A lot of questions

[RookieIAm]

1. I know i asked this before, but no one answered it: so since there are 3 broad energies called qi, shen, and jing; does this mean that there are systems like shen-gong and jing-gong or along those lines?And are these energies made up of yin and yang, so would there be energy like yin shen, yang shen, yin jing, etc.?

 

2. What is Neidan and Waidan? What are the differences between these two? Similarities? I thought they were both types of alchemy, so are there more types of alchemy that fall in group with these two?

 

3. Last question, there are energies such as post earth and post heaven right, and these are made up of yin post earth and yang post earth right? How many energies like this are there and can someone name them? Moreover, since qi, shen, and jing are also energies, and you can change one into the other by changing the vibration or frequency; can one do the same thing with energies such as post heaven, post earth, pre heaven, etc.?

[Bearded Dragon]

1. Gong means work, so qigong is working with qi and shengong is working with spirit etc. Yin and yang are like the binary codes of the universe. Some label them as something specific but you would be restricting yourself to do so. They form a difference of potential in the same manner as voltage.

 

2. Nei means internal. Wai means external.

 

3. Forget about all that. It's all meaningless.

 

 

You just need to find a teacher. Knowing words is only going to make you think you know something when you really have no idea. Being able to do something is true knowledge.

 

If you can't find a teacher then just get in a basic qigong posture, stand there, and just listen to your body. No words, no presumptions. What will happen 99% of the time is that people will not do that because they would rather read about a magical secret formula. You end up getting nowhere.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. The reason I didn't respond is that I have no answers for you. To me that's alchemy stuff and I don't go there. For me, "Keep your body and mind healthy" is quite enough. (If we listen to our body and mind we will know if they are healthy or not.)

[KenBrace]

I've always wondered where shen and jing come to play in neigong and specifically Mo Pai.

[Marblehead]

With a little luck one of our Alchemic members will see this thread and be kind enough to offer some insight.

[ChiDragon]

3. Last question, there are energies such as post earth and post heaven right, and these are made up of yin post earth and yang post earth right? How many energies like this are there and can someone name them? Moreover, since qi, shen, and jing are also energies, and you can change one into the other by changing the vibration or frequency; can one do the same thing with energies such as post heaven, post earth, pre heaven, etc.?

 

I see that you are picking up lots of erroneous terms from here and there. There are no such terms such as "post earth", "post heaven", yin post earth or yang post earth. btw "Post heaven" was mistranslated from 先天(xian tian). The correct translation is prenatal postnatal.

 

先天(xian tian): prenatal

後天(hou tian): postnatal

 

Edited the last word.

 

Sorry, my bad.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

I see that you are picking up lots of erroneous terms from here and there. There are no such terms such as "post earth", "post heaven", yin post earth or yang post earth. btw "Post heaven" was mistranslated from 先天(xian tian). The correct translation is postnatal.

 

I know you think Medical Qigong is nonsense for children's belief but if you had any background you would at least know that your wrong to even suggest post heaven 先天(xian tian) is translated as postnatal.

 

While it is true that post heaven and post natal are interchanged in meaning, they are two different chinese compound characters.

 

You don't know what prenatal is in chinese energy... else you would of cleared that up.

 

post heaven = 先天(xian tian)

[Vitalii]

post heaven = 先天(xian tian)

 

you're a bit wrong

 

Pre-Heaven - 先天

Post-Heaven - 後天

[dawei]

 

Source: JAJ Medical Qigong Manual

 

 

 

For example: Qi is congential or acquired.

 

The former is often called preheaven, prenatal or congential.

 

The latter is often called postheave, postnatal or acquired.

 

But the word prenatal [qi] comes from 元[氣]

 

And the word preheaven comes from 先天

 

 

 

some past threads for the OP:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/6586-pre-heaven-jing/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/20263-how-much-do-we-undersatnd-the-microcosmic-orbit/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/22419-translating-questions-and-answers-on-the-golden-elixir/

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32451-where-is-the-concept-of-neidan-came-from/

[dawei]

2. What is Neidan and Waidan? What are the differences between these two? Similarities? I thought they were both types of alchemy, so are there more types of alchemy that fall in group with these two?

 

There is a long history of alchemy and probably most may think of the later developments of Quanzhen or maybe the best known text Awakening to Reality.

 

But in fact, it could be argued it starts back with Dao Yin practices on some level, and in the ancient Qi Inscription block, and in Heshang Gong, Baopuzi, early visualization as shown in The Central Scriptures of Laozi, Celestial Masters practices, etc.

