Pain and Zen

[Mark Foote]

Thanks, GrandmasterP for the link, I'd forgotten about that one.

 

Yascra, I also came to hamstring stretches before sitting; checking a yoga page, I guess I'm close to janu sirsasana. Also now adding in ardhu matsyendrasana, "half lord of the fishes pose" (what a great name!).

 

Regarding pain in the traditional poses of meditation and Chinese martial arts, I have written quite a bit about reciprocal innervation, a term I learned from reading about Dr. John Upledger's experience of it, which I've paraphrased here:

 

"Upledger experienced the phenomena of reciprocal innervation personally, as he lay on the surface of a dense solution of salt water in an isolation chamber. When he felt his relaxation was complete, he noticed a slight motion from side to side in his pelvis and legs. From his medical training, he knew that the motion he felt was caused by reciprocal innervation: when the pelvis and legs moved to the left, ligaments on the right side of the torso were stretched, and nerve impulses generated by the ligaments caused muscles on the right to contract; the contraction on the right reversed the direction of movement and relieved the ligaments on the right, yet when the lower body crossed to the right the ligaments on the left began to stretch, until nerve impulses from the ligaments on the left caused the muscles on the left to contract. Upledger watched his lower body shift slowly from side to side as he relaxed completely."

 

Can't tell you in which of his books he told the story, unfortunately.

 

The application is this: the traditional postures of meditation and Tai-Chi usually involve stretch in ligaments sufficient to initiate reciprocal innervation in all three directions in the plane. I look for motion in the three directions with the sense of location, and relax. With relaxation my sense of location often flips (sinks?) into my lower abdomen. Yes there is induction here, a state between waking and sleeping, usually through relaxation with respect to inhalation and exhalation (though the induction can't be "done", it's a letting go thing). Yes that would be why I experience my awareness as in my lower abdomen, rather than in my head looking at my lower abdomen, and how I experience the parts of the body (with no part left out) with the location of awareness.

 

I need a stretch that is close enough to strain to generate activity side to side, corner to corner, and forward and back, and a relaxation like I'm falling asleep, totally relinquishing volition in favor of the experience of the senses (including the sense of location that incorporates the body with no part left out).

 

"Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. ...When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!"

 

Kobun Chino Otogawa, here.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Mark Foote

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks, GrandmasterP for the link, I'd forgotten about that one.

 

Yascra, I also came to hamstring stretches before sitting; checking a yoga page, I guess I'm close to janu sirsasana. Also now adding in ardhu matsyendrasana, "half lord of the fishes pose" (what a great name!).

 

Regarding pain in the traditional poses of meditation and Chinese martial arts, I have written quite a bit about reciprocal innervation, a term I learned from reading about Dr. John Upledger's experience of it, which I've paraphrased here:

 

"Upledger experienced the phenomena of reciprocal innervation personally, as he lay on the surface of a dense solution of salt water in an isolation chamber. When he felt his relaxation was complete, he noticed a slight motion from side to side in his pelvis and legs. From his medical training, he knew that the motion he felt was caused by reciprocal innervation: when the pelvis and legs moved to the left, ligaments on the right side of the torso were stretched, and nerve impulses generated by the ligaments caused muscles on the right to contract; the contraction on the right reversed the direction of movement and relieved the ligaments on the right, yet when the lower body crossed to the right the ligaments on the left began to stretch, until nerve impulses from the ligaments on the left caused the muscles on the left to contract. Upledger watched his lower body shift slowly from side to side as he relaxed completely."

 

Can't tell you in which of his books he told the story, unfortunately.

 

The application is this: the traditional postures of meditation and Tai-Chi usually involve stretch in ligaments sufficient to initiate reciprocal innervation in all three directions in the plane. I look for motion in the three directions with the sense of location, and relax. With relaxation my sense of location often flips (sinks?) into my lower abdomen. Yes there is induction here, a state between waking and sleeping, usually through relaxation with respect to inhalation and exhalation (though the induction of such a state can't be "done"). Yes that would be why I experience my awareness as in my lower abdomen, rather than in my head looking at my lower abdomen, and how I experience the parts of the body (with no part left out) at the location of awareness.

 

I need a stretch that is close enough to strain to generate activity side to side, corner to corner, and forward and back, and a relaxation like I'm falling asleep, totally relinquishing volition in favor of the experience of a sense of location that incorporates the body (and more), with no part left out.

 

"Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. ...When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!"

 

Kobun Chino Otogawa, here.

And how does this relate to pain?

