How does "energy" fit into your practice

[Kajenx]

I put energy in scare quotes because I'd like to use the term loosely. Maybe I'm wrong and will offend a bunch of people, but chi, kundalini, jhanic piti, and new age "energy" all seem to be talking about the same manifestations. If you don't think so, maybe pointing out the difference would be helpful - I may be woefully ignorant here.

 

I'm actually really interested in how this fits into cultivation, though. I've seen a lot of tingling energetic feelings and strange heat/pressure phenomena over the course of the last few months. I know some people aim for this directly for various reasons, but I'd like to know how people see it supporting their quest for mental development. Maybe you even see it as the same thing?

 

I haven't tried to develop the energy sensations directly, and tend to see them more as an unexpected side effect. My thinking has been that perhaps meditation is a kind of complete nervous system development, and as the mind works through various states, different nerve centers in the body are activated or changed. I've always been very focused on how and why my emotions manifest, and I've noticed the dan-tiens seem to be plotted out to the major emotional centers. When I was doing a lot of concentration meditation, I also noticed a lot of sensations at the chakra points that could be called blockages or pressures. I'm pretty materialistic/scientific in my thinking, but there's obviously something happening in these areas. I'm just not quite sure they correspond how a lot of the literature says. (I sometimes get a tight feeling in the throat, but I couldn't identify any communication problems - that seems more like a superficial correlation.)

 

I also had an "arrow through the head" type feeling a number of times when big changes were happening. It was just like this diagram, haha: http://www.ichikung.com/assets/images/IHC_UpperDT.jpg

 

So, wherever this thread goes is fine. I'm just generally interested in the subject because it seems like it's becoming increasingly more relevant for me personally.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Kajenx

[doc benway]

Energy is very relevant to me as well.

In fact, it is what I is.

We are all manifestations of energy - our physical being, our movement, everything we see hear, taste, feel, and think...

What I find really curious is how many people completely take for granted all of that and focus on energy as some magical something or other that is separate from all of that. A tingling they can move around an orbit or a spark that can ignite some paper.

All of manifestation is simply energy and our experience of it is a simple consequence of our biological sensory apparatus.

Different apparatus or tuning, different experience, same energy...

I think that a lot of the various energy methods help us to tune our sensory apparatus in a way such that we're able to experience different aspects of the energetic milieu around us.

[soaring crane]

I don't personally like the word energy, probably because of the new-age-iness associated with it. I also wouldn't lump qi in with all the other descriptors.

 

One example (out of many) of how Qi enters my dynamic practice - I expand my LDT and push my arms outward with the big ball of qi that develops there, and can rest my hands on top of it, anywhere from chest height to above my head, with extremely little muscular force. If I do feel my shoulders getting tense, it means my thoughts have wandered and all I have to do is intently exhale out of the LDT area to pump the ball back up.

 

This is a prep exercise to guiding my limbs through qigong movements through qi-breath instead of muscle force. Qi is flow; it's the transformation of spirit to structure, and back again.

Edited June 17, 2014 by soaring crane

[ChiDragon]

Energy is the final product or end result of my practice. Energy does not enter my body but only more source of energy enters my body during practice. The energy was generated within the body by chemical reaction during cell respiration. Cell respiration accelerate the rate of metabolism to produce more body energy than normal. The "energy" in the OP was referred is the extra energy that was generated than normal within the body.

Edited June 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I see working with the chi side of things as auxiliary to my mental development. The mind and body are connected, so I think working with both is the fastest way to go, but, ultimately, it's the mind that is either deluded or enlightened, so that's the priority. Mind development alone is enough, but it's slower.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Seeker of Tao

[Spotless]

Energy is very relevant to me as well.

In fact, it is what I is.

We are all manifestations of energy - our physical being, our movement, everything we see hear, taste, feel, and think...

What I find really curious is how many people completely take for granted all of that and focus on energy as some magical something or other that is separate from all of that. A tingling they can move around an orbit or a spark that can ignite some paper.

All of manifestation is simply energy and our experience of it is a simple consequence of our biological sensory apparatus.

Different apparatus or tuning, different experience, same energy...

I think that a lot of the various energy methods help us to tune our sensory apparatus in a way such that we're able to experience different aspects of the energetic milieu around us.

