The "Official" Mo Pai & "Things You Might Not Know About Real Mo Pai" Thread

[GrandmasterP]

Ken, you speak of respect for Jim and his private teachings. I find it ironic that Jim, himself, did not have the honor and respect for John Chang and his lineage when he taught others Mo Pai's techniques when he never had permission to do so. Before anyone can debate whether Jim had John Chang's permission to teach, consider this, if John Chang himself was not allowed to teach non-Chinese, would he give permission to Jim to teach to others? Furthermore, I have read Jim's instructions on Mo Pai techniques. They are faulty and many parts of the instructions Jim added himself, thus, not the real Mo Pai techniques. Just be careful when you train using those improper instructions.

And you know this how?

No disrespect buddy but anyone can pop up on TTB claiming inside knowledge of MoPai.

That's been half the problem.

BS masquerading as 'fact'.

In order to debate what MoPai we have ( on SoTG's site) we need to discuss what we can see not some possibly illusory 'knowledge' alleged to live inside a poster's head.

SoTG has published Jim's teachings, if you have MoPai teachings that contradict Jim's then- with respect- either 'put up or shut up'.

Edited June 29, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

Oh, you were serious? I thought that was obvious sarcasm.

 

In that case, you say you're talking to Jim's spirit, and he says SOTG is better off with his lessons and his "lineage", than his actual students from his "lineage" (excluding myself here, because I wasn't a student of Jim's)?

 

Not that I shun spirit communication or anything, but that is quite a bold statement. You should prepare something to back it up, in my opinion.

 

I'll do my best, as always.

So as not to derail this excellent, and so far incredibly polite; thread chat about specifics of MoPai praxes though...

Any Qs for Jim to me via PM and I'll pass those on and see what comes back.

I'm not the Post Office though ( no medium is) so please be patient.

[SonOfTheGods]

Jim obviously ( he told me) approves of Sonofthe Gods carrying on his work and that's all good.

SonoftheGods can lay claim to Jim's lineage ( from 'spirit').

Jim's teachings continue via SoTG's useful website.

In order to debate what MoPai we have ( on SoTG's site) we need to discuss what we can see not some possibly illusory 'knowledge' alleged to live inside a poster's head.

SoTG has published Jim's teachings, if you have MoPai teachings that contradict Jim's then- with respect- either 'put up or shut up'.

 

I have said, on many occasions, the 'Westernized version" of the MoPai is faulty.

 

Just by having a western-mindframe/upbringing -negates the central foundation of MoPai core teachings- spiritism, and the various virtues- humbleness, patience.

 

The ONLY place to continue onward with Jim McMillan's western MoPai teachings was with MorePieGuy.

 

MorePieGuy "learned" through Telephone/Email (non-physical contact correspondance course)-from Jim McMillan.

 

If you want to learn more about who Jim McMillan was- I have a link on my forum page (the same page with the MoPai Levels 1&2) that will provide you with a Free copy of Jim's Autobiography "Seeking the Master of MoPai".

 

If you read it- you will UNDERSTAND WHERE WESTERN MOPAI WENT WRONG.

 

Since I had the mopaiforumotion forum- I have received MANY emails and PMs DAILY -asking me for MoPai instruction.

 

ALL the Seekers said they DID NOT WANT ANY CONTACT WITH MOREPIEGUY.

 

They did NOT want him as a "Teacher"

 

So what to do?

 

I had Jim McMillan's instructions for a long long time.

 

I never ever intended to release them.

 

But the western mopie clique "over there" is just impossible to deal with.

 

They have zero knowledge of NeiGong.

MoPai is Nei Gong, not a combat martial art. Where did you get that idea? If MoPai would be a combat art, it wouldn't be taught alongside a Kung Fu style. You show again that you're clueless.

 

They did not even know MoPai was a Combat Martial Art..

 

AND- Here's Kosta's Interview on TaoBums: PAGE 9

 

Ish, on 12 November 2011 - 09:37 PM, said:

 

Were there any practices more focused on the "mind" level rather than the energetic level in the Mo Pai system? What were their aims?

 

Kosta's Answer:

 

MoPai neikung is strictly energetics. It was primarily developed for combat after all.

 

So, on My Forums - I will keep the Western Mopai instructions from Jim McMillan.

 

Practice them at Your Own Risk.

 

However, ALSO on my forums, I also have my Own Techniques that I have devised over the last 40 years.

 

Joeblast is also a member who has outstanding knowledge and experience.

 

Just between us both- we have MORE experience and hands on knowledge than Jim or Kosta could ever provide.

