The Moral Problem

[manitou]

Yeah.

 

Am I correct in presuming that the current situation defines one single inevitable outcome? This is the only conclusion I can come to at this point. Whether using the thinking process, or extremely refined intuition I feel like the situation must be just as inevitable.

 

And then, is love and compassion not just the unconditional acceptance of every outcome, since nobody can react to a situation other than the way at which they are able to at this time?

 

I feel like morality is part of the system that defines the inevitability. It is not clear to me how one could ever have choice. The progression seems like an interaction between your original nature and external conditions.

 

 

Maybe inevitable in the sense that all causes have merged into the Effect that's happening Now? I agree that love and compassion is the unconditional acceptance of every outcome.

 

Morality is certainly part of the system, I would think. If, as Merrell-Wolff suggests, we strip ourselves down to our original 'loving self' (or God-self?) the causation is going to be quite different than if we were inputting from a place of selfishness and ego. Our causative input up to that point would have been positive, not negative. As we touch and interact with any dynamic with compassion and love as our basis, the dynamic will change of its own accord. Hearts soften around us in response to our own heart, and our energy bodies will elevate the situation without us even being aware that it's happening.

Edited June 20, 2014 by manitou

[manitou]

When we express ourselves, debate and post insightful words, are we still secretly looking for praise unaware? Are we actually still slave to ego?...

 

 

 

Certainly a combination of both! But the forum can be useful for observing our own reactions and seeing how much ego we still have to contend with. As it says in the TTC, 'what is to be deflated must first be inflated'. This forum constantly kicks off inner work for me - and shows me that the flames of ego are still there to do battle with. The 'true' Jihad.

Edited June 20, 2014 by manitou

[skydog]

my fucking ego

Edited June 20, 2014 by skydog

[skydog]

ego

Edited June 20, 2014 by skydog

[skydog]

 

.

Edited June 20, 2014 by skydog

[i am]

It's like thetaoiseasy wrote, somewhere. What are compassion and love and "doing right", but descriptions of the unknowable, unnamable source (or even descriptions of descriptions)? If you're in tune with the source, these things happen naturally, without any effort.

 

I've been completely avoiding this forum for quite a while and I agree...this is one of those threads that keep me around.

 

Thanks.

 

And I JUST read that Chapter from Castaneda last night.

 

On a side note I think that a thread on the comparison...similarities, differences and compatibility of those book's teachings with practicing a Tao-like existence like I do would be pretty fun.

[manitou]

Another excerpt jumped out at me from the same book. My apologies for its length - 3 paragraphs. But it does go to the Awakening.

 

 

"The Transition to the Awakened Consciousness is a Copernican change which not only transforms the essential level of the individual involved, but alters his whole relationship to the subject-object world as well. When Copernicus demonstrated the superior power unfolded by regarding the sun, rather than the earth, as the center of the solar system (emphasis mine) the world was not destroyed as an empiric fact, but its relationship and significance within the whole was radically changed. This transformation, while affecting astronomy most immediately, produced secondary effects with ramifications reaching far into different phases of social life. This change has brought enormous clarification with respect to many vitally important problems that had formerly been quite obscure. The Awakening involves such a change, only in a much more radical sense. When It has come, the whole life of the individual is affected, and part of the effect is a profound clarification and simplification of a vast number of obscurities. So much is this the case that if the Awakened Man chooses to direct His force within the subject-object field, then in whatever compartment He may focus His attention He has superior capacity as comparedc to others who have not the advantage of His perspective. He now looks down on things in their relationships, rather than being involved in those relationships. The highest excellence in government, business, engineering, science, religion, art, etc., are at His command, restricted only by the limitations of his personal vehicle. But before a man can operate upon relationships from Above, he must first break his bondage within those relationships, and in part this is represented by unlearning what has been previously learned.

 

It does not follow that all previously acquired knowledge will be found false. To a greater or lesser extent, the Realized Man may still be able to judge it correct. its Significance, however, will be radically changed, and He will be enabled to tie together parts that formerly had seemed irreconcilable. He stands outside and above the "game," as it were, and so is enabled to play with a master's hand.

 

Even though from the highest standpoint relative or subject-object knowledcge has been completely Transcended and no longer affords a field of function, it does not therefore follow that it has not served a useful purpose in its time. Man builds a certain integration while in the subject-object field without which Recognition, as a self-conscious achievement, is impossible. The training in subject-object knowledge serves something of the function of a scaffold in the construction of a building. When the building is ready, the scaffolding may be and should be abandoned, for it ceases to be, in general, any longer valuable. The man may now enter the building which, in this case, represents the Transcendent or Cosmic Consciousness. However, a scaffolding should not be wrecked while workmen are still standing upon it. So the Compassionate Man who has found the Building to be ready and then enters into It will also leave the scaffold standing until all others have likewise left it and Entered In.

