What is wisdom in Dzogchen ?

[goldisheavy]

@Goldisheavy - could you define precisely what you mean by mind and what you mean by mindset ... I think I get the points you made above but I want to be sure.

 

The mind is a capacity, and not a thing or a substance or some unique phenomenal experience. What kind of capacity? It's a capacity to know, to experience and to will. I split it into those 3 aspects to make it easier for people to relate, however, strictly speaking, the capacity is not something composed of parts. So willing is a necessary aspect of knowing, for example, and vice versa, knowing is a necessary aspect of willing. And the same holds for any relationships between knowing, experiencing and willing. So once we split the capacity up for the sake of discussion into 3 aspects, then viewing any pair out of those 3 as an interdependent pair is productive for contemplation.

 

The mindset is different from the mind in that a mindset is a specific state the mind can be in. This is similar, but not literally identical to how ice, liquid and steam are all possible states of water, for example. However, the mind is not an observable the way water is, and yet many aspects of the mindset are observable with varying degrees of difficulty. The more insight one has, the more one can understand the intrincate way in which one's mind is engaging in some mindset.

 

Another way to look at the mindset is that a mindset is like a worldview, or just a point of view. There are an infinity of possible worldviews some of which are mutually incompatible, and an infinity of points of views in the same way. These are all different ways of speaking about the same thing. A point of view is identical to an individual being. So because there are latently infinite points of view, there are latently infinite sentient beings.

 

So the main distinction here is that the mind is not something optional, or something you have a choice about. At your core, behind your human/conventional commitments, you are a mind. We can make this distinction because just as you commit to being a human being, you can commit to being any sort of being, even some fantastical being we can't currently imagine. When I say "core" I speak abstractly. I don't mean to imply an actual physical center or some object you could examine in your field of awareness. By "core" I mean the state of your will when it's become maximally aware of optionality of commitments, and has chosen to relax. When this happens, all phenomena become ambiguous. And if you relax enduringly and ongoingly, this in itself can be understood as a special, extraordinary commitment.

 

So mind is much more abstract than a mindset. One could say that the mind is the ultimate abstraction. The mind as a capacity is primordial and it has no conditions for beginning, enduring, or ending. Recognizing the primordial nature of the mind is the essential first step on an alchemical transmutation of ordinary experience into something extraordinary.

Edited July 9, 2014 by goldisheavy

[Apech]

The mind is a capacity, and not a thing or a substance or some unique phenomenal experience. What kind of capacity? It's a capacity to know, to experience and to will. I split it into those 3 aspects to make it easier for people to relate, however, strictly speaking, the capacity is not something composed of parts. So willing is a necessary aspect of knowing, for example, and vice versa, knowing is a necessary aspect of willing. And the same holds for any relationships between knowing, experiencing and willing. So once we split the capacity up for the sake of discussion into 3 aspects, then viewing any pair out of those 3 as an interdependent pair is productive for contemplation.

 

The mindset is different from the mind in that a mindset is a specific state the mind can be in. This is similar, but not literally identical to how ice, liquid and steam are all possible states of water, for example. However, the mind is not an observable the way water is, and yet many aspects of the mindset are observable with varying degrees of difficulty. The more insight one has, the more one can understand the intrincate way in which one's mind is engaging in some mindset.

 

Another way to look at the mindset is that a mindset is like a worldview, or just a point of view. There are an infinity of possible worldviews some of which are mutually incompatible, and an infinity of points of views in the same way. These are all different ways of speaking about the same thing. A point of view is identical to an individual being. So because there are latently infinite points of view, there are latently infinite sentient beings.

 

So the main distinction here is that the mind is not something optional, or something you have a choice about. At your core, behind your human/conventional commitments, you are a mind. We can make this distinction because just as you commit to being a human being, you can commit to being any sort of being, even some fantastical being we can't currently imagine. When I say "core" I speak abstractly. I don't mean to imply an actual physical center or some object you could examine in your field of awareness. By "core" I mean the state of your will when it's become maximally aware of optionality of commitments, and has chosen to relax. When this happens, all phenomena become ambiguous. And if you relax enduringly and ongoingly, this in itself can be understood as a special, extraordinary commitment.

