Taoist schools - alchemy and qigong

[Antares]

I have dicided to create new topic as moderators are very unhappy when I post about this subj in other topics regarding taoist schools. I was advised to create my own topic. I will answer here some other posts from another threads.

 

 

 

Vitaly said:

 

 

It is not true.

On the video we can see Master Yuan Xiu Gang. I know him. He is a Daoist priest (Daoist name Shi Mao), is the 15th generation disciple of Wudang San Feng Pai.
Daoist School San Feng Pai has not only martial arts and Qigong, but also Inner Alchemy (meditation).

 

 

 

What is not true?

http://www.wudanggongfu.com/kungfu/master.htm

 

Born in 1971, Master Yuan Xiu Gang, a Daoist priest (Daoist name Shi Mao), is the 15th generation disciple of Wudang SanFeng Sect. This lineage dates back to the 14th century when Zhang San Feng became enlightened by the Dao and created Taijiquan.

Master Yuan has loved martial arts since his early childhood. At the age of 7, he started basic physical training in wushu, and at 16 he studied Shaolin wushu for 3 years. As a result of his increasing skill in gongfu, understanding of internal martial arts, and enthusiasm for Daoism, in 1991 he went to Wudang Mountain, the reknown center of Daoism and internal martial arts. Master Yuan was fortunate to be accepted as a disciple by the great Master Zhong Yun Long. Since then, Master Yuan has been practicing internal gongfu like TaiJi, Qigong, XingYi, BaGua, and meditation.

In 1994, Master Yuan was selected by the Wudang Taoist Association for Taoist Wushu Performance Team, and initiated into the Purple Heaven Palace, the largest Daoist temple at Wudang. With the blessing of the Chairman, Master Yuan joined the circle of Daoist culture. Since then, Master Yuan has furthered his practice of Daoist philosophy and internal gongfu.

As a member of the Taoist Wushu Performance Team, Master Yuan has traveled to various places in South East Asia to demonstrate Wudang gongfu. He has also represented Wudang when receiving high-level Government officials and celebrities from other countries in their visit to the Daoist mountain.

 

 

I can see nothing about alchemy on his official website. This is typical school of qigong and MA.

 

 

I personally respect qigong masters and methods and this thread is not against them but only to clarify the confusion.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Antares

[Vitalii]

I can see nothing about alchemy on his official website.

 

please, open your eyes and read carefully his website:

http://www.wudanggongfu.com/kungfu/meditation.htm

Edited June 7, 2014 by Vitalii

[Antares]

Here is he says something about "internal alchemy":

 

http://www.wudanggongfu.com/kungfu/meditation.htm

 

Meditation can belong to the alchemical method but only on the final stage of alchemy. In authentic alchemical methods meditation in the beginning is prohibited and cannot be alchemical method for itself. Also it can cause deviations in newbies. The explanation is very easy - most of people are in yin state; meditation increase yin and movements increase yang.

 

Also it does not mean that when someone does qigong movements or MA forms he/she does alchemical methods. "Stillness and movement" is not sign of a alchemical method. Latter one is very much about connection to the authentic lineage and its energy. That' the crucial point. Qigong and alchemy work with different channels and absolutely not equal. Before doing meditation practitioner must harmonise energy of a body using alchemical method which opens up prenatal channels and then nourishes prenatal qi. Qigong and mediataion have nothing to do with it.

[Antares]

please, open your eyes and read carefully his website:

http://www.wudanggongfu.com/kungfu/meditation.htm

You do not have transmission in authentic taoist school and I undesrstand where your confusion is coming from.

[Antares]

 

I am very confused about the statement. Qigong is a method which stands on its own. I have no idea that it was a corrupted method which derived from alchemical methods. Btw, the alchemical method is a form of Qigong as far as I know.

 

Qigong works with post heaven qi. This is akin to row in a current.

Neidan works with pre heaven qi. This is akin to row against the current.

 

The fiture of Neidan is to reverse the process of the "bear - life - death". A person "consists of" Ming and Xing when born.

Ming is the vital energy of a body. Xing is the soul. Yang and Yin. Soul is very Yin without energy Ming.