 

So it really depends on exactly want you want to discuss.

[dawei]

~~~ Admin notice ~~~

 

Thread cleaned up.

 

Member warned about continued banter, troll, and challenging without caring to discuss.

 

Last warning.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[flowing hands]

Both these terms are completely misleading.

 

Qi is passed on like a chain, like a chain of cells, they are neither post or pre heaven. The terms misleads and obscures a true understanding.

 

All life is a link in this chain, the chain joins us all together, whatever life we are. The qi we have is all post settlement of the earth when the environment was right for life to form. The qi is post big bang. What we do with this and how we cultivate this afterwards is then another matter. The chain of qi is then passed on to another life by the chain of DNA. We do not acquire qi if we are part of the chain and all life is, we can only enhance what we have as part of that chain.

[ChiDragon]

In respect to a child, the idea of both terms....
1. Prenatal was referred to that the DNA is still in the parents.
2. Postnatal was referred to that the DNA has been passed onto the child.


Another concept for TCM.....
1. Prenatal Qi(氣) is the five grains and the air(Qi from Heaven and Earth), the sources of energy from nature, are provided for the survival of human after birth.
2. Postnatal Qi are the basic units for the body structure. The ancient Chinese Taoists were referred as Jing(精), Chi(氣), and Shen(神). Unfortunately, these three terms were never explicitly defined and spinning our heads.

Edited June 23, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Another concept for TCM....

 

This thread is about energy / neigong.... TCM does not understand these issues as fully as energy systems. This is where study in higher levels of alchemy, magic, and Medical Qigong are better understood.

[Walker]

In respect to a child, the idea of both terms....

1. Prenatal was referred to that the DNA is still in the parents.

2. Postnatal was referred to that the DNA has been passed onto the child.

 

 

Another concept for TCM.....

1. Prenatal Qi(氣) is the five grains and the air(Qi from Heaven and Earth), the sources of energy from nature, are provided for the survival of human after birth.

2. Postnatal Qi are the basic units for the body structure. The ancient Chinese Taoists were referred as Jing(精), Chi(氣), and Shen(神). Unfortunately, these three terms were never explicitly defined and spinning our heads.

 

 

Regarding the first part of Chi Dragon's exposition:

 

The ancients were not talking about DNA when they used the terms pre-heaven and post-heaven. Understanding the meaning of these terms requires understanding what is implied by the structure of the character 天, not inventing pseudoscientific nonsense.

 

There are numerous reliable dictionaries of Daoist vocabulary terms and TCM vocabulary terms. In addition to convenient and concise dictionary definitions which can be accessed by anybody who reads Chinese, there are countless ancient and modern books which further discuss these all of the terms in question in very elaborate detail. In fact, those who read Daoist liturgical scriptures will realize that much of their content is none other than detailed discussion of the terms in question. The writings of important doctors throughout Chinese history also offer deep and thorough analysis.

 

Since Chi Dragon is so wont to gloat about the fact that Chinese is his native language, it is remarkable and distressing that he neglects to consult these publicly-accessible writings before typing out theories that he first invents off-the-cuff and later pretends represent something more than his muddled and obstinant mentations.

 

It is fine to theorize on The Tao Bums or anywhere, if one is doing so in order to learn and engage in dialogue. It is disgraceful to theorize if one pretends to be offering the truth and is recalcitrant in the face of disagreement.

 

Regarding the second part:

 

Total bunk. Anybody who has gone through the first semester of TCM school in China or elsewhere can see that Chi Dragon has not understood the fundamental vocabulary of this discipline.

 

I can only shake my head and state that whereas this guy claims that "these terms were never explicitly defined," in fact, to the exact contrary, writings which explore these questions are too numerous to mention; are very well-known; and are very easy to find. They range from the entire canons of Chinese medicine and Daoism going from the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic and the Yellow Court Classic (actually, earlier) all the way up to books being published today in both disciplines. Those who don't like reading books can now easily see free and valuable lectures on these topics all over the internet in videos in English, Chinese, and surely many other languages. Those who neither like books nor videos can also, of course, seek out living teachers, which is always the most advisable choice for the serious seeker.

 

As one slowly, slowly, slowly begins to grasp the theory while simultaneously engaging in years of steady, disciplined practice, gradually these abstruse terms will come into focus. If one has great patience, dedication, humility, luck, intelligence, wisdom, good teachers, and good information, one may have a shot at opening doors to understanding of Dao--the greatest blessing a human could ever hope for. Conversely... conversely...

 