 

So mind is much more abstract than a mindset. One could say that the mind is the ultimate abstraction. The mind as a capacity is primordial and it has no conditions for beginning, enduring, or ending. Recognizing the primordial nature of the mind is the essential first step on an alchemical transmutation of ordinary experience into something extraordinary.

 

I was with you till the last paragraph ... I don't see how mind can be abstract ... I can see how it can be abstracted ... but that would be a mindset surely. Maybe I'm splitting hairs.

 

Thanks for explaining.

[goldisheavy]

Apech, we could also say that a mindset is a way in which a mind can entrench or stabilize itself with regard to appearances. This should not be understood to always be bad. There are some very powerful and very useful manners of entrenching one's own mind. ("One's own mind" is just a manner of speaking.)

 

We could say that alchemy is all about first understanding the mind, and then deliberately and cognizantly entrenching it in a way that produces a pure realm as a seemingly outward appearance, and wisdom, as a seemingly inner appearance.

 

There are literally countless ways of speaking about this. Each way of speaking about the same thing illumines it from a slightly different direction. In the end, if you want to be a Lord, you will need to master all possible descriptions, and then transcend them all but without the false imagination that you've left the descriptions behind, as it were.

[goldisheavy]

I was with you till the last paragraph ... I don't see how mind can be abstract ... I can see how it can be abstracted ... but that would be a mindset surely. Maybe I'm splitting hairs.

 

Thanks for explaining.

 

When I say the mind is the ultimate abstraction, I mean that it is the least specific and most mysterious subject one can contemplate.

[Tibetan_Ice]

http://transmissiononline.org/issue/the-awareness-of-awareness/article/dzogchen-and-mahamudra-retreat-2011

 

The Awareness of Awareness, Cover Stories, Essays

 

Dzogchen and Mahamudra retreat 2011

By Rudolph Bauer, Phd Mon, Aug 22, 2011

1.Dudjom Rinpoche the great master of Dzogchen would often say : hundreds or thousands of explanations are given, there is only one thing to be understood, know the one thing that liberates everything----Awareness itself , your true nature.

2.Namkai Norbu another contemporary master of Dzogchen says this: Dzogchen does not belong to any religion, it is very nature of human awareness itself. No one owns Dzogchen and its naturalistic and experiential understanding is expressed in many traditions. Our own root teacher was Swami Muktanada and he was Hindu Shavite Meditation Master. He taught that meditation was becoming aware of awareness itself. Western phenomenology is also presents methodology for becoming aware of awareness.

3.The very essence of Dzogchen is to be aware of awareness itself.. Beyond words and letters ,there is a transmission that does not belong to any tradition which is very nature of human of awareness and this is the Buddha. This statement made in the 6th century by Bodhidharma indicates that although human beings easily and constantly transmit their minds from one to another, from family to children, from person to person, from group to group from culture to culture, human beings are also able to transmit the very nature of their own awareness to each other .this awareness is this field of light and of energy. This field is a field of gnosis direct lumenous knowningess and is the great compassionlove itself.

4.In the praxis of Dzoghcen if you to be able to suspend your mind even briefly, this suspension frees your awareness to become aware of own self, and in this action awareness becomes aware of its own nature. This nature this syunyata is spaceousness, or openness ,the great expanse and this nature is also light or radiance or lumenousity, and this nature is energy, or qi or shakti, and this nature is also oneness and pervasive. This nature is the great affection or great compassion, which is infinite in its horizons vaste and multidimensional.

5. In meditation and through meditation you learn through practice and happen stance to suspend your mind. The mind which is thinking, is feelings, is memory, and is sensation and is fantasy. And within the freedom of the suspension, this epoche , your awareness focuses within its own self and reveals itself and shows itself and unconceals itself to you as your own self. You begin to experience awareness itself.as .the base of your experience. The base of your experience is no longer mind alone but this field as non conceptual awareness, this field vast and infinite in its horizon. This base goes beyond the boundaries of your body.

The natural mystic drama of your lifev begins unfolding with immediacy. Your life and the mystic drama become one.