When Ming is gone a person dies. This happens when a person goes in the current of the Nature.

 

Qigong does not work with Ming. Neither meditation does it.

The fiture of a aclchemical method is to join Ming and Xing. It has stages in alchemy. There is a method for each stage in alchemy. What qigong does not have in its method. Qigong is good as preparation method for alchemy but it's not a part of Taoist school. Alchemical methods were invented in the Past when people where much more balanced and there was not necessary to practice qigong. Nowadays most people need to practice qigong prior to practicing Neidan in order to bring more balance to mind and body for the ability to practice Neidan. But Taoist schools do not have qigong as method. It could be some MA forms which saved in some Taoist sects but all of them are alchemical and far not what you can encounter on the market as qigong or just callisthenics.

[Antares]

insofar as wuxing is spoken of, imho strengthening the 5 element balance is absolutely conducive to the internal alchemy process.

 

and please tell me who wrote the hard and fast rule that waidan should be skipped if one is practicing neidan

 

Wuxing strengthens more physical organs and strengthens post heaven qi. It can balance something and imbalance something at the same time. It does not work with Ming but can be good as initial method on the initial stage. But this is not a method for itself. As I mentioned there are fixed methods for every stage in neidan but there are no fixed methods for realization in qigong. They can give out some theory on this but as I believe it is corrupted methods. The difference is in the structure of exercises and the level they work with our energy. Also it can be even harmful when the lineage is not authentic. There are many qigong systems which can connect person to some egregor which is fed up by practitioners energy giving them some sensations.

[Antares]

In pure alchemical methods the theory and methodology of WuXing are used. The stucture is:

 

Water -> Wood -> Fire-> Earth-> Metal

 

Each method correlates with certain organ and pre heaven channels. This is practiced not for nourishing yuan qi yet but for balancing organs and building pre heaven channels which must be built for the further goal of nourishing yuan qi. Because when people are aging their prenatal channels are weakened and illnesses are coming. Qigong does not work with these channels.

 

This theory and methodology I am getting in YuXianPai school where people are getting very good results .

Edited June 7, 2014 by Antares

[Ish]

Can you give some examples of what good results some are achieving in your school Antares?

Edited June 7, 2014 by Ish

[joeblast]

Wuxing strengthens more physical organs and strengthens post heaven qi. It can balance something and imbalance something at the same time. It does not work with Ming but can be good as initial method on the initial stage. But this is not a method for itself. As I mentioned there are fixed methods for every stage in neidan but there are no fixed methods for realization in qigong. They can give out some theory on this but as I believe it is corrupted methods. The difference is in the structure of exercises and the level they work with our energy. Also it can be even harmful when the lineage is not authentic. There are many qigong systems which can connect person to some egregor which is fed up by practitioners energy giving them some sensations.

if you want to argue, we have a great place here called the pit where you can say any crap you want and nitpick over the tiniest little details and the most esoteric vague meanings of all these words.

 

 

hey, once you get those words all straightened out, perhaps that'll produce a spark

[Jox]

The fiture of Neidan is to reverse the process of the "bear - life - death". A person "consists of" Ming and Xing when born.

Ming is the vital energy of a body. Xing is the soul. Yang and Yin. Soul is very Yin without energy Ming.

When Ming is gone a person dies.

Qigong does not work with Ming. Neither meditation does it.

The fiture of a aclchemical method is to join Ming and Xing. It has stages in alchemy. There is a method for each stage in alchemy. What qigong does not have in its method. Qigong is good as preparation method for alchemy but it's not a part of Taoist school ...

 

Wuxing strengthens more physical organs and strengthens post heaven qi. It can balance something and imbalance something at the same time. It does not work with Ming but can be good as initial method on the initial stage ...

 

Ming is vital energy - chi. Xing is the soul.

Would you like to explain how / why qi gong doesnt work with Ming?

 

Vould you like to write a little more about xing and ming (maybe some informative link ...)?

[Jox]

if you want to argue, we have a great place here called the pit where you can say any crap you want and nitpick over the tiniest little details and the most esoteric vague meanings of all these words.