________

 

Chi Dragon has confessed that he lacks the ability to understand classical Chinese, and his comments betray that he also fails to study modern presentations of the same information. Yet he still believes he has license to assume professorly tones and offer confident discourse on these topics. This is the behavior of a very confused, lost man.

[hagar]

1. I know i asked this before, but no one answered it: so since there are 3 broad energies called qi, shen, and jing; does this mean that there are systems like shen-gong and jing-gong or along those lines?And are these energies made up of yin and yang, so would there be energy like yin shen, yang shen, yin jing, etc.?

 

2. What is Neidan and Waidan? What are the differences between these two? Similarities? I thought they were both types of alchemy, so are there more types of alchemy that fall in group with these two?

 

3. Last question, there are energies such as post earth and post heaven right, and these are made up of yin post earth and yang post earth right? How many energies like this are there and can someone name them? Moreover, since qi, shen, and jing are also energies, and you can change one into the other by changing the vibration or frequency; can one do the same thing with energies such as post heaven, post earth, pre heaven, etc.?

In my own limited understanding, the only question that is fruitful to answer, and that you gain real benefit from without it hindering your potential for experiencing this yourself is the first question.

 

Yes, there are forms or practices that focus primarily on one of the three. I find that going beyond the cultural and semantic discussion into the actual perception of Jing, Chi and Shen (they are by no means Chinese or ancient) is a good way.

I practice all three, and may focus on Jing forms, Chi forms or Shen forms depending on my need or goal.

Intelectually you may be able to discern yin and yang aspects of all three treasures, yet it is difficult to percieve yin and yang beyond the Chi aspect. None of the three treasures are identical to their manifestation, just like semen is not the same or identical to Jing. This is really important to understand, and saved me from alot of wasted time and effort.

 

Jing is our essential water or liquid; thus practicing Jing - forms works on your body, your tendons, ligaments, glands, yet are not them. Jing is the essential water the moisture, the deep basic essence of your material existence. Jing is not sexual, yet Jing is expressed sexually. If you do it right, it will be activated and you feel it coming out of your pores, your joints, manifesting in a different form of sweat. It is actually quite difficult to activate jing.

Chi is our essential fire. It is in its nature both yin and yang, based on the context it is placed, yet it is not essentially one or the other. Chi may feel like friction, vibration, magnetism, and can manifest as hot or cold. Chi is always flowing, dispersing or collecting, never static. Most qigong works with this. Shen forms worsk with our essential space and light. Shen is both space and light, and information, and feels like a light bulb, or a gathering of sparks or radiation. This is the perception of it, yet Shen is not that, Much more our deepest energetic being. Beyond that we are not localized at all. Just being.

 

There is also a difference in perception of post- and pre- "heaven" or "birth". I will not join this discussion, other than when you meditate with a particular transmission from a teacher or lineage, or if you are lucky, by grace stumble upon it yourself, pre-natal energy (cosmic energy, light and information) is accessed. The only word I can use to describe it is pure, or maybe unconditioned.

 

NeiDan should not be talked about alot prior to practicing it. It will be like spending a year researching parachuting without any real practice. It will only disturb your first encounter with freefall.

 

My two Øre

 

h

[Daeluin]

1. I know i asked this before, but no one answered it: so since there are 3 broad energies called qi, shen, and jing; does this mean that there are systems like shen-gong and jing-gong or along those lines?And are these energies made up of yin and yang, so would there be energy like yin shen, yang shen, yin jing, etc.?

 

2. What is Neidan and Waidan? What are the differences between these two? Similarities? I thought they were both types of alchemy, so are there more types of alchemy that fall in group with these two?

 

3. Last question, there are energies such as post earth and post heaven right, and these are made up of yin post earth and yang post earth right? How many energies like this are there and can someone name them? Moreover, since qi, shen, and jing are also energies, and you can change one into the other by changing the vibration or frequency; can one do the same thing with energies such as post heaven, post earth, pre heaven, etc.?

 

1. When the whole is divided, parts need names.

 

In cultivation we focus inwards and work on dissolving our conditioning to become more whole. We might first focus on the area of the lower dan tien with our breath and mind, as a tool for helping us return to centered being.

 

The 3 dan tiens and the 3 treasures (jing, qi, shen), are ultimately one whole. As the foundation is built, it will naturally transform, and it seems to me, an important key in cultivation is being unattached enough to hear and allow transformation. The more we attach to understanding, the more we get in the way of transformation, and often block it outright.

 

