i've said in the past on these forums should matter or be given much weight since they were all said in a climate of intellectual arrogance devoid of any experiential knowledge.

[Apech]

Shame on you!

 

Have you and Alwaysoff so little faith and understanding in Bhuddism that you must prop it up by denigrating other traditions?

 

But then isn't that the scholarly way? No, wait... Most scholars have more class than that.

 

 

For myself if another tradition vedic, Christian or any other helps someone find liberation then I support it and will not criticise it ... although I might point out how it is different from dharma. You only have to look at how HHDL responds to questions on other religions to see that this is the right approach for a Buddhist. I always take care when in the holy places of other religions to propitiate the local deities and sometimes to ask for their help on my path. I know some Buddhist may find this wrong or odd but this is my understanding of how a vajrayana practitioner should behave.

[C T]

For myself if another tradition vedic, Christian or any other helps someone find liberation then I support it and will not criticise it ... although I might point out how it is different from dharma. You only have to look at how HHDL responds to questions on other religions to see that this is the right approach for a Buddhist. I always take care when in the holy places of other religions to propitiate the local deities and sometimes to ask for their help on my path. I know some Buddhist may find this wrong or odd but this is my understanding of how a vajrayana practitioner should behave.

A benevolent Vajrayana practitioner is comfortable wherever he or she finds himself.

 

As Master Hsuan Hua says, "Accord with conditions, but do not change. Do not change, but accord with conditions."

 

I read the above to mean that we can engage generously and wholeheartedly with everything and everyone without compromising our inner awareness of Dharma. If we find difficulty integrating, it just means we have work to do yet, and if we still have work to do, then we focus more on that rather than the more futile, external and distractive pursuits.

 

I think comparing traditions, or questioning the views of others with incorrect motives while we are not yet full-fledged buddhas with perfect omniscient mind is one of these futile pursuits. hehe... yet, i still do it, but its lessening somewhat.

 

dang.

[Simple_Jack]

Neo Advaitans are somehow lesser in their realization than you? That makes you an elitist does it not?

 

It's a different type of elitism, than say, having the privelege of being "God's chosen people" by virtue of religious affiliation. It's my life-line in a world where my gretaness goes unnoticed as I am forced to mingle amongst the hordes of lesser people, enduring the taint of mediocrity, yet silently I revel in the knoweldge that my realization sets me apart from the insignificant masses, reassuring my unique stature while putting on airs of camaraderie, gleefully acknowledging they pale in comparison.

 

Knowing that, and yet persisting with such an act sounds rather foolish, lacks wisdom.

 

Shadow boxing, my friend. Waste of time & energy, dont you think?

 

It's how I get off during the work week. You want to join in? We could get off together.

 

Shame on you!

 

Have you and Alwaysoff so little faith and understanding in Bhuddism that you must prop it up by denigrating other traditions?

 

But then isn't that the scholarly way? No, wait... Most scholars have more class than that.

 

Can neo-Advaita rightfully be considered a 'tradition'? Do you think neo-Advaita is above the Upanishads?

[Simple_Jack]

Somewhat ironic to cut and paste a long quote then bump your own post when it doesn't meet the question in the OP. If you want to create a library of quotes why not put in your ppf.

 

I'm more inclined to create a PPF in order to immortalize the greatness of my acheivements, and as an ultimate gesture of my narcissism, I will use it as a storage for dick pics in various locales.

[C T]

It's how I get off during the work week. You want to join in? We could get off together.

Maaan, you're funny.

 

Can't deny you your little fetishes, i guess.

[C T]

Just a few words about quotes.

 

Please don't use quotes like they are an extension of your own view.

If that is your view you must be able to say a few words yourself about that and how that translates into practical experience.

Of course , in a proper debate you have to use quotes but also provide your intellectual understanding about them.

If you take the attitude "But the bible says ....." or "My teachers says...." the only thing you will manage is to develop a dogmatic attitude devoid of any practical or experiential understanding.

 

As for what wisdom means i wont say much else since whatever i say is what i think it means and not what it actually means at an experiential level.For a number of years i lived in dzogchen cuckoo land and when i started making efforts in bringing the view down to the level of day to day experience i have realized that there is a total abyss between what i think the view is and what my actual experience of that view is.And in the light of this clarification none of what i've said in the past on these forums should matter or be given much weight since they were all said in a climate of intellectual arrogance devoid of any experiential knowledge.