 

This matter of fact approach is enticing but can also be pretty limiting as it tends to create the impression that one knows something:

 

Saying "all manifestation is simply energy" is true but it has a very different tone if you say "all manifestation is energy".

Also, the statement that "our experience of it is a simple consequence of our biological sensory apparatus" is a bit presumptive.

You know this to be true?

Have you ever been completely outside of your body and fully aware?

Is your 3rd eye open?

 

Is seeing something with the 3rd eye of the biological sensory apparatus?

How about seeing something during the day while you are completely out of your body fully conscious while your body is wide awake ? When you are seeing with extreme clarity but not in your body and not in your 3rd eye or head or biological sensory apparatus?

 

With regard to the original post:

One answer could be "it's all like water" - whether its tea or coffee or lemonade - 99% of it is water.

 

But one could also say: tea and coffee and lemonade are simply not the same thing no matter how close they may seem.

Monkeys and Mankind are just a gene or two away from being the same but we are not the same.

 

Qi as cultivated in Qi gong has a very different feel from kundalini and it has a very different speed and color.

 

Earth energy

Cosmic energy

Meridian energy

Auric energy

Male

Female

Neutral

Emotional tones

Animal tones

Transmedium energy

Telepathic

Pulses

Breath

Wetness

Dryness

Heat

Cold

Vortex

 

Lots of different energies - I think you can argue with or against the water argument and be correct in both.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kajenx]

That's a good point. Steve, I understand what you're saying, but I'm mainly referring to the sensations specifically. I'm not sure it's correct to assume the two correlate. Soaring Crane talks about physically resting on a ball of Qi. If it were energy in the cosmic sense, you might assume it could be used to push things around or it would make a print in the dirt as you put weight on it. Or even that you could sit on top of it. Maybe it's better to look at it as a way of allowing the mind to work with the muscles more efficiently, or a way to allow the nervous system to take more stress. Or do you guys see it as a physical "thing"? Maybe the what isn't as important as the why and how in the end, though.

[soaring crane]

That's a good point. Steve, I understand what you're saying, but I'm mainly referring to the sensations specifically. I'm not sure it's correct to assume the two correlate. Soaring Crane talks about physically resting on a ball of Qi. If it were energy in the cosmic sense, you might assume it could be used to push things around or it would make a print in the dirt as you put weight on it. Or even that you could sit on top of it. Maybe it's better to look at it as a way of allowing the mind to work with the muscles more efficiently, or a way to allow the nervous system to take more stress. Or do you guys see it as a physical "thing"? Maybe the what isn't as important as the why and how in the end, though.

Your last sentence there. Remove the 'maybe' and welcome to my world :-)

[doc benway]

This matter of fact approach is enticing but can also be pretty limiting as it tends to create the impression that one knows something: Saying "all manifestation is simply energy" is true but it has a very different tone if you say "all manifestation is energy". Also, the statement that "our experience of it is a simple consequence of our biological sensory apparatus" is a bit presumptive. You know this to be true? Have you ever been completely outside of your body and fully aware? Is your 3rd eye open? Is seeing something with the 3rd eye of the biological sensory apparatus? How about seeing something during the day while you are completely out of your body fully conscious while your body is wide awake ? When you are seeing with extreme clarity but not in your body and not in your 3rd eye or head or biological sensory apparatus?

 

It is only limiting if we think we know something, as you say. I did not say intend to imply that at all. That is a common misconception and is at the heart of the intention of my post. We simply take for granted that we know and file that away and assume its independent of everything else that we focus on in our spiritual and metaphysical games. And in each of the experiences that you reference, do you know it to be true that they are independent of your personal biological apparatus and neuronal activity? Can you prove that or is it an assumption based on the content or character of each of these experiences you mention? Either assertion, that our sphere of experience is linked to our biology or that it is not, is equally presumptuous although from the relative reality we inhabit, your implication is a bit more gratuitous.

 

Edited to add- And to be clear, my concept of what's going on is constantly changing and adapting to new information and experience, I don't mean to be as dogmatic as I may have sounded... I really don't know the hell what is going on but I would rather know or not know than believe... I'm just making a plea for us to pay attention to the magic that is right in front of our noses rather than get too distracted by the creation of our thoughts and ideas of what may be.