6.Dzogchen understanding and practice begins within awareness in order to dissolve suffering ,the suffering of never ending lost , the suffering of an indeterminate and unpredictable existence, the suffering of the abyss of emptiness and voidness, the suffering of non connectedness, separateness and solipsism , the anxiety of non existence ,ever present death. The phenomena of disappearance and appearance is the very essence of the field of awareness ,.ever present, timelessly present, coming and going, appearing and disappearingwithin timeless awareness.

7. The praxis is simple, suspend your mind, enter into awareness of awareness, holding it, entering it, becoming it, aham ah I am becoming what I am. As you become aware of awareness the qualities of awareness manifest themselves in you, in your experience. The qualities are spaceousness or openeness, lumenousity or light, energy, and the oneness and compassion as pure love. As you establish your self in this field as AND THE FIELD ESTABLISHES ITSELF IN YOU, YOU integrate your mind and your body into this field of awareness. And so you begin to live within awareness itself. You think in awareness, you feel within awareness field, you have memory, sensation and dreamsall within awareness .What is most amazing and the wonder of wonders is that is you begin experience not only within your own self this field but you begin to experience this field of awareness within everyone and in time everythinganimate as well as inanimate. What is in you is in the other. You begin to experience non duality, or oneness within the duality of the world..

You integrate everything within awareness field and this awareness metabolizes experience and frees you from the compulsivity of endless fixation . In time the light of awareness becomes more and more visible in your self and within in this world. all of which is the beingness of Being itselfthe translucidity of Being of all the beings.

8.More over your own awareness is multidimensional and the world you live in is of the same dimensions. These dimensions in Dzogchen are called Kayas. These dimensions become slowly but surely apparent and experiential. So within the dimension of ordinary appearance (nirmanakaya) you experience the energy and light within yourself and others. This light and this spaceousness and this energy is the source of non duality or oneness within appearances, this world of fles, the world of me and you.

9.In time You begin also to experience the dimension of apparitionalness(sambhogakaya). This happens especially in dreams andin visions. In Visions, you experience the archetypical dimension of your own being which is Being itself. Primordial energies, swirling vortexts of energy and light, archetypical manifestations all of these manfifestations are cosmological qualities of primordial awareness. Primordial Beingness expressed and symbolized as personafied deities. dakinis, devas..You experience them not outside of you but as the qualities your own awareness , your own beingness of Being itself.

10.And in time you experience the completely ineffable non conceptual , beyond all language and expression, the silent dimension of pure potential , potential space, the great void, the great openness out of which everything arises and dissolves, including your own self, your own awareness. This dharmakaya dimension is Creativity itself the great mother.

11.You begin to experience within your self as your self this pervasive immanence that is the source and pervades all of existence. The world becomes more inside to inside and less externalized.less objectified, less reified. In this bliss, this great bliss, thisbliss over comes all suffering.

Om ah hung, bodichitta, maha suka, jnana datu ah.

 

11.This unfolding of the field sometimes happens like this. More often then not a person lives in their mind. The mind is a kind of boxa jewel box. And a person can live in the functions of their mind, thinking, feelings, sensation ,memory and fantasy. Then one day you the person become aware of their mind, and the person experiences mindfulness.Soon the person discovers a space that is not their mind, and from that space the person can view their own mind. That is an amazing moment. This is the beginning of liberation. This may continue for some time.

12. Then one day that person becomes aware of that space itself . One day the person becomes aware of that intermediate space, that space in between, that transitional or liminal space . In that space of awareness , the person become aware of there innermost space and clearly realizes that awareness is not their mind. You and I are not our mind, and we are this space of awareness ,this field of awareness.

Wonderfully The base begins to shift from our mind to our awareness. Moreover, to our surprise , to our unending surprise this awareness is field vast and its horizons are infinite and unbound. Moreover you and I begin to learn to extend this awareness field to each other within this field of immanance. In and through this mutual transmission we become stronger in the field and in the light of the field. Two awareness are truly better then one.