[Mark Foote]

And how does this relate to pain?

 

What I describe is relaxation that allows reciprocal activity in three diirections out of stretch, hopefully prior to strain and pain; this is possible in the tradtional postures, in my experience, but you're right that what is described in Three Pillars of Zen is a good way to break a knee-- an experience some Americans had when they went to Japan I believe.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Mark Foote

[Tibetan_Ice]

from the Three Pillars of Zen:

 

THERE CAN BE no doubt that for most Westerners, who seem by nature more active and restless than Asians, sitting perfectly still in zazen, even in a chair, is physically and mentally painful. Their unwillingness to endure such pain and discomfort even for short periods of time undoubtedly stems from a deeply entrenched conviction that it is not only senseless but even masochistic to accept pain deliberately when ways can be found to escape or mitigate it. Not unsurprisingly, therefore, do we have the attempt on the part of some commentators, obviously unpracticed in Zen, to show that sitting is not indispensable to Zen discipline.

 

In his The Way of Zen (pp. 101, 103) Alan Watts even tries to prove, by citing portions of a well-known dialogue, that the Zen masters themselves have impugned sitting. The following is our translation of the dialogue:

 

Ma-tsu was doing zazen daily in his hut on Nan-yueh Mountain. Watching him one day, Huai-jang, his master, thought, He will become a great monk, and inquired: Worthy one, what are you trying to attain by sitting? Ma-tsu replied: I am trying to become a Buddha. Thereupon Huai-jang picked up a piece of roof tile and began grinding it on a rock in front of him. What are you doing, Master? asked Ma-tsu. I am polishing it to make a mirror, said Huai-jang. How could polishing a tile make a mirror? How could sitting in zazen make a Buddha? Ma-tsu asked: What should I do, then? Huai-jang replied: If you were driving a cart and it didnt move, would you whip the cart or whip the ox? Ma-tsu made no reply. Huai-jang continued: Are you training yourself in zazen? Are you striving to become a sitting Buddha? If you are training yourself in zazen, [let me tell you that the substance of] zazen is neither sitting nor lying down. If you are training yourself to become a sitting Buddha, [let me tell you that] Buddha has no one form [such as sitting]. The Dharma, which has no fixed abode, allows of no distinctions. If you try to become a sitting Buddha, this is no less than killing the Buddha. If you cling to the sitting form you will not attain the essential truth.

 

Upon hearing this, Ma-tsu felt as refreshed as though he had drunk an exquisite nectar. TO HIS OWN TRANSLATION Mr. Watts adds (p. 113): This seems to be the consistent doctrine of all the Tang masters from Hui-neng [the Sixth Patriarch] to Lin-chi [Rinzai]. Nowhere in their teachings have I been able to find any instructions in or recommendation of the type of zazen which is today the principal occupation of Zen monks. Evidently he overlooked The Zen Teaching of Huang Po (as translated by John Blofeld), where we find Huang Po, who died in 850, advising (p. 131): When you practice mind-control (zazen or dhyana), sit in the proper position, stay perfectly tranquil, and do not permit the least movement of your mind to disturb you. Surely this is clear proof that zazen as it is carried on in Japan today was an established practice even in the Tang era, as indeed it was in the Buddhas time. Moreover, to construe the dialogue quoted above as a condemnation of zazen is to do violence to the whole spirit of the koan.

 

Far from implying that sitting in zazen is as useless as trying to polish a roof tile into a mirrorthough it is easy for one who has never practiced Zen to come to such a conclusionHuai-jang is in fact trying to teach Ma-tsu that Buddhahood does not exist outside himself as an object to strive for, since we are all Buddhas from the very first. Obviously Ma-tsu, who later became a great master, was under the illusion at the time that Buddhahood was something different from himself. Huai-jang is saying in effect: How could you become a Buddha through sitting if you were not a Buddha to begin with? This would be as impossible as trying to polish a roof tile into a mirror.25 In other words, zazen does not bestow Buddhahood; it uncovers a Buddha-nature which has always existed. Furthermore, through the act of grinding the tile Huai-jang is...concretely revealing to Ma-tsu that the polishing is itself the expression of this Buddha-nature, which transcends all forms, including that of sitting or standing or lying down.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

More from ttpoz:

 

STUDENT: Yes, of course. Now, I was sitting quietly doing zazen, and then I had a great deal of pain. I didnt know whether I ought to try to endure the pain or to give up when it got too intense. My real problem, in other words, is this: Should I bring my will to bear or should I sit passively, without forcing myself?

