The Sage not acting for reward

[nestentrie]

I think I have one more verse to offer up for consideration:

 

79

When a reconciliation is effected (between two parties) after a
great animosity, there is sure to be a grudge remaining (in the mind
of the one who was wrong). And how can this be beneficial (to the
other)?

Therefore (to guard against this), the sage keeps the left-hand
portion of the record of the engagement, and does not insist on the
(speedy) fulfilment of it by the other