Words of My Perfect Teacher

[Tibetan_Ice]

I've been reading the book called Words of My Perfect Teacher and I'm trying hard not to just drop all Buddhism totally.

The parts that have done it for me are the stories about how the Tibetan kings and people are so selfless that they cut pieces of their body off in order to feed, heal or sustain the sick, the hungry and the needy. I mean, come on.

 

One king cuts off part of his leg because he is so selfless and his flesh was requested of him (by a trickster). After the unselfish act he is is then healed up once again, but really! Another king, kills himself by jumping off a cliff so that he can reincarnate as a special kind of fish so that he can feed the sick people in his kingdom and cure them of a type of plague. Are these just fairy tales?

 

Who is so unselfish that they go around cutting parts off from their body for others? And if one did that in the modern world, who is going to come around and heal the body back up afterwards?

 

To me, these stories are extreme, so extreme that they are unbelievable. It makes me wonder if it was the tradition to make up stories that were so shocking just for effect. Makes me wonder what one can believe in Buddhism.

 

.??.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[Silent Answers]

I think stories like these serve 2 purposes...to get a point across to the entry level Buddhist and to test the faith of the more experienced.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Of course they're made up. You'd have to be mentally retarded to believe such stories - but that's not the point. Fables and fairy tales tend to be extreme across all cultures, Goldilocks didn't really deserve to be eaten and the original Cinderella story was a real river of blood. This shocking people to ram a point home thing is far from being just a Tibetan Buddhist thing. It's universal because it works and it's less boring, and especially useful when it comes to remembering an oral teaching.

 

What can be believed in Buddhism is the practice and its effects. Strip away all the Asian cultural artifacts on the surface.

 

You know from your own experience, TI, that shamatha is a legit thing. Is it such an extrapolation that the realisations attainable through the union of shamatha and vipashyana may also be legit? I think it's a reasonable working hypothesis.

[RiverSnake]

I am not a Buddhist...but the more I cultivate the more I see the depth and practicality of Buddhist methodology. I question whether such stories/myths even matter that much. 8 Fold Paths and the 4 a Noble truths seem to be the most valuable and substantive of the tradition. The directness, pragmatism and mental acuity behind the doctrine is continually apparent to me.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited June 20, 2014 by OldChi

[Jetsun]

Words of My Perfect Teacher is meant to be one of the classic Tibetan texts in that it contains a large proportion of the basis of the Tibetan teachings collected together in one place. I don't remember many fantastical teachings in it myself, although it is a while since I read it, and thought it was quite practical in many ways, there is the section on Chod though which has offerings of your own body to spirits and beings but that is done on the mind or spirit level not on the physical.

 

Also when I read it I found there was a certain transmission in it, in that when I read the first page I felt a swell of compassion that it almost brought me to tears, perhaps that was just coincidence, but it has been regarded as an important text by many dedicated practitioners that there might be an energy built up behind it if not a direct transmission from Patrul Rinpoche.

[idiot_stimpy]

People get in trouble when they take these stories literally.

[doc benway]

I've been reading the book called Words of My Perfect Teacher and I'm trying hard not to just drop all Buddhism totally.

The parts that have done it for me are the stories about how the Tibetan kings and people are so selfless that they cut pieces of their body off in order to feed, heal or sustain the sick, the hungry and the needy. I mean, come on.

 

One king cuts off part of his leg because he is so selfless and his flesh was requested of him (by a trickster). After the unselfish act he is is then healed up once again, but really! Another king, kills himself by jumping off a cliff so that he can reincarnate as a special kind of fish so that he can feed the sick people in his kingdom and cure them of a type of plague. Are these just fairy tales?

 

Who is so unselfish that they go around cutting parts off from their body for others? And if one did that in the modern world, who is going to come around and heal the body back up afterwards?

 

To me, these stories are extreme, so extreme that they are unbelievable. It makes me wonder if it was the tradition to make up stories that were so shocking just for effect. Makes me wonder what one can believe in Buddhism.

 

.??.

 

There is a strong current of sacrifice in Buddhism - it is the foundation of the Mahayana.

Chöd - the ritual of offering oneself (literally - cutting) is a tantric practice of transformation through sacrificing one's body and is found in India and Tibet.