13. We begins to live in the energy and light of the field , We begin to sense the oneness of the field in ourselves and in others. We are entering the non duality of oneness and we experience the translucidity within us and within of the world. We experience the sameness of equality consciousness.

14.Moreover the different dimension of this awareness this amazing awareness begins to manfest to us, and we slowly but surely begin to feel and to glimpse the multidimensionalness of our own existence and the existence of others. You and I begin to experience ourselves as this unfolding field . We experience ourselves as this primordial awareness, un born and undying..and in these moments death itself begins to dissolve.

15.. Dudjome Rinpoche says by simply relaxing in this uncontrived ,open, natural state, we obtain the blessing of aimless, self liberation of whatever arises. Your karma is the dharma, the map of liberation is you life just it is..

14.there is a great lama named Penam Rinpoche. He visited the states one time a number of years ago. And he gave this talk on FIXATION. Penam Rinpoche would say never separate from awareness, never separate from awareness,never separate.

15.Fixation can take you out of the awareness field., out of the spontaneity of the field, out of the sea of awareness, this magical seathe sea of love.

16. He points out that the very indeterminateness of the unfolding field of primordial awareness can bring forth the spontaneity of the awareness field and that one can live and die within this spontaneous and syncrenistic unfolding. But the very spontaneity and syncrenistiy of the field can be overcome or undone by fixation. .Awareness can be loss because of fixation of our mind. There can be a fixation of thinking, a fixation of affective response, a fixation within fantasy, fixation within sensation, a fixation because of memory. Fixation creates mind or at least a very dense mind. Fixation creates density and disolves translucidity, disolves spaceousness.

17.Fixation destroys the field and the fullness of the field. Within fixation you go back to the beginning and become completely located within the box of your mind. You and I and everyone will always have problems but not necessarily fixatedness. Whatever is fixated bring the fixation into the field of awareness and awareness will dissolve fixation,metabolize the fixation. You can enter fixation and become fixatedness because of the fear of the indeterminanteness of this world, the vast array of unpredicableness, the vast array of lost, unending loss and to the degree you think you will solve this root problems by fixation and effort endless effort you will only become the fixation, never ending fixation. This is why the indeterminatess of reality, the impermanency, the contingency can not be dealt with by mind alone Within your own awareness is resolution to the terror of this experience of non knowningness what will happen next.

[Paul]

That's bullshitchen

[Paul]

 

When I say the mind is the ultimate abstraction, I mean that it is the least specific and most mysterious subject one can contemplate.

Bullshitchen

[goldisheavy]

Paul,

 

Here's how we contribute to this forum in different ways.

 

You taunt, goad, and titilate people in the hopes of attracting converts to your secret club.

 

I am here to share everything I know openly in an atmosphere of lateral collaboration. There is no secret club to join. And I am claiming the same spiritual benefits as what you claim for your secret club, minus of course the feel of a club itself.

[Paul]

Paul,

 

Here's how we contribute to this forum in different ways.

 

You taunt, goad, and titilate people in the hopes of attracting converts to your secret club.

 

I am here to share everything I know openly in an atmosphere of lateral collaboration. There is no secret club to join. And I am claiming the same spiritual benefits as what you claim for your secret club, minus of course the feel of a club itself.

I'm embarrassed for you

[goldisheavy]

I'm embarrassed for you

 

I know.

[idiot_stimpy]

.

Edited July 10, 2014 by idiot_stimpy

[Tibetan_Ice]

Asun,

The Buddha essence is omnipresent.

 

 

VIRTUES OF THE BUDDHA-ESSENCE 106b/1The Buddha-essence is pure (gTsang-Ba) because there has never been any stain on it. It is self-sacred (bDag DamPa) because it is changeless. It is eternal (rTag-Pa) because it is present at all the times. And it is the perfection of bliss (transcending mundane bliss) because it will not be subdued by suffering even if one falls (takes rebirth) into the totally suffering saṃsāra. In Uttaratantra it is said: Pure, self, bliss and eternalThe perfection of these is the result.

 

The Buddha-essence is omnipresent.