Of course it matters. It matters to you since it moulds and deepens your awareness. No reason to sell yourself short.

 

There is a dose of honesty in your words. Honesty is the greatest precursor to truthful insight. Truthful insight puts one in touch with reality. Being in touch with reality, the barrier that forces delusion will disintegrate, like the light of the sun dispelling the darkness.

[doc benway]

Sorry if it's anything I've added.

Nope, not for me anyway

[doc benway]

As for what wisdom means i wont say much else since whatever i say is what i think it means and not what it actually means at an experiential level.For a number of years i lived in dzogchen cuckoo land and when i started making efforts in bringing the view down to the level of day to day experience i have realized that there is a total abyss between what i think the view is and what my actual experience of that view is.And in the light of this clarification none of what i've said in the past on these forums should matter or be given much weight since they were all said in a climate of intellectual arrogance devoid of any experiential knowledge.

 

That was pretty powerful stuff!

FWIW, I feel humbled by your comments.

Our ability to look critically and unflinchingly at ourselves is the surest path to liberation.

 

_/\_

 

 

For myself if another tradition vedic, Christian or any other helps someone find liberation then I support it and will not criticise it ... although I might point out how it is different from dharma. You only have to look at how HHDL responds to questions on other religions to see that this is the right approach for a Buddhist.

 

Such an important message here and so fundamental to Buddhism, at least in my view.

 

I always take care when in the holy places of other religions to propitiate the local deities and sometimes to ask for their help on my path. I know some Buddhist may find this wrong or odd but this is my understanding of how a vajrayana practitioner should behave.

 

I think that's a wonderful approach. I have been doing the same with the natural environment and sentient beings - birds, trees, mountains, rivers, ocean, etc... It is a powerful practice.

[Simple_Jack]

Cut/paste and various arguments posted here have not answered the OP's questions. Most of these arguments are untenable.

 

If you've attempted to evaluate the validity of buddhadharma through Hegel, this possibly indicates you've never actually taken much stock in wanting to understand it accurately. Which brings us back around to the question, of whether you can accept the basic premise of freedom from the afflictions (which drives the process of reincarnation, but let's not take that into account here), as the commonly shared motivation between Dharmic religions.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Just a few words about quotes.

 

Please don't use quotes like they are an extension of your own view.

If that is your view you must be able to say a few words yourself about that and how that translates into practical experience.

Of course , in a proper debate you have to use quotes but also provide your intellectual understanding about them.

If you take the attitude "But the bible says ....." or "My teachers says...." the only thing you will manage is to develop a dogmatic attitude devoid of any practical or experiential understanding.

 

My quotes were posted in order to answer your question here http://thetaobums.com/topic/35103-what-is-wisdom-in-dzogchen/?p=552264:

 

What the hell is non-arisen?

[Simple_Jack]

Cut/paste and various arguments posted here have not answered the OP's questions. Most of these arguments are untenable.

If you've attempted to evaluate the validity of buddhadharma through Hegel, this possibly indicates you've never actually taken much stock in wanting to understand it accurately. Which brings us back around to the question, of whether you can accept the basic premise of freedom from the afflictions (which drives the process of reincarnation, but let's not take that into account here), as the commonly shared motivation between Dharmic religions.

 

How non-arising is applied in Sutra Mahamudra vipashyana: http://www.chagchen.com/.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

I think the objection to terms like 'non-arisen' is not based in the idea that they are somehow inaccurate but that they are not particularly user friendly in day to day English.

To explain how you see how things are. Without some effort to do so you are just developing a kind of exclusive club with its own special language which only the members understand. Not sure the overall aim of Buddhism is to become this. I might be wrong of course.

I didn't see it so much as getting rid of phrases, but perhaps improving them for clarity.

 

If anyone responding in this thread invested even just a quarter of the amount of interest towards understanding buddhadharma, as you did Gnosticism, Hermeticism, neo-Platonism, etc., then Buddhist concepts such as non-arising won't remain a mystery for long.

[Apech]

If anyone responding in this thread invested even just a quarter of the amount of interest towards understanding buddhadharma, as you did Gnosticism, Hermeticism, neo-Platonism, etc., then Buddhist concepts such as non-arising won't remain a mystery for long.