 

 

 

I really like the part about Copernicus' realization that the Sun was the center of the solar system. What a great metaphor. But it seems to work two ways. On one hand, he is inferring that WE are the microcosm to the macrocosm. But the other inference is that once the Consciousness is had, that all is One because we must also infer that not only are we the I AM, but also the person standing next to you (although perhaps not in consciousness). To look into the eyes of another, be it Man or Animal, is to look into the eyes of 'God'. To stay in this consciousness, to understand the I AM of everybody (and everything), is a huge modification of our normal way of seeing things.

 

When he says 'Before a man can operate upon relationships from Above, he must first break his bondage within those relationships, and in part this is represented by unlearning what has been previously learned.' This is something I know a little about. My default setting is to get into terribly co-dependent relationships with people, but knowing that about myself, I can act to the opposite willfully. This I must do every day of my life. Joe and I are both recovering alkies, and as such, have spent over 30 years trying to get this right. Early in our relationship, I was in bondage to his drinking - only I put myself there because a) at that time he was pathetic and easy to CONTROL, and because I was constantly walking on eggshells when he wasn't drunk, because I was afraid that if he got mad about something he would get drunk. This is what us co-dependents do. (Many years of Alanon have helped me a lot with this).

 

And yet this push-pull was the very thing that attracted me. My contorted insides from the patterns of my youth spelled this out for me in just about every relationship I've ever been in. It wasn't until I searched within and pinned down my own patterns and their onset, that I was able to begin to make a change with this. And the funny thing was, when I stopped trying to 'control' his moods and drinking, the darned guy got sober! And he's been so for 25 years, lol.

 

So now....if he gets mad, so what? Sometimes I can find myself falling back into the pattern unwittingly, but it makes itself apparent pretty quickly. At that time, I will usually ask myself "What would you be doing if he wasn't sitting there?", and then I'll go do it, just disregarding him and his mood completely. It took me years to learn to "stay in my own lane".

 

But I'm pretty sure this is what the author is saying about the bondage of relationships. Doesn't mean not to have them. It just means don't fall into bondage within them - and this is something totally within our control.

Edited June 20, 2014 by manitou

[GrandmasterP]

Brilliantly insightful and searingly honest post Manitou.

I'm on the fence with 'Awakened' as a catch- all term but if ever a post was awakened to the actualities of relationships then it yours there.

Kudos again!

[skydog]

I logged back in to say

 

I think Morality can be a very blocking thing

 

I posted the styles P thing

 

Because clearly hes talking about his emotions of hate, his sadness, how he feels so much pain he wants to kill the world, periods where hes not friendly etc etc

 

But I like his rap

 

I feel like I can relate to his pain

 

He shows real honesty

 

like extreme honesty

 

He also shows great acceptance of his "lower self"

 

Imagine if he thought that by being "humble" or being "kind" it makes him a better person

 

That would ruin his flow, his nature, his gifts

 

In the same way

 

By nature Im not really that humble

 

Im not that peaceful

 

I try to be as much as possible

 

But if someone attacks me

 

Then I am likely to defend myself and attack them

 

But isnt a warrior actually a benefit to a society to the world too

 

Isnt trying to be humble bad if your an artist "actually I get this message quite a lot"

 

Maybe there are periods to focus on raising ones energy and purity

 

and maybe its unnatural to not try to express your views on that too

 

But some people cant really listen to the soul

 

They cant hear it

 

If I say

 

I follow my soul

 

In a way Im probably gloating and offending them because I can do something they cant

 

Nearly every action can be looked at like that

 

Causing harm

 

But people do their best anyways just raising the knowledge they have and being aware of certain things

[GrandmasterP]

Maybe wrong to generalise but in my experience such as it is folks who cultivate some form either internally or externally are generally really nice folks who would do anyone a good turn before ever they would do anyone a bad turn.

There's a MMA dojo in Leicester and most of the dudes down there look like they would bite the heads off whippets for fun but they raise so much money every year for kids' charities.

Hardly a week goes past when they are not doing some gig or other to raise money for a good cause.

We can't know what's going on on the inside with anyone else but when you look at the 'fruits' then you can soon tell if those are good fruits or not.

Edited June 20, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[skydog]

In the same way One "practice" I do which is not really a practice

 

Is when I notice pain I go for a walk

 

and observe what anger I have had that day

 

I observe who Ive been projecting towards

 

I make a mantra out of accepting and finding behaviours perfect and acceptable that I have denied in myself and others

 

This is actually much more freeing for my energy and shen than many things and doesnt mean I am condoning behaviours

[manitou]

Brilliantly insightful and searingly honest post Manitou. I'm on the fence with 'Awakened' as a catch- all term but if ever a post was awakened to the actualities of relationships then it yours there. Kudos again!

That's beautiful, Grandmaster P. Thank you for your sentiment and, in fact, the entire body of your posts.