 

 

 

With regard to the original post: One answer could be "it's all like water" - whether its tea or coffee or lemonade - 99% of it is water. But one could also say: tea and coffee and lemonade are simply not the same thing no matter how close they may seem. Monkeys and Mankind are just a gene or two away from being the same but we are not the same. Qi as cultivated in Qi gong has a very different feel from kundalini and it has a very different speed and color. Earth energy Cosmic energy Meridian energy Auric energy Male Female Neutral Emotional tones Animal tones Transmedium energy Telepathic Pulses Breath Wetness Dryness Heat Cold Vortex Lots of different energies - I think you can argue with or against the water argument and be correct in both.

Edited June 17, 2014 by steve

[Ya Mu]

... I'm just making a plea for us to pay attention to the magic that is right in front of our noses rather than get too distracted by the creation of our thoughts and ideas of what may be.

Right on!

[doc benway]

That's a good point. Steve, I understand what you're saying, but I'm mainly referring to the sensations specifically. I'm not sure it's correct to assume the two correlate. Soaring Crane talks about physically resting on a ball of Qi. If it were energy in the cosmic sense, you might assume it could be used to push things around or it would make a print in the dirt as you put weight on it. Or even that you could sit on top of it. Maybe it's better to look at it as a way of allowing the mind to work with the muscles more efficiently, or a way to allow the nervous system to take more stress. Or do you guys see it as a physical "thing"? Maybe the what isn't as important as the why and how in the end, though.

 

Not sure that the why or how matter much either...

 

[gatito]

@ Kajenx

 

Bodywork is essential

 

One of the places that what you're asking about is detailed is in the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra (Lakshman Joo translation). It needs to be taught, in person, by an adept though partly for the same reasons that you wouldn't expect to learn to dance by reading a book.

 

Bit more information here (and, incidentally, you don't need to be able to sit in full lotus or even cross-legged on the floor in order to practice - nor do you need to believe in energy bodies because you will explore the sensations directly so it doesn't matter what labels you choose to use).

 

http://www.kashmiryoga.nl/en/kashmiryoga_en.isp

://www.kashmiryoga.nl/en/kashmiryoga_en.isp

 

The principles can be applied to things like tai chi and eight brocades if you've integrated the transmission.

[soaring crane]

Not sure that the why or how matter much either...

 

 

The how for sure, for me. The why is a toss-up

[joeblast]

Energy is the final product or end result of my practice. Energy does not enter my body but only more source of energy enters my body during practice. The energy was generated within the body by chemical reaction during cell respiration. Cell respiration accelerate the rate of metabolism to produce more body energy than normal. The "energy" in the OP was referred is the extra energy that was generated than normal within the body.

you forgot the S in JQS

 

and its not J>Q>S

 

its J<>Q<>S

 

is qi really the be all end all of your practice?

[thelerner]

How does energy fit into my practice..

Of late, not so much. The last year or two I've been working on emptiness mostly. But then nothing is really empty, just layers, like an ogre .

[balance.]

Developing "energy" in practice is the development of potential. Potential finds application/expression with intention. Potential + (proper) Intention is dramatic growth/transformation. Certain practices develop potential/energy more quickly than others---- this allows for rapid-growth/shifting/changing.

 

 

all the best.

 

 

 

balance.

 

 

**I don't understand the development of potential/energy simply for the sake of developing more potential/energy.

Edited June 17, 2014 by balance.

[GrandmasterP]

Back in school the Physics teacher told us in lesson one that 'energy can neither be created nor destroyed'.

That said it all for Physics as far as I was concerned so I left it at that and didn't bother the teacher much nor he me for the next few years until they let us choose to drop science, which I did.

I do think that different paths use different labels and sometimes those labels might be describing the thing.

Yoga players ( for one example) use different 'language' to QiGong cultivators but by and large both are doing very similar stuff to much the same ends.

Edited June 17, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ChiDragon]

Back in school the Physics teacher told us in lesson one that 'energy can neither be created nor destroyed'.

 

.......Nor it can be stored anywhere.

[dawei]

This is an important topic... I had too many thoughts at the same time arising... so I'll just post a few thoughts and maybe drill down in later posts:

 

I put energy in scare quotes because I'd like to use the term loosely. Maybe I'm wrong and will offend a bunch of people, but chi, kundalini, jhanic piti, and new age "energy" all seem to be talking about the same manifestations. If you don't think so, maybe pointing out the difference would be helpful - I may be woefully ignorant here.