 

The Mahāyānasūtralaṁkāra says, People assert that space is always all-pervading. As space pervades all forms, it also pervades all beings. Thus, although the Buddha-essence is obscured by emotional defilements, it remains unstained like the sun in clouds. This essence remains indestructible from primordial time to enlightenment.

 

 

From The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo by Longchen Rabjam

 

 

[asunthatneversets]

Asun,

The Buddha essence is omnipresent.

 

From The Practice Of Dzogchen: An Anthology Of Longchen Rabjum's Writings On Dzogpa Chenpo by Longchen Rabjam

Yes, but still not in the sense you are misinterpreting it to be.

 

Not that you'll listen anyway.

[Apech]

When I say the mind is the ultimate abstraction, I mean that it is the least specific and most mysterious subject one can contemplate.

 

 

Sounds a little like Xuanxue. (?)

[goldisheavy]

Sounds a little like Xuanxue. (?)

 

This wouldn't be too surprising considering I love Laozi and Zhuangzi, both, and I was influenced by both. But I am not consciously or knowingly following Xuanxue. I mean I had to look it up just now in order to learn what it is. It sounds interesting, I'm reading about it now.

[goldisheavy]

Reading about the doctrine here it looks like I find plenty I disagree with.

 

These men in particular sought to move away from the apparent Taoist stress on withdrawal from the world, and develop a Taoist metaphysics and understanding of the Sage which would give support to the Confucian ideal of life in an ordered society.

 

I am myself anti-Confucian in many ways, although I do not regard the world as inherently unworthy of attachment or love. I also think our own world is pretty worthless, however, and is not worth attaching to or loving (getting involved with, sentimentally).

 

 

In his commentary on the Tao-te ching Wang Pi held that the multiplicity of phenomena arise from, and are sustained and governed by, pen-wu - non, or unmanifested, being. Only by transcending distinctions, and returning and identifying with this mysterious source, can the Sage understand and harmonise the manifested world, including society.

 

I can agree with this.

 

 

By contrast, in his commentary on the Chuang-tzu Kuo Hsiang argued that the universe has no source or Creator, rather it is self-producing and self governing according to its own li, or principle. Each individual thing shares in this principle in its own unique way, and harmony in the universe and society is achieved by each thing accepting and expressing its inner nature naturally, freely, and fully. The Sage is one who by liberating himself from personal preferences and limited human knowledge comes to know, merge with, and accept, all things as equal and necessary.

 

I can agree up to "has no source or Creator", but after that, I disagree with everything because it's too materialistic for my liking. Too rigid.

[Paul]

You guys remind of watching children playing grown ups babbling big words they don't understand.

[Apech]

Reading about the doctrine here it looks like I find plenty I disagree with.

 

 

I am myself anti-Confucian in many ways, although I do not regard the world as inherently unworthy of attachment or love. I also think our own world is pretty worthless, however, and is not worth attaching to or loving (getting involved with, sentimentally).

 

 

 

I can agree with this.

 

 

 

I can agree up to "has no source or Creator", but after that, I disagree with everything because it's too materialistic for my liking. Too rigid.

I'm a big fan of Wang BI (Pi) and John Lynn's translations of both his TTC and Yijing are very interesting.

[Apech]

You guys remind of watching children playing grown ups babbling big words they don't understand.

 

Funny that eh?

[Anderson]

There is no end to this but wisdom can put an end to it, that is if you have it.

 

I guess wisdom can manifest through moments of clarity, a moment where for example all of a sudden you deeply understand that you like everybody else will have to die at some point.

This tiny but very poignant little revelation can increase the wish to practice more and to be involved with the teaching in a more intense way.

Just a personal reflection.....

Edited July 10, 2014 by Anderson

[doc benway]

There is no end to this but wisdom can put an end to it, that is if you have it.

 

I guess wisdom can manifest through moments of clarity, a moment where for example all of a sudden you deeply understand that you like everybody will have to die at some point.

This tiny but very poignant little revelation can increase the wish to practice more and to be involved with the teaching in a more intense way.

Just a personal reflection.....

 

Such a blessing when the teachings reach our mind/heart as opposed to being stuck in the brain.