[skydog]

lion said bare be more like an eagle, eagles are great and fly in the sky but what about pie, it doesnt kill anyone

Edited June 21, 2014 by skydog

[Silent Answers]

lion said bare be more like an eagle, eagles are great and fly in the sky but what about pie, it doesnt kill anyone

The answer is: let the eagle soar

[skydog]

heart shaped morality philosophies closed and opened at the same time as each other when the nature of man wanted harmony

Edited June 21, 2014 by skydog

[skydog]

i like gibberish

Edited June 21, 2014 by skydog

[GrandmasterP]

BBC Radio 1

That sounds like gibberish to me.

[skydog]

.

Edited June 24, 2014 by skydog

[YawningMind]

It's as though there is a tent pole that is always grounded in Love

 

That is a very odd analogy - usually tent poles are used as a metaphor for an entirely different kind of love ("pitching a tent").

[hagar]

Great thread, and imporant.

 

Since I am doing a PhD on Ethics and morality these days, I can with great confidence say that both are inherently instrumental, and have nothing to do with truth per se. Actually, as I dwell into how ethics might be applied to the field (biotechnology) that I am currently researching, I see that ethics and morality as a concept and as a tool might be a hindrance, more than a solution.

 

That said, having had many so-called "awakening-ish" experiences, the experience of truth totally derailed my life. It completely messed everything up, and kicked me in the balls.

 

Morality is a good beacon for a more harmonious earth in the best case, but inherent goodness is not good, and might prove even destructive.

 

I broke my back on a mountain (no pun intended) and the mountain did not care. I realized that the notion of right action is situated, and contingent, and that the illusion of separateness dissolves right and wrong. After a while though, and when I became a father, I also realized that there is such a vast difference in our intent. As individuals.

 

That said, my breaking my back turned me towards truth. But it did not make me a better person.

 

I don´t even know if this has anything with what Manitou was intending with this thread.

 

h

[C T]

Maybe in acute situations when one is forced to merge with the truth, as in Hagar's broken back episode, they come face to face looking eye to eye with the their true nature, and i know for a fact that that sparkling essence is neither good nor bad, cannot be made better, neither is it lacking anything, so why does one expect the meeting of truth to make one a better person? Better is a relative term. The waning of neurosis does not actually make one better... it makes one more sane, as if lighter and freer. Whether this is better or not would almost entirely depend on how ready the recipient is.

[manitou]

Great thread, and imporant.

 

Since I am doing a PhD on Ethics and morality these days, I can with great confidence say that both are inherently instrumental, and have nothing to do with truth per se. Actually, as I dwell into how ethics might be applied to the field (biotechnology) that I am currently researching, I see that ethics and morality as a concept and as a tool might be a hindrance, more than a solution.

 

That said, having had many so-called "awakening-ish" experiences, the experience of truth totally derailed my life. It completely messed everything up, and kicked me in the balls.

 

Morality is a good beacon for a more harmonious earth in the best case, but inherent goodness is not good, and might prove even destructive.

 

I broke my back on a mountain (no pun intended) and the mountain did not care. I realized that the notion of right action is situated, and contingent, and that the illusion of separateness dissolves right and wrong. After a while though, and when I became a father, I also realized that there is such a vast difference in our intent. As individuals.

 

That said, my breaking my back turned me towards truth. But it did not make me a better person.

 

I don´t even know if this has anything with what Manitou was intending with this thread.

 

h

 

My threads tend to go everywhere, so don't even worry about it

 

I think that what Merrill-Wolff was emphasizing was the inner development (which he refers to as 'the moral problem'. I think he refers to it as a 'problem' because nobody really wants to do it. Nobody wants to think they have character flaws and have to do anything about them.) This is human nature.

 

But the type of enlightenment he speaks of, in his experience, is one which does involve inner morality - not in the sense of 'Following the Bible, or the Baghavad Gita, or any tome. It's in clarifying the inner lens through opening the heart, and I'm not sure that's something that would be covered in a PhD on Ethics. That sounds like something of a left brain construct - as it necessarily must be! But Merrill-Wolff was referring more to inner impeccability, I do believe - which is the other half of his Awakening.

[hagar]

My threads tend to go everywhere, so don't even worry about it

 

I think that what Merrill-Wolff was emphasizing was the inner development (which he refers to as 'the moral problem'. I think he refers to it as a 'problem' because nobody really wants to do it. Nobody wants to think they have character flaws and have to do anything about them.) This is human nature.

 

But the type of enlightenment he speaks of, in his experience, is one which does involve inner morality - not in the sense of 'Following the Bible, or the Baghavad Gita, or any tome. It's in clarifying the inner lens through opening the heart, and I'm not sure that's something that would be covered in a PhD on Ethics. That sounds like something of a left brain construct - as it necessarily must be! But Merrill-Wolff was referring more to inner impeccability, I do believe - which is the other half of his Awakening.

In total agreement.

This is something similar to "Te" in Lao Tse. Inherent virtue that is just an expression of this "impeccability".

 

h