Bold statement, Indeed.

 

if you want to learn Authentic MoPai- You will need to go to Indonesia.

 

Even if you find John Chang- he is anathema from the Motzu Lineage.

 

You need their Motzu Bloodline=Ancestors to continue onward because it is a Spiritual Transmission/Guidance/Blessing

 

John Chang learned most of his knowledge from the infamous 72 level manual- but he also was in Spirit Communication with his Deceased Master.

These are the Insights that westen mopai- Jim included- MISSED.

 

Ken, you speak of respect for Jim and his private teachings. I find it ironic that Jim, himself, did not have the honor and respect for John Chang and his lineage when he taught others Mo Pai's techniques when he never had permission to do so. Before anyone can debate whether Jim had John Chang's permission to teach, consider this, if John Chang himself was not allowed to teach non-Chinese, would he give permission to Jim to teach to others? Furthermore, I have read Jim's instructions on Mo Pai techniques. They are faulty and many parts of the instructions Jim added himself, thus, not the real Mo Pai techniques. Just be careful when you train using those improper instructions.

Edited June 29, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[joeblast]

Ugghhh...

 

Non-sense and garbage is all I see in your post. You can't even meditate for 5 hours yet you think you are somehow advanced. You know nothing of real meditation.

 

I couldn't even finish reading your article. Too long and full of non-sense.

 

I'd say MPG has accomplished 1,000x more than you will eer accomplish in your entire lifetime. He's just not dumb enough to shout everything he expereinces to the world and think it means anything. It would just be more noise among the sea of rubish and complete non-sense.

 

All this non-sense about doing 3 sessions in one day is rediculous. Do some real training and go longer than 3 hours at a time (if you can even do that).

 

Everything you say is like a joke to me. If you want to continue this discussion it should be off site. I'm through discussing with you here. We can continue on MPG's forum, the unmoded section of my forum, PM, or email. I refuse to converse any more on this thread conserning the current debate.

I cant believe you just gave me a TLDR *shakes head* ...well, that is indicative of your actual thirst for learning, you're still only focused on what appears to you to be the shiniest brass ring, and hell with everything else. sad.

[BaguaKicksAss]

And you know this how?

No disrespect buddy but anyone can pop up on TTB claiming inside knowledge of MoPai.

That's been half the problem.

BS masquerading as 'fact'.

In order to debate what MoPai we have ( on SoTG's site) we need to discuss what we can see not some possibly illusory 'knowledge' alleged to live inside a poster's head.

SoTG has published Jim's teachings, if you have MoPai teachings that contradict Jim's then- with respect- either 'put up or shut up'.

 

Through extensive IP research and questioning via PM, I feel that Tongkosong is who/what he says he is.

[dawei]

Sure, it may have primarily been develop for combat, but even so, that doesn't make it necessarily combat martial art, does it? It just means it has connections to combat, or can be used for combat, similar to how swords were developed for combat, but swords in themselves are not a combat art. Just a tool.

 

I think this is a reasonable point... I think the same could be said of Tai Ji on some level... the original development of a system may not be the intended use throughout all ages by all people... The power developed by a system is there.

[SonOfTheGods]

SonOfTheGods, on 28 Jun 2014 - 20:48, said:

 

AND- Here's Kosta's Interview on TaoBums: PAGE 9

 

Ish, on 12 November 2011 - 09:37 PM, said:

 

Were there any practices more focused on the "mind" level rather than the energetic level in the Mo Pai system? What were their aims?

 

Kosta's Answer:

 

MoPai neikung is strictly energetics. It was primarily developed for combat after all.

 

Then we must conclude that Kosta is Clueless about MoPai and "Magus of Java" is rubbish.

 

Which was my original premise all along

[Leif]

There are no Copyrights as Mr. McMillan is deceased.

 

That's the least legit of all the excuses posted, just plain wrong. And why the need to justify making it available, in the first place.

 

So here it is for Free- like all my stuff- FREE.

 

OK but this one is not 'your stuff'?

 

 

I might be wrong it's been some time but weren't the posts here in the past, pointing to the same lessons though located elsewhere, deleted by mods due to breaking site rules? I believe so.

[KenBrace]

 

That's the least legit of all the excuses posted, just plain wrong. And why the need to justify making it available, in the first place.

 

 

OK but this one is not 'your stuff'?

 

 

I might be wrong it's been some time but weren't the posts here in the past, pointing to the same lessons though located elsewhere, deleted by mods due to breaking site rules? I believe so.

Agreed.