 

_/\_

[Simple_Jack]

What if we were to treat others here with respect, knowing that they were once our parents or children? At least, those of us who take this stuff seriously and try to live it. The others are free to agree, disagree, believe, disbelieve - it's fine. It's all part of the thig le nyag gcig, no?

 

When folks act like spoiled children, moderators will deal with them appropriately, and sincere practitioners will show some compassion and disengage if necessary. I think this is a better strategy than throwing rocks.

 

This sub-forum is a flame war in the making, when the conditions are ripe, add more flames to the fire! Together we could transmute this sub-forum from a stinking pile of shit into gold...comedic gold that is!

 

We certainly need to guard against the extreme of eternalism.

Similarly, we need to guard against nihilism.

Some of the earlier comments in this thread border nihilism, IMO.

 

Realists (Buddhist definition) dislike Prajnaparamita. Comparing your sentiment, with that of the majority on the TTB's, and it doesn't seem all that crazy when Nagarjuna describes neck hair standing on end, or the welling of tears of those who are "suitable vessels", when encountering Prajnaparamita (although lack of these signs doesn't exclude an individual with the requisite merit to encounter Prajnaparamita).

[GrandmasterP]

 

We're completely tolerant of folks enjoying whatever practice they want. But we don't tolerate debating about Dzogchen, at least, we won't join.

There's little that could pass for serious debate on here at all.

This thread is a shooting gallery of positions taken and then defended.

The Dzogchen boosters use their polysyllabic labels to bash the Buddhists and related trades one of whom makes counterstrikes by cutting and pasting yards of text lifted from his preferred reading, often without reference to source and generally transgressive of the spirit if not the law of copyright.

Passing off the words and ideas of others whilst seemingly devoid of any meaningful contributions of his own.

I call that the ' Dharma Wheel Gambit' as it's the default tactic of Dharma Wheel posters on some threads.

Taoists, in general; think for themselves and can give account of what they think.

Believers on the other hand can do nothing beyond copying us all in on those texts that tell them what to believe.

Quite frankly, apart from the handful of 'true believers' on here who cut and paste interminably; there is limited interest in dogmatics.

Religion, all of it; tends towards turning unanswerable questions into unquestionable answers.

Believers need something to believe in but it's truly sad to see young men pinning their hopes and dreams upon dead words from deader texts or placing their trust in some - lama dama ding dong - snake oil salesman flogging 'transmission' for cash on the nail.

Their best hope is that they might grow out of it and a better wish might be that they discover someone to hug who will hug them in return in order to fill the aching void of longing that is so clearly reified via their posts.

Edited July 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Simple_Jack]

Paul,

 

Here's how we contribute to this forum in different ways.

 

You taunt, goad, and titilate people in the hopes of attracting converts to your secret club.

 

I am here to share everything I know openly in an atmosphere of lateral collaboration. There is no secret club to join. And I am claiming the same spiritual benefits as what you claim for your secret club, minus of course the feel of a club itself.

 

Dude, this bullshit reminds me of your posts from yesteryear, that's not even an insult per se, it's actually a form of flattery. Your posts were an inspiration for my post here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32820-debunking-a-creator/?p=503998. What do you think?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Passing off the words and ideas of others whilst seemingly devoid of any meaningful contributions of his own.

I call that the ' Dharma Wheel Gambit' as it's the default tactic of Dharma Wheel posters on some threads.

Taoists, in general; think for themselves and can give accountbof what they think.

Believers on the other hand can do nothing beyond copying us all in on those texts that tell them what to believe.

Quite frankly, apart from the handful of 'true believers' on here who cut and paste interminably; there is limited interest in dogmatics.

Religion, all of it; tends towards turning unanswerable questions into unquestionable answers.

Believers need something to believe in butbitnisnsad to see young men pinningntheir hopes and dreams upon dead words from deader texts or placing their trust in some - lama dama ding dong - snake oil salesman flogging 'transmission' for cash on the nail.

Their best hope is that they might grow out of it and a better wish might be that they discover someone to hug who will hug them in return in order to fill that aching void reified via their posts.

 

Please continue to contradict yourself with your precious Tony Parsons & neoadvaitan cohorts.