 

 

hey, once you get those words all straightened out, perhaps that'll produce a spark

 

I also got thought, why this is not in The Pit ...

Edited June 7, 2014 by Jox

[Friend]

Wuxing strengthens more physical organs and strengthens post heaven qi. It can balance something and imbalance something at the same time. It does not work with Ming but can be good as initial method on the initial stage. But this is not a method for itself. As I mentioned there are fixed methods for every stage in neidan but there are no fixed methods for realization in qigong. They can give out some theory on this but as I believe it is corrupted methods. The difference is in the structure of exercises and the level they work with our energy. Also it can be even harmful when the lineage is not authentic. There are many qigong systems which can connect person to some egregor which is fed up by practitioners energy giving them some sensations.

The problem is that without proper teaching alchemical turn to qigong and worse a qigong turn to callinestics.

[Antares]

Can you give some examples of what good results some are achieving in your school Antares?

 

All instructors can see the energy and able to do corrections out of this, that' most wonderful thing I noticed for myself. Even if a student was slightly tensed in some parts of the body.

 

Also it changes the mind and soul, they become healthy and general wellbeing is increased. Sensation of harmony is the most important. All extra ordinary abillities are considered to be like flowers on the road, the geneal and only the goal - the spiritual immortality

[dawei]

I personally respect qigong masters and methods and this thread is not against them but only to clarify the confusion.

 

 

You do not have transmission in authentic taoist school and I undesrstand where your confusion is coming from.

 

 

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

 

It is not about mods are unhappy that you post this subject in other topics but it becomes confrontative and trolling at times.

 

You have a history of intentionally trying to discredit another member.

 

That is what will not be tolerated; in another thread or this thread.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

The subject matter is fine and the history and explanation of YOUR understanding of alchemy and YOUR particular pursuit is going to interest people. Trying to tell another their lineage is wrong because yours is right is exactly the Mo Pai discussion problems. The topic is fine. The posting behavior can cross the line.

 

BTW: I like the topic as I know others do. Let's not simply use it as a vehicle to try and discredit another. You can certainly compare two lineages or practices and show their differences but it is almost crossing a line when you start telling another person they don't have transmission in a school just because you don't want to recognize it.

[Antares]

if you want to argue, we have a great place here called the pit where you can say any crap you want and nitpick over the tiniest little details and the most esoteric vague meanings of all these words.

 

Probably I am talking to a teenager. I have only disclosed some information for those who ready for serious things in their lifes. I understand that some part of this information can be used for wrong things and that not everyone can accept it. It happened in all times when pure Tradition came out from underground. This is not for everyone. I am confused when hear such words that come from someone's mouth. Probably this is just not for you. As I said before one must have the fate to get right methods. Most of people are not ready for it

Edited June 7, 2014 by Antares

[BaguaKicksAss]

You have a lineage chart we can look at Antares? (since you are calling out another member for lack thereof).

 

It doesn't necessarily take lineage to see a student's energy, how it flows and etc., and offer corrections with such, btw. Oh sure it helps, but some folks just have it. The whole can feel the alignment is off before you see it with your eyes . Sort of like some acupuncturists have it.... Then there are some teachers with very impressive lineages who can't see this very well; I never understood what is up with that (since impressive lineages generally come with proper teaching and exercises to get one there)

[Antares]

It is not about mods are unhappy that you post this subject in other topics but it becomes confrontative and trolling at times.

 

Trolling is not acceptable term in this case. I always prove my words. I respect all authentic masters in qigong/alchemy/MA. But Vitaly is a special case.

You would understand me better if you speak Russian and could read all information about his activity. If I would disclose all this information about this case it would take much time and moderators will ban me again. There are few taoist forums in Russia akin to Tao Bums and all of them have certain opinion - this is self claimed "master" from unknown school in China.

[thelerner]

Another Mod Warning

We were hoping you could discuss your views on Alchemy without bringing up and insulting another's members view. I'd ask you to edit your first post. You can make your point without bringing in another member.