 

 

I am a practicing Buddhist in the Karma Kagyu tradition my teacher is Lama Jampa Thaye who runs the Dechen dharma centres and his teacher is Karma Thinley Rinpoche and also Sakhya Trizin (as he holds both the Kagyu and Sakhya lineages) as well as the Karmapa. Although it is difficult for me to attend at the moment because of where I live in previous years there were annual Shedra where one studied key texts of madhyamaka philosophy such as those by Mikyo Dorje for instance. I do daily practice and study including the ngondro. You are right though that I am also interested in Hermeticism and Taoism of course and am pleased to say that I find time to study these systems also. I find it very enriching to keep an open mind to influences from different sources.

[GrandmasterP]

I said it back on page 1 ' Dzogchen wisdom or wisdom in Dzogchen' can be whatever someone who decides that their take on Dzogchen is the bees knees decides it to be.

This thread is in danger of succumbing to DharmaWheel- itis.

Over on DW whenever someone really wants to labour a point they bash everyone else over the head with endless polysyllabic cut and paste texts.

 

IMO and it is only an opinion - the 3 vital points of Dzogchen = View, Meditation, and Action seem to be pretty well covered in the Tsiksum Nedek of Patrul Rinpoche. That text, along with extensive commentary, is translated into English by John M Reynolds as The Golden Letters.

USA here....

http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Letters-Statements-Dzogchen-Master/dp/1559390506

 

UK here...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1559390506/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1402688496&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Golden+Letters&condition=new

Edited June 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[C T]

 

Over on DW whenever someone really wants to labour a point they bash everyone else over the head with endless polysyllabic cut and paste texts.

 

 

Sometimes you wish they would just speak from the heart, and imitate the real gurus, those who keep to the precept of considering others as more important than themselves.

 

Some teachers i have met shined with humility and kindness, and their inner light blazing so brightly and warm that people just feel drawn to them without actually knowing why. The epitome of such a presence (for me) is Lama Zopa Rinpoche. He works tirelessly, even when he was at one time quite ill, to share the Dharma in the most compassionate way possible, not only to fellow humans, but to every other sentient being, be it animals or insects, blessing them all as he goes.

 

I just happened to be thinking with deep gratefulness about Lama Zopa, just before i read your post.

 

Happiness and many blessings to all on this auspicious day!!

[Yascra]

This thread is in danger of succumbing to DharmaWheel- itis.

 

Hm, to me that would actually mean that

1. Some particular monk would suddenly stop participating because on some occasion I revealed I'm female, and he can't bear writing or talking on one level with a female being;

2. Some Ex-mod would show up and misinterpret every single word I write;

3. Some particular mod will close the thread for "obvious reasons", namely the fact that he has seen my nickname under participants ^^

 

Did I ever mention I like TTB?

 

Btw, I don't feel there are more than half a dozen or so persons on TTBs who argue on DW-level. The problem might be more like number and length of posts

[C T]

Speaking of Lama Zopa...

 

 

[Simple_Jack]

I said it back on page 1 ' Dzogchen wisdom or wisdom in Dzogchen' can be whatever someone who decides that their take on Dzogchen is the bees knees decides it to be.

This thread is in danger of succumbing to DharmaWheel- itis.

Over on DW whenever someone really wants to labour a point they bash everyone else over the head with endless polysyllabic cut and paste texts.

Btw, I don't feel there are more than half a dozen or so persons on TTBs who argue on DW-level. The problem might be more like number and length of posts

 

C'mon, don't overexaggerate, it's not like the finer points of Svatantrika vs. Prasangika are being delineated; we're talking "Heart Sutra", basic Mahayana stuff, here. It's only ever a couple threads, and the same group of posters, who go back and forth endlessly on DW. It's not an overarching issue like you make it seem. You guys are selectively targeting DW as if that never happens on the TTB's; the occurrences aren't any more or less infrequent than on the TTB's.

 

Sometimes you wish they would just speak from the heart, and imitate the real gurus, those who keep to the precept of considering others as more important than themselves.

 

"Speaking from the heart" doesn't necessarily mean overly vague and emotionally appealing catch-phrases, technical terms and quotations have their place and time (depending on the audience), but admittedly for the vast majority of lay practitioners, the use of simplified language, is needed in order for the teachings to be 'internalized'.