It is designed to expose the practitioner to extreme fear, an effective way to help us let go of attachment and aversion and find certainty in selflessness.

While the stories may be shocking and extreme, there are many instances in all cultures of people sacrificing their health, wealth, bodily organs, and even their life for others - it happens every day.

It is up to you as to whether you think it is important to take such stories literally or as allegory.

What counts is that the practices are extremely effective... for some people, certainly not for everyone.

In my view, there is no need for belief in Buddhism.

It is preferable, IMO, to know what can be known, and accept not knowing in place of belief.

In this way we can work with the practices and develop real certainty.

When belief comes into the picture, there is much less stability because there is no real certainty.

Edited June 20, 2014 by steve

[Jetsun]

If you want to read something which really challenges whether such stories can ever be taken literally or not read "Blazing Splendor - The memoirs of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche". In it there are all sorts of stories such as people taking zombies for a walk, having a conversation with embodied evil spirits and all sorts of miracles and the author makes it clear that he is talking literally and isn't meant as an allegory for anything, and he is regarded as one of the most respected masters of recent times. It can challenge your perception of what "reality" really is, in the sense that reality is often just what group consciousness believe is possible, which can shift quite easily.

[idiot_stimpy]

For me its not so much about the act of being selfless, but the state of mind one has to be in in order to carry out that act. Stories seem to help plug into that state of mind.

[C T]

I had enquired into this with a teacher before, and he said two of the main reasons for some of these seemingly phantasmagoric tales is to 'test' a student's resolve and reaction, from which a teacher can detect tell-tale signs as to how genuine the student is. One cannot practice guru yoga and at the same time doubt a teacher's words. So, some teachers relate such far-fetched tales (mixed with some truthful ones) to gauge subtle reactive energies from the student(s) to see if they will become easily distracted, or maybe start ridiculing the teacher, or belittling the teachings etc.

 

Secondly, its to help expand the mind, to keep it pliable, so that if death were to occur without warning, where the mind suddenly becomes unrestrained, it will not be subject to confusion and bewilderment, which could lead to rebirth in the lower realms. By inculcating a sort of familiarity with the probable scenarios which will likely take place in the bardos, the student learns to prepare for all sorts of eventualities and not get swayed or tricked by what occurs there during the transitional phase.

[Apech]

If you read texts like the lives of the great Tibetan yogis and mahasiddhas and so on they are all a mixture of historical record and strange tales that seem fantastical. Actually the same is true in the lives of Christian Saints they are a mixture of myth and history. I think this is a universal way in which people express themselves in subjects like this. On the one hand the writer is appealing to our prosaic side telling us dates of birth, parents names, where they lived and studied - but then when they try to write about the mystical content of the lives of those great practitioners it gets a little tricky. they have to illustrate a point with a vivid tale. You can't say one is true and the other isn't but you might say one is literally true and the other carries the truth of an inner realisation.

[doc benway]

Great posts everyone - thank you for that.

A simple example of an outrageous concept in Tibetan Buddhism is the rainbow body.

That's no less difficult to assimilate than chopping off an arm or two to feed a demon.

 

I think there is a way to approach such challenging stories, at least for me, which doesn't become credulous and yet also doesn't exclude the possibility that there are things beyond what I can currently accept. Accepting everything the teacher says on faith is certainly not a healthy approach and was not advocated by the Buddhas, or my teacher. On the other hand, we can remain open and actively look for ways to relate to things that seem outrageous and sometimes we find that there is something there that touches us or changes us and we see things differently. Suddenly what seemed ridiculous or outlandish becomes real in a way we didn't expect. Not sure I'm making much sense but I've had this experience...

[mewtwo]

read it, I always thought of that stuff more as a meditation. like meditating on what happens when you die. What your funeral will be like who will be there what will the cremation chamber look like etc etc.

 

so meditations on chopping up your body and feeding the hungry ghosts and such is plausible.

 

 

moo

[GrandmasterP]

Anyone who calls their teacher 'perfect' hasn't learnt very much.

Yet.

Edited June 22, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[doc benway]

Anyone who calls their teacher 'perfect' hasn't learnt very much.

Yet.