[KenBrace]

 

Then we must conclude that Kosta is Clueless about MoPai and "Magus of Java" is rubbish.

 

Which was my original premise all along

There is a difference between Kosta's personal opinions and quotes by Chang simply forwarded by Kosta. If Kosta had quoted Chang when saying that Mo Pai is a martial art then I would change my views. Edited June 29, 2014 by KenBrace

[joeblast]

Agreed.

but there's no problem with having it on your site? you're not even able to give the appearance of being impartial and unbiased.

 

 

out of the mouths of babes

[tongkosong]

It seems to me that Chang was always in favor of it being taught to the west, considering the fact that he took 5 students in even though it put him in hot water. I can't say for sure whether or not Chang gave Jim direct permission, but he definitely wasn't "disrepecting" him. He was carrying out his wishes from what I can tell. Jim stated that Chang did give him direct permission to teach though and I have no reason not to believe him. What is your side of the story?

 

Ken, yes, John Chang wanted non-Chinese to know more about Neigong because neigong allows us, human beings, to be more than who most of us are. He wanted to share this knowledge, but, he was reminded of his oath to Mo Pai's rule (an ancient rule, not made recently as some might think). Thus, he stopped all teachings. When Jim started to teach others, he did so without John Chang's permission. How I know? I asked John Chang himself and there were correspondences between John Chang's son and Jim discussing this issue. You may doubt my identity as a Mo Pai student, but, I have been a Tao Bum member more than five years, and throughout that time, I have corresponded with many Tao Bum members in regards to Mo Pai. If anything I have stated been untrue, please take this time to refute me.

 

I understand your frustration, Ken, and many of your fellow practitioners. Many of us in Mo Pai understand this, however, we, as students of the Mo Pai lineage, are bound to our oath to the Mo Pai's rules and regulations. There is nothing we can do. If John Chang, himself, can't go against the rules, how can we as students do so? If so, how can Jim has John Chang's blessings to teach.

 

Ken, no one can force you to stop doing what you do. Believe me, I have tried telling many people the dangers of practicing Neigong techniques improperly and without the guidance of a proper teacher from that system, and most still continued their training. There are a few (I won't mention their names) who suffered some "side affects" from improperly practicing these techniques. Even those still continued training. My advice to you is to find a neigong system that will accept you as students and has teachers who will guide you in your training. I am sure there are some. I apologize if this is not the answer you seek. Believe me, there are many people just like you, some even moved to Indonesia, but we have to honor and abide to our lineage and rules. If you can't accept this, then forgive our hardheadedness because we are nothing if we live without honor and obedience to our ancestors.

 

To Leo, I'm sorry for not understanding your statement as follows: "The techniques may be lacking, but then, do you fully salute what you deem as improper techniques, posted as MoPai?"

 

I wish you all safe training.

[dawei]

That's the least legit of all the excuses posted, just plain wrong. And why the need to justify making it available, in the first place.

 

 

OK but this one is not 'your stuff'?

 

 

I might be wrong it's been some time but weren't the posts here in the past, pointing to the same lessons though located elsewhere, deleted by mods due to breaking site rules? I believe so.

 

I can't speak to whether and the reason, etc...

 

but this is at SotG website... not here... You are welcome to go to that site and raise concerns over what is at HIS Site.

 

A page or two back when SotG asked for something to be cleaned up at MPG site... he was told, "why worry about that site here"... and there you go...

[SonOfTheGods]

For being such "morepie immortal bad asses" you guys sure do complain a lot.

You have free Magus of Java pdfs and video-audio of Kosta's books all over your morepie forums.

Hilarious with your double standard / double speak.

 

I received Jim McMillan's autobiography as a text.

I turned it into a pdf.

 

He is deceased.

I am continuing his legacy.

His words give him the Immortality that MoPai couldn't.

Edited June 29, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[KenBrace]

Tongkosong,

I don't really doubt that you are an Indonesian student and I appreciate you taking the time to reply. If it is ok for me to ask, do you know if the school in China still exists?

 

SOTGs,

Neither I nor MPG have Jim's instructions posted on our forums.

[LeoViridis]

I have said, on many occasions, the 'Westernized version" of the MoPai is faulty.Just by having a western-mindframe/upbringing -negates the central foundation of MoPai core teachings- spiritism, and the various virtues- humbleness, patience.

The ONLY place to continue onward with Jim McMillan's western MoPai teachings was with MorePieGuy.

MorePieGuy "learned" through Telephone/Email (non-physical contact correspondance course)-from Jim McMillan.