[doc benway]

If anyone responding in this thread invested even just a quarter of the amount of interest towards understanding buddhadharma, as you did Gnosticism, Hermeticism, neo-Platonism, etc., then Buddhist concepts such as non-arising won't remain a mystery for long.

 

 

Sometimes you wish they would just speak from the heart, and imitate the real gurus, those who keep to the precept of considering others as more important than themselves.

 

Some teachers i have met shined with humility and kindness, and their inner light blazing so brightly and warm that people just feel drawn to them without actually knowing why. The epitome of such a presence (for me) is Lama Zopa Rinpoche. He works tirelessly, even when he was at one time quite ill, to share the Dharma in the most compassionate way possible, not only to fellow humans, but to every other sentient being, be it animals or insects, blessing them all as he goes.

 

I just happened to be thinking with deep gratefulness about Lama Zopa, just before i read your post.

 

Happiness and many blessings to all on this auspicious day!!

Wonderful video clip CT!

 

I don't know how well I understand the Buddhadharma but what struck me watching the video is how my heart has opened to such richness and beauty and depth of feeling that surrounds me in life, in the simple things - watching monks laugh and share a loving moment, my relationships, a simple meal, a few hours with my children, a memory of the scent of incense; even in the painful times, the things that used to annoy me terribly, aggressive drivers, being in the presence of people who are suffering or angry with me, sitting for a few hours today at the Department of Motor Vehicles waiting to renew my driver's license... There is something that the Buddhist path, the Mahayana in particular, has opened in me that is priceless and I am so grateful for this that it can bring me to tears. So I will certainly continue to study and at the same time try to put these priceless teachings into practice in how I treat others in my life - even on an anonymous internet forum.

 

I just felt compelled to share that with anyone who can relate. This is something that I think is just as worthy of sharing and discussing as the intricacies and ambiguities of philosophical concepts and language.

[Yascra]

 

C'mon, don't overexaggerate, it's not like the finer points of Svatantrika vs. Prasangika are being delineated; we're talking "Heart Sutra", basic Mahayana stuff, here.

hm, if you should with this try to express that the former is higher stuff than the latter, in my opinion you're just victim to a serious misunderstanding what buddhism is about.

But of course, as I'm not your teacher, that's really not my problem

Edited June 14, 2014 by Yascra

[C T]

Wonderful video clip CT!

 

I don't know how well I understand the Buddhadharma but what struck me watching the video is how my heart has opened to such richness and beauty and depth of feeling that surrounds me in life, in the simple things - watching monks laugh and share a loving moment, my relationships, a simple meal, a few hours with my children, a memory of the scent of incense; even in the painful times, the things that used to annoy me terribly, aggressive drivers, being in the presence of people who are suffering or angry with me, sitting for a few hours today at the Department of Motor Vehicles waiting to renew my driver's license... There is something that the Buddhist path, the Mahayana in particular, has opened in me that is priceless and I am so grateful for this that it can bring me to tears. So I will certainly continue to study and at the same time try to put these priceless teachings into practice in how I treat others in my life - even on an anonymous internet forum.

 

I just felt compelled to share that with anyone who can relate. This is something that I think is just as worthy of sharing and discussing as the intricacies and ambiguities of philosophical concepts and language.

 

 

 

_/\_

[C T]

"Speaking from the heart" doesn't necessarily mean overly vague and emotionally appealing catch-phrases, technical terms and quotations have their place and time (depending on the audience), but admittedly for the vast majority of lay practitioners, the use of simplified language, is needed in order for the teachings to be 'internalized'.

You are right about finding the right audience for the technical stuff... usually its an audience of one... myself, during contemplative study time.

 

Our participation here is primarily to share experiences and understanding, to get a glimpse of how the Dharma is practiced by others, to be inspired by their progress, and to lend some kind words of encouragement should someone encounter some sort of small setback. The means to do this is not confined to using simplified language, but more importantly, authentic language -- this is what i mean by 'speaking from the heart'. Oftentimes, this requires nothing more than a genuine desire to wish others all the happiness and joy they deserve. Don't you think so? Isn't this what Buddhadharma is in essence?