 

I agree with where you are coming from: "Energy" is a mult-verse of cultural terms, explanations, and practices... All lead to one universal energy.

 

I'm actually really interested in how this fits into cultivation, though. I've seen a lot of tingling energetic feelings and strange heat/pressure phenomena over the course of the last few months. I know some people aim for this directly for various reasons, but I'd like to know how people see it supporting their quest for mental development. Maybe you even see it as the same thing?

 

Speaking of multi... if you view existence as concentric 3-D circles... it may be inner to outer as:

 

Potential Energy/Pregnant Void > Matter/Energy > Manifestation > Heaven/Earth/Man > TTB

 

Mental development? For what purpose? this may be misleading you in your quest and query. Let's go on...

 

I haven't tried to develop the energy sensations directly, and tend to see them more as an unexpected side effect. My thinking has been that perhaps meditation is a kind of complete nervous system development, and as the mind works through various states, different nerve centers in the body are activated or changed. I've always been very focused on how and why my emotions manifest, and I've noticed the dan-tiens seem to be plotted out to the major emotional centers. When I was doing a lot of concentration meditation, I also noticed a lot of sensations at the chakra points that could be called blockages or pressures. I'm pretty materialistic/scientific in my thinking, but there's obviously something happening in these areas. I'm just not quite sure they correspond how a lot of the literature says. (I sometimes get a tight feeling in the throat, but I couldn't identify any communication problems - that seems more like a superficial correlation.)

 

I also had an "arrow through the head" type feeling a number of times when big changes were happening. It was just like this diagram, haha: http://www.ichikung.com/assets/images/IHC_UpperDT.jpg

 

So, wherever this thread goes is fine. I'm just generally interested in the subject because it seems like it's becoming increasingly more relevant for me personally.

 

The above has too many interesting points you make... and your not the first person to over-think the experience

 

Nervous system, energy centers, chakras... yes, yes, yes...

 

Here is my short comment:

You are becoming increasingly aware of your inner sense of energy. Open your awareness to:

- energy IS every one of the 3-D circles; it is all energy.

- you communicate with life using energy.

- energy can be sent, received, exchanged, felt, experienced, seen.

- the mind is a good guide to a certain point but you must depend on the lower dan tian to understand it all... and as that develops, the middle dan tian and upper dan tian will reveal their energy and intention for your life.

 

Here is my recommendation:

- Sink into it. Drop your mind into the lower dan tian... let it disappear and find what appears.

- View the multi-verse energy field you are a part of: you are, second by second, exchanging energy with the outside world. In fact, the outside energy is sustaining you. If you think internal energy is your life, then you are simply lost on your path... which I can tell you are not. Why?

 

You are smart enough to know that your every breath is EXTERNALLY DEPENDENT...

[Brian]

I think "energy" (like capital-L "Light") is a concept and reality more complex than contained in mainstream models but I think the "reality" is generally very closely described by appropriately selected models -- with some limitations and "carve-outs" which suggest more revelations to come.

[Kajenx]

Dawei, could you expain your tips a bit more for me? I've noticed there's an emotional connection to the lower dantein that gives a sense of stability. This seems to be mentioned a lot in japanese mental disciplines (hara), and chinese practices so it seems like a good place to start. When you say to sink the mind down there, is this a deliberate concentration type exercise or a kind of let-be and watch sort of thing? You talk about how we're exchanging energy with the outside world; do you see this manifest in an outward facing awareness? I'm wondering if I'm working with some of these things without realizing it...

[zanshin]

.......Nor it can be stored anywhere.

lots of ways to store energy in physics.

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question247.htm

[ChiDragon]

Yes, energy can be stored but not for long. Eventually, the energy stored in a battery will be discharged. Beside, if we are talking about the energy in the human body. If it has not been used, it will be gone in seconds.

Edited June 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

Nonsense.

[ShinRa]

 

Yes, energy can be stored but not for long. Eventually, the energy stored in a battery will be discharged. Beside, if we are talking about the energy in the human body. If it has not been used, it will be gone in seconds.

So fat and glycogen doesn't count?