If you want to learn more about who Jim McMillan was- I have a link on my forum page (the same page with the MoPai Levels 1&2) that will provide you with a Free copy of Jim's Autobiography "Seeking the Master of MoPai".

If you read it- you will UNDERSTAND WHERE WESTERN MOPAI WENT WRONG.

 

Since I had the mopaiforumotion forum- I have received MANY emails and PMs DAILY -asking me for MoPai instruction.

 

ALL the Seekers said they DID NOT WANT ANY CONTACT WITH MOREPIEGUY.

They did NOT want him as a "Teacher"

So what to do?

 

I had Jim McMillan's instructions for a long long time.

 

I never ever intended to release them.

But the western mopie clique "over there" is just impossible to deal with.They have zero knowledge of NeiGong.

 

They did not even know MoPai was a Combat Martial Art..

 

 

 

So, on My Forums - I will keep the Western Mopai instructions from Jim McMillan.

 

Practice them at Your Own Risk.

 

However, ALSO on my forums, I also have my Own Techniques that I have devised over the last 40 years.

Joeblast is also a member who has outstanding knowledge and experience.

 

Just between us both- we have MORE experience and hands on knowledge than Jim or Kosta could ever provide.

Bold statement, Indeed.

 

if you want to learn Authentic MoPai- You will need to go to Indonesia.

 

Even if you find John Chang- he is anathema from the Motzu Lineage.

You need their Motzu Bloodline=Ancestors to continue onward because it is a Spiritual Transmission/Guidance/Blessing

John Chang learned most of his knowledge from the infamous 72 level manual- but he also was in Spirit Communication with his Deceased Master.

These are the Insights that westen mopai- Jim included- MISSED.

 

You know you are breaking copyright laws by posting Jim's book "Seeking the Master of Mopai", publically, for free. Do the right thing and at least post the link to amazon where one may get the book legally. It doesn't cost that much, and you don't run the risk of being sued, and you'd do the right thing that way. Jim's lessons may not have copyright claims, because they are private. But his book does, since it's published.

 

Beside that, to my knowledge, MPG never claimed to be a teacher. Your SOTG-MoPai is also faulty, I hope you know that, given that you aren't an indonesian indoor student - all you have, as I've pointed out, is assumptions, thinking that Mo Pai is a martial art. In that interview, Kosta also said the Mo Pai is all about energetics, no?

[dawei]

Neither I nor MPG have Jim's instructions posted on our forums.

 

Is there a difference between having Jim's instructions posted... and posting, "Jim said..." ?

 

Whether one is quoting a book of his, a phone call, an email, a group teaching etc.

[SonOfTheGods]

I have Jim's Amazon link and picture of his book on that thread.

 

My forum is called mopaiforumotion- however, I have posted numerous times my reasons for having a "mopai forum".

 

When people ask me all about MoPai, I DISCOURAGE them, and try to talk them out of it.

 

 

Thus my Logo:

 

 

Why does all this always feel like deja-vu?

[KenBrace]

 

Is there a difference between having Jim's instructions posted... and posting, "Jim said..." ?

 

Whether one is quoting a book of his, a phone call, an email, a group teaching etc.

Well there is a difference between quoting Jim's public book and his private emails.

[LeoViridis]

Then we must conclude that Kosta is Clueless about MoPai and "Magus of Java" is rubbish.

 

Which was my original premise all along

 

No, we don't need to necessarily conclude that. Check the statement again;

 

Kosta's Answer:

 

MoPai neikung is strictly energetics. It was primarily developed for combat after all.

 

Swords were also primarily developed for combat. And swords can be *TOOLS* for combat. But stand alone, swords themselves aren't martial arts - they are tools that can be utilized for martial art. Martial art (at least the kind with swords), on the other hand, can be thought as a system that teaches how swords can be used in combat, in this case. But swords don't need to necessarily ve used for combat. They can also be collector's items or pieces of art.

 

Same goes for Mo Pai and Nei Gong. It can be used in combat, can be utilized to defeat and kill, but it's not a combat art on itself. The same as my sword example.

[KenBrace]

By writing something in a book, it is obvious that it is meant to be public. By sending something in a private email and requiring that it be kept private... well then it is quite obvious that he wanted it to be private.

[dawei]

Well there is a difference between quoting Jim's public book and his private emails.

 

That is the two extremes... I was interested in the gray matter in-between... where does one draw the line... like "Jim told me..." , or "Jim told this other student, etc"... Isn't that private ?

 

I am just saying that people are always throwing other people's words around and the source of where it comes from is not always so easily traced.