2. I haven't studied these terms a great deal... but perhaps I have something to offer.

 

They say the five elements/forces are originally in harmony within ourselves when we are young. As we become more and more conditioned, we fall into ruts where we do the same thing over an over again. As we rest our desire for stability on the rut we've carved - rather than being centered in the flow of transformation - we lose the ability to readily transform our energies internally.

 

Usually patterns are created as we learn to interact with our external environment, particularly social situations. We might develop patterns of interacting with others.... say our loving and giving parents are always providing a certain energy for us, and forget how that transformation operates internally.

 

As we grow up and leave home, we aren't getting that particular energy fed by the same people, externally. Internally, we've forgotten how this even operates, and it has formed an energetic blockage. The need for the energy is still very real however, so we will somehow find other people to provide that energy externally, unless we heal the blockage internally.

 

Maybe a healer helps us identify and heal a blockage. But we still need to heal the pattern on our own, or before long we'll be blocked again.

 

I don't know if this follows the traditional understanding of neidan and waidan. I would speculate that neidan is related to cultivation of the flow of energies internally as a closed system able to support itself without outside influence. And waidan might cover the exchange of energies between all things.

 

On Wikipedia it seems waidan is associated with chemistry. On an qigong level I would speculate waidan covers the exchange of energies between the inside and the outside. For instance, in the use of emitting particular types of energy externally in martial arts. Or, in the art of absorbing external qi to replenish internal qi.

 

On these applications, 2 important lessons have been taught to me:

1. Application of inner energy outside of oneself depends that one has internal energy to use. Thus the importance of cultivation and healing work.
2. In cultivation, we often take in external energy. This energy is not just free, it comes from somewhere. How we transform this borrowed energy, and how we respect its gift to us, is critically important, and often overlooked. Are we absorbing external celestial qi only to mentalize it or worse? Are we offending spirits and immortals through our lack of respect for this energy? How do we use what we have cultivated of ourselves as service back to the tao? This is our payment. Originally we were born with enough to accomplish our destiny. Why did we lose it, and why do we take and take without giving back?

 

3. When the whole is divided, parts need names.

 

When the whole changes, it separates into parts.

 

When these parts are flow in harmony without attachment, perhaps they follow the order of the pre-heaven 8 trigrams. I might speculate this order flows as a waxing and waning of yin and yang.

 

I might further speculate that when these unattached energies take on attachment to form, the way they attach and create new parts follows the arrangement of the post-heaven 8 trigrams. One could look at this arrangement of the mating of opposing energies.

 

Perhaps one might follow the energetic ordering of the pre-heaven 8 trigrams to refine one's attached and separated energies back towards wholeness.

 

But this is subtle. In bagua I have trained in feeling these arrangements of energies, and they have changed me. I feel many levels of awareness are connected to them.

 

Yet (as others have stressed), how can this be of use to you without a teacher to guide your training? And when you find that teacher, if you are not empty, how will you be able to hear the deeper subtleties in their transmission when your mind overflows with your own attachments to understanding?

 

Perhaps I can share something helpful as way of answering some of the essence in your questions. When we train in forms, we shape the form of our bodies in different ways, and the wholeness of our energy (and the way it behaves in interaction with our inside and outside) changes. We flow through these changes and transformations of our energy without leaving our center and our wholeness. As our practice deepens, the changes and transformations of our energies reach deeper into places where we might have blocked and stagnant energy. The changes and transformations penetrate into these places and over time liberate these stagnations and the completeness of our whole increases.

 

As we become more whole, it seems the need for movement practices lessens, and we are able to go deeper into stillness through sitting practices. The more stillness we are able to bring into movement may, I speculate, be related to higher abilities in martial arts and/or earthly immortal feats.

 

Explorations of HOW these changes and transformations operate are attachments. Attachments can be useful tools, but.... when there are tools scattered all around our yard (mind), how can we be free to feel and dance? Seems we'd always be looking down or getting tripped up.

 

 

It is said the pre-heaven and post-heaven arrangements of the trigrams came from the He Tu and Luo Shu diagrams, which are pretty subtle. If you are interested, here is a nice doc that goes into some of their application.

[Fazeng]