I'll disagree with you here GM.

I suspect he uses the title on several levels.

This is Dzogchen - all is spontaneously perfected and primordially pure.

His teacher is Samantabhadra.

His guru represents the entire lineage as a manifestation of this.

"Perfect teacher" is also a hint at the level of devotion required of these practices.

I'm quite sure he recognizes the human imperfections of his guru but that is also a fact of what is and is therefore an element of perfection....

The title is not meant to imply gullibility.

[rex]

"Perfect teacher" is also a hint at the level of devotion required of these practices. I'm quite sure he recognizes the human imperfections of his guru but that is also a fact of what is and is therefore an element of perfection.... The title is not meant to imply gullibility.

Nice explanation. It's about having pure perception to receive benefit when listening to teachings. Padmasambhva taught that if the teacher is perceived as a dog then then blessings of a dog will be received;an ordinary person, then the blessings of an ordinary person; but if the teacher is perceived as a realised being then the blessings of a buddha will be received.

 

Edit: tpyos

Edited June 23, 2014 by rex

[GrandmasterP]

Fair comment.

I posted a link elsewhere on here a week or so ago to a Dzogchen lama talking about Pure Land cultivation.

That was pretty good.

"Perfect" though... That's a big ask of anyone IMO.

Edited June 23, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

Fair comment.

I posted a link elsewhere on here a week or so ago to a Dzogchen lama talking about Pure Land cultivation.

That was pretty good.

"Perfect" though... That's a big ask of anyone IMO.

 

 

You can be a perfect teacher if you teach perfectly.

[C T]

Fair comment.

I posted a link elsewhere on here a week or so ago to a Dzogchen lama talking about Pure Land cultivation.

That was pretty good.

"Perfect" though... That's a big ask of anyone IMO.

In Vajrayana, the term 'perfection' is very much related to 'aspiration'.

 

For example, Milarepa... for many years, he led the life of a scoundrel. He was a black magician, enraged, vengeful and filled with dark thoughts.

 

At some point, he began to realise that some aspect of his life was torturous more to himself than to those he was harming, and aspired to walk the path of the Dharma. While Milarepa may not be perfect even after the realisation, that noble aspiration was nonetheless faultless. No, he did not become enlightened immediately after the fact (of realisation), but thats not what perfection means, in this context.

 

Therefore, even the smallest, flickering wish generated with sincerity, that is centred on wanting others to be happy and free from sorrow, and eventually followed on with altruistic action, is said to be without any stain, faultless, and perfect.

 

The generation aspect is tied to wisdom, because one sees/realises that others as equally deserving of good things just like oneself, so this disarms all the arrogance, fear, anger and aggressiveness from the inside out, and then, when followed by altruistic action resulting from that realisation, compassion is activated. This is the ultimate perfection within the context of the Mahayana path, and really, its not that difficult to put into practice, because the noble path towards cultivating such a practice is indeed without fault.

[Spotless]

I had enquired into this with a teacher before, and he said two of the main reasons for some of these seemingly phantasmagoric tales is to 'test' a student's resolve and reaction, from which a teacher can detect tell-tale signs as to how genuine the student is. One cannot practice guru yoga and at the same time doubt a teacher's words. So, some teachers relate such far-fetched tales (mixed with some truthful ones) to gauge subtle reactive energies from the student(s) to see if they will become easily distracted, or maybe start ridiculing the teacher, or belittling the teachings etc.

 

Secondly, its to help expand the mind, to keep it pliable, so that if death were to occur without warning, where the mind suddenly becomes unrestrained, it will not be subject to confusion and bewilderment, which could lead to rebirth in the lower realms. By inculcating a sort of familiarity with the probable scenarios which will likely take place in the bardos, the student learns to prepare for all sorts of eventualities and not get swayed or tricked by what occurs there during the transitional phase.

This is subtle teaching and very true - it also illustrates the power of group and teacher.

A superb post - a good teacher.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Spotless

[Tibetan_Ice]

I had enquired into this with a teacher before, and he said two of the main reasons for some of these seemingly phantasmagoric tales is to 'test' a student's resolve and reaction, from which a teacher can detect tell-tale signs as to how genuine the student is. One cannot practice guru yoga and at the same time doubt a teacher's words. So, some teachers relate such far-fetched tales (mixed with some truthful ones) to gauge subtle reactive energies from the student(s) to see if they will become easily distracted, or maybe start ridiculing the teacher, or belittling the teachings etc.