[dawei]

By writing something in a book, it is obvious that it is meant to be public. By sending something in a private email and requiring that it be kept private... well then it is quite obvious that he wanted it to be private.

 

But it would seem that JC violated the privacy of the practice... and then anything which was a result of that is violating what MP wanted... But I am hearing many exceptions to this now. It just seems very difficult to draw the line on some issues. But I appreciate your point.

[SonOfTheGods]

The same as my sword example.

 

The same as my Kêrìs example.

 

 

 

The kris (Ngoko Javanese: kêrìs,[1] Krama Javanese: wangkingan,[2]) is a Javanese asymmetrical dagger most strongly associated with the culture of Indonesia or Javanese culture but also popular to Malaysia, Thailand, Brunei and Singapore. It is known as kalis in the southern Philippines. The kris is famous for its distinctive wavy blade, although many have straight blades as well.

A kris can be divided into three parts: bilah (blade), hulu (hilt), and warangka (sheath). These parts of the kris are objects of art, often carved in meticulous detail and made from various materials: metal, precious or rare types of wood, or gold or ivory. A kris's aesthetic value covers the dhapur (the form and design of the blade, with around 150 variants), the pamor (the pattern of metal alloy decoration on the blade, with around 60 variants), and tangguh referring to the age and origin of a kris.[3] Depending on the quality and historical value of the kris, it can fetch thousands of dollars or even more.

Both a weapon and spiritual object, kris are often considered to have an essence or presence, considered to possess magical powers, with some blades possessing good luck and others possessing bad.[3] Kris are used for display, as talismans with magical powers, weapons, a sanctified heirloom (pusaka), auxiliary equipment for court soldiers, an accessory for ceremonial dress, an indicator of social status, a symbol of heroism, etc.[3] Legendary kris that possess supernatural power and extraordinary ability were mentioned in traditional folktales, such as those of Mpu Gandring, Taming Sari, and Setan Kober. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

 

So- TELL ME AGAIN- how MAGICK has NOTHING to do with MoPai

 

You know there is a WHOLE CHAPTER in Magus of Java about them, right?

 

SORCERY

 

Like I said- and you said to the contrary

 

Clueless about MoPai and all things related to NeiGong- as I said you are

[LeoViridis]

Ken, yes, John Chang wanted non-Chinese to know more about Neigong because neigong allows us, human beings, to be more than who most of us are. He wanted to share this knowledge, but, he was reminded of his oath to Mo Pai's rule (an ancient rule, not made recently as some might think). Thus, he stopped all teachings. When Jim started to teach others, he did so without John Chang's permission. How I know? I asked John Chang himself and there were correspondences between John Chang's son and Jim discussing this issue. You may doubt my identity as a Mo Pai student, but, I have been a Tao Bum member more than five years, and throughout that time, I have corresponded with many Tao Bum members in regards to Mo Pai. If anything I have stated been untrue, please take this time to refute me.

 

I understand your frustration, Ken, and many of your fellow practitioners. Many of us in Mo Pai understand this, however, we, as students of the Mo Pai lineage, are bound to our oath to the Mo Pai's rules and regulations. There is nothing we can do. If John Chang, himself, can't go against the rules, how can we as students do so? If so, how can Jim has John Chang's blessings to teach.

 

Ken, no one can force you to stop doing what you do. Believe me, I have tried telling many people the dangers of practicing Neigong techniques improperly and without the guidance of a proper teacher from that system, and most still continued their training. There are a few (I won't mention their names) who suffered some "side affects" from improperly practicing these techniques. Even those still continued training. My advice to you is to find a neigong system that will accept you as students and has teachers who will guide you in your training. I am sure there are some. I apologize if this is not the answer you seek. Believe me, there are many people just like you, some even moved to Indonesia, but we have to honor and abide to our lineage and rules. If you can't accept this, then forgive our hardheadedness because we are nothing if we live without honor and obedience to our ancestors.

 

To Leo, I'm sorry for not understanding your statement as follows: "The techniques may be lacking, but then, do you fully salute what you deem as improper techniques, posted as MoPai?"

 

I wish you all safe training.

 

Tongkosong, thanks for your reply.

 

I fully understand, you cannot break the rules of the school. I also don't doubt you are a student of the MoPai school.

 

What I asked was, when you said that Jim's instructions are improper, are you OK with them being posted as "real MoPai"? Being an indoor student yourself, are you OK with everything that was posted in this thread, being posted as "real MoPai"? This was my question, as you seem to disagree with the lessons Jim gave.