 

I think this counts as a continuation of trolling behavior (putting u on very thin ice). I don't think you meant it that way and you have a sincere difference of belief. Keep the belief and discussion going, but stop the personal writings about Vitallii. A good start being editing away the reference to Vitalii.

[dawei]

Trolling is not acceptable term in this case. I always prove my words. I respect all authentic masters in qigong/alchemy/MA. But Vitaly is a special case.

You would understand me better if you speak Russian and could read all information about his activity. If I would disclose all this information about this case it would take much time and moderators will ban me again. There are few taoist forums in Russia akin to Tao Bums and all of them have certain opinion - this is self claimed "master" from unknown school in China.

 

I don't think the task here is to be a self-claim expert-on-discrediting self-claimed masters.

 

Move on in the topic. thanks.

[Antares]

We were hoping you could discuss your views on Alchemy without bringing up and insulting another's members view

 

This is not my view but view of three authentic lineages in China. Where was I insulting someone? Any facts which you can prove of the exception you call me troll? Is not it insulting me personality? Which authentic sect you belong to judge me? Why are you not warned to stop insulting me? If you yourself can prove your statements regarding taoism with reference to authentic lineage I will apriciate it.

[Antares]

I don't think the task here is to be a self-claim expert-on-discrediting self-claimed masters.

 

Move on in the topic. thanks.

 

The task here is to stop spreading misconceptions about authentic taoism.

[thelerner]

This is not my view but view of three authentic lineages in China. Where was I insulting someone? Any facts which you can prove of the exception you call me troll? Is not it insulting me personality? Which authentic sect you belong to judge me? Why are you not warned to stop insulting me? If you yourself can prove your statements regarding taoism with reference to authentic lineage I will apriciate it.

Mod Comment (hopefully my last here)

You are missing the point. We have 7 pages of discussion in the mod section about your trolling behavior from numerous members here on several threads. It is not about proving what is authentic, its ABOUT BOARD ETTIQUETTE.

 

Perhaps the best way to say this is-If you continue what members and the mods consider trolling another member, then you will be suspended. Please note, this is not what you consider to be trolling, it is what we, the board does.

 

You are enough of a valued member that I will only recommend a 2 week suspension, others may want something longer.

 

You can keep the theme of the discussion going, your view is valid but please leave your vendetta's against other members out of it. A good start would be editing away remarks about another member in the first post. Keep the subject drop the personal references.

[GrandmasterP]

Oh man, this shit again!

Get over it FFS.

If someone is happy with their teacher that's super.

If they love and admire their teacher's lineage that's super-excellent too.

How many though pitch up at Bagua 101 or anywhere else knowing the first thing about lineage and how many who stick with the programme give a toss?

Very few indeed.

The only time ever I see lineage bandied about online is some twonk banging on about how his ( it's always a guy bragging) teacher's lineage is so much better than someone else's teacher's lineage.

Now that is the purest of BS as anyone with even half a brain knows.

Anyone remotely interested in lineage as a study area definitely does NOT diss any lineage at all.

We respectfully acknowledge all lineages and lineage holders along with their students.

That is common good manners.

One also recognises that there are perfectly valid cultivations and teachers outside of traditional lineages.

Look no further than my sig for one and it's the only one officially tolerated in China where most of 'our' stuff came from in the first place.

Lineage should never be an issue. If something suits you and works for you then go with it and have the basic common sense to realise that what suits one person does not necessarily suit another, hence all the choices on offer.

This almost constant carping on about how someone's lineage can beat up someone else's lineage is akin to a pre school kid shouting insults at another kid across the nursery playground.

Edited June 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

 

The task here is to stop spreading misconceptions about authentic taoism.

And you are the arbiter of that are you Antares?

Grow up lad.

Edited June 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Aetherous]

I personally love to learn about preheaven versus postheaven jing qi and shen...but please try to understand what the moderators are saying so this type of discussion can continue. It's interesting and potentially educational.

 

It is true, there are false schools of alchemy...but don't point them out directly, because on this forum that's against the rules. It's like an insult to that practitioner and tradition. You'll get suspended or banned, and then the discussion is over. What's the point of that?