 

ROSHI: This is an important problem. Eventually you will reach the point where you can sit comfortably, free from strain or pain. But from long habit of misusing our body and mind, in the beginning we must exert our will before we can sit with ease and equilibrium. And this inevitably entails pain. When the bodys center of gravity is established in the region just below the navel, the entire body functions with greater stability. The center of gravity in the average person is in the shoulders. Moreover, instead of sitting and walking with an erect back, most people slump, placing an inordinate strain on all parts of the body. We likewise misemploy our mind, playing with and harboring all kinds of useless thoughts. This is why we have to make a determined effort to use the body and mind properly. At first it is unavoidably painful, but if you persevere, the pain will gradually give way to a feeling of exhilaration. You will become physically stronger and mentally more alert. This is the experience of all who do zazen regularly and devotedly.

[Mark Foote]

The question concerns the exercise of will, and the answer given by the Zen teacher is that at first you must exercise your will, and there will be pain.

 

I'm not saying this is wrong, but I am suggesting that maybe it doesn't have to be this way. It's my belief that if I had known when I started out what I know now, I could have avoided the pain. I chose, however, not to exercise will to sit through the pain, because I know myself pretty well, and I was pretty certain that I would only injure myself in the attempt. Instead, I took my time with the lotus, which is what Kobun Chino Otogawa advised people to do in one of his lectures.

 

Kobun said he did not have pain or numbness in the lotus (and he said that after the third of three 7-day sesshins). He started sitting when he was 8, and was the son of the abbot of a Zen temple in Japan. He said he did have pain in seiza.

 

The information that has been most important to me is not really directly connected to the posture; I wrote it up in a one page essay for some folks, here: waking up and falling asleep. Nevertheless, that is how I am able to sit without the exercise of making a buddha out of a tile (it's the sense of location that includes everything that moves).

 

“Mind,having no fixed abode, should flow forth”

These are the words that Huineng heard from the Diamond Sutra in the marketplace when his zither got plucked. Other possible translations and their source:

‘…Robert Aitken says, “One tradition states that this moment occurred at the lines: ‘Dwell nowhere and bring forth the mind.” Sekida says it was, “Without abiding anywhere, let the mind work.” Shibayama says it was the line, “No mind, no abode, and here works the mind.” (These are all from commentaries on Mumonkan case #23′”)

[Rara]

Something that improves awareness and body-consciousness, instead of helping people to get more body-dead than they might have been before?

But well, I might be influenced too much by internal instead of outer MA.

Sure, and yes internal techniques are all good. Either way that doesn't invite pain

 

But in "external" martial arts, one has to expect to get hit. Quite badly...because someone one the street isn't going to hold back if they have a serious problem with you.

 

I see internal and external martial arts being for two separate purposes. Yet, if an external MA is being learnt, I say it is wise to practice an internal martial art/meditation along with it...

[doc benway]

I'm currently reading a wonderful book called Stars of Wisdom by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche.

One section of the book includes two songs of Milarepa and associated commentary.

Milarepa sings about the wonderful nature of all those things with which we struggle.

The worse the adversity, the more he likes it - fear, pain, confusion, anger, demons, bullies - one challenge is better than the next.

Each challenge gives him the opportunity to look at who it is that is experiencing the adversity and the thoughts associated with the experience and, voila, there is nothing there to find - how wonderful!

Many very inspiring things in Milarepa's songs.

On the other hand, I don't personally subscribe to the zen approach of forced sitting and enduring pain - not my current path.

But I do think the idea of taking pain and whatever challenges present themselves in our lives as our path for recognizing emptiness (attaining wisdom) is skillful means.

[Jetsun]

I'm not sure that is a uniform Zen approach to force people to sit through pain, it is one approach to try to illuminate a particular affliction many people suffer from yet I wouldn't say it is crucial and for many could be a hindrance. Not all Zen teachers operate that way.

 

In many circles Zen is as corrupted and lacking in wisdom as most Christian churches and there is a lot if imitation of wisdom rather than genuine wisdom, then periodically a new genuine master appears and tells all the other hundreds of masters out there that what they are teaching is just a pile of shit. So there is a periodic renewal of what is real Zen, which is how it is kept alive. So unless you have been instructed to do such a practice by a master you trust I would trust your own intuition over what is said in a book.

[doc benway]

 

So unless you have been instructed to do such a practice by a master you trust I would trust your own intuition over what is said in a book.

 

Repeated for emphasis - well said.