2. What is Neidan and Waidan? What are the differences between these two? Similarities? I thought they were both types of alchemy, so are there more types of alchemy that fall in group with these two?

"The meaning of waidan derives from wai (outside, exterior) and dan referring to alchemical operations, such as the preparation of chemical elixirs, made from cinnabar, realgar, and other substances generally involving mercury, sulfur, lead, and arsenic..."

[GrandmasterP]

WTF?

[SonOfTheGods]

In my own limited understanding, the only question that is fruitful to answer, and that you gain real benefit from without it hindering your potential for experiencing this yourself is the first question.

 

Yes, there are forms or practices that focus primarily on one of the three. I find that going beyond the cultural and semantic discussion into the actual perception of Jing, Chi and Shen (they are by no means Chinese or ancient) is a good way.

I practice all three, and may focus on Jing forms, Chi forms or Shen forms depending on my need or goal.

Intelectually you may be able to discern yin and yang aspects of all three treasures, yet it is difficult to percieve yin and yang beyond the Chi aspect. None of the three treasures are identical to their manifestation, just like semen is not the same or identical to Jing. This is really important to understand, and saved me from alot of wasted time and effort.

 

Jing is our essential water or liquid; thus practicing Jing - forms works on your body, your tendons, ligaments, glands, yet are not them. Jing is the essential water the moisture, the deep basic essence of your material existence. Jing is not sexual, yet Jing is expressed sexually. If you do it right, it will be activated and you feel it coming out of your pores, your joints, manifesting in a different form of sweat. It is actually quite difficult to activate jing.

Chi is our essential fire. It is in its nature both yin and yang, based on the context it is placed, yet it is not essentially one or the other. Chi may feel like friction, vibration, magnetism, and can manifest as hot or cold. Chi is always flowing, dispersing or collecting, never static. Most qigong works with this. Shen forms worsk with our essential space and light. Shen is both space and light, and information, and feels like a light bulb, or a gathering of sparks or radiation. This is the perception of it, yet Shen is not that, Much more our deepest energetic being. Beyond that we are not localized at all. Just being.

 

There is also a difference in perception of post- and pre- "heaven" or "birth". I will not join this discussion, other than when you meditate with a particular transmission from a teacher or lineage, or if you are lucky, by grace stumble upon it yourself, pre-natal energy (cosmic energy, light and information) is accessed. The only word I can use to describe it is pure, or maybe unconditioned.

 

NeiDan should not be talked about alot prior to practicing it. It will be like spending a year researching parachuting without any real practice. It will only disturb your first encounter with freefall.

 

My two Øre

 

h

 

good stuff man!

[hagar]

good stuff man!

 

Well, after I wrote that, I feel I overstepped my bounds abit. Since wasting alot of time letting the brain think about this, actual reflection on the living process is the only thing that works, beyond the blueprint you get from a teacher.

NeiDan for me has been an experiential initiation. It is very, very slow. At least for me, living ordinary life.

It is like cooking something delicate, for a feast, while having no time, and your kids need to be driven to school in 3 minutes.

 

So basically, the preparation is everything. The few instances where I have gotten glimpses of what it may induce, it is as if your entire system recieves the One nourishment it actually craves. It is really as described in some Inner alchemy texts, where it is defined as "mother´s milk". My main point is that if it is adressed like an engineering task, slowly building up something in a causal, linear fashion, it will elude you. Even if you are deeply comitted. Many stories of this on TTB.

 

Sitting and sensing the cavity or cavities that you are focusing on has to be done with the deepest receptivity and sensitivity. It feels like a listening.

 

I say this just as much to myself as to anyone else who might be on this path. My worst enemy is my ambition.

 

bla bla

 

h

[allinone]

1. I know i asked this before, but no one answered it: so since there are 3 broad energies called qi, shen, and jing; does this mean that there are systems like shen-gong and jing-gong or along those lines?And are these energies made up of yin and yang, so would there be energy like yin shen, yang shen, yin jing, etc.?

 

2. What is Neidan and Waidan? What are the differences between these two? Similarities? I thought they were both types of alchemy, so are there more types of alchemy that fall in group with these two?

 

3. Last question, there are energies such as post earth and post heaven right, and these are made up of yin post earth and yang post earth right? How many energies like this are there and can someone name them? Moreover, since qi, shen, and jing are also energies, and you can change one into the other by changing the vibration or frequency; can one do the same thing with energies such as post heaven, post earth, pre heaven, etc.?

 

Cultivate awareness, its the essence of it all.

 

You can call or pray guidance and you will be helped. Ask God.

purify your mind.