...

 

 

Yes but doesn't the perfect teacher have clairvoyance, psychic powers that let him know your resolve and intent without having to play mind games?

[Tibetan_Ice]

In Vajrayana, the term 'perfection' is very much related to 'aspiration'.

 

For example, Milarepa... for many years, he led the life of a scoundrel. He was a black magician, enraged, vengeful and filled with dark thoughts.

 

At some point, he began to realise that some aspect of his life was torturous more to himself than to those he was harming, and aspired to walk the path of the Dharma. While Milarepa may not be perfect even after the realisation, that noble aspiration was nonetheless faultless. No, he did not become enlightened immediately after the fact (of realisation), but thats not what perfection means, in this context.

 

Therefore, even the smallest, flickering wish generated with sincerity, that is centred on wanting others to be happy and free from sorrow, and eventually followed on with altruistic action, is said to be without any stain, faultless, and perfect.

 

The generation aspect is tied to wisdom, because one sees/realises that others as equally deserving of good things just like oneself, so this disarms all the arrogance, fear, anger and aggressiveness from the inside out, and then, when followed by altruistic action resulting from that realisation, compassion is activated. This is the ultimate perfection within the context of the Mahayana path, and really, its not that difficult to put into practice, because the noble path towards cultivating such a practice is indeed without fault.

But doesn't suffering and pain serve the purpose of helping to awaken the person?

Wanting others to be happy and free of bad things, isn't that like removing their lessons, their motives to reach beyond?

Isn't true compassion to love someone and share in their suffering, but letting be?

[C T]

Yes but doesn't the perfect teacher have clairvoyance, psychic powers that let him know your resolve and intent without having to play mind games?

If the teacher has a pure motive, then its not mind games, since he or she is taking the students' progress quite seriously and meticulously.

 

Clairvoyance and psychic powers could sometimes mean one is able to read subtle signs or mental twitches that others without those siddhis can't. Usually, being told of such dramatic accounts would cause some reaction in the listener, but a well-trained, pacified mind of the yogi-aspirant will ideally remain unmoved -- so, the tales told become more and more bizarre and fantastic, increasing in frequency... and the teacher watches for any mental faltering. Its mind training ultimately, not with a motive to trap or disempower the aspirants.

[C T]

But doesn't suffering and pain serve the purpose of helping to awaken the person?

Wanting others to be happy and free of bad things, isn't that like removing their lessons, their motives to reach beyond?

Isn't true compassion to love someone and share in their suffering, but letting be?

Wanting others to be free from suffering, in effect, neutralises the practitioner's mind, which is the first requirement for mind training. Ultimately, this intention benefits everybody, including oneself. This intention will slowly wear down the practitioner's resistance to self-worthiness. For example, when a person who has experienced harm were to generate the sincere wish that others do not experience that same harm, this way of thinking or attitude immediately neutralises some of the poison or karma relating to his or her past. In the beginning, its understandable that such a practice will be quite difficult, but if one has the patience and willpower, over time, it gets easier, eventually leading to complete freedom and pacification of inner conflict. If one simply allows the perceived suffering in others to remain, even though it ultimately may lead to some sort of breakthrough in others, it will not have the same effect on oneself. If not careful, such letting others be could lead to apathetic habits which will take more effort to overcome in the end.

 

Compassion in the Mahayana tradition is not one based on sacrificial ideals but on mutually benefitting ideals. No matter what good is done for others, or what good wishes are generated for others, ultimately, one benefits. The greater the scope of this wish, the more vast that space in the heart.

[gatito]

Yes but doesn't the perfect teacher have clairvoyance, psychic powers that let him know your resolve and intent without having to play mind games?

 

You don't need siddhis and you don't need to tell fairy stories to see when someone's insincere.

 

I've sat directly in front of a so-called rinpoche trying to inflate his own importance and that of his 'teachings" with such fairy stories and by the time he'd finishished he couldn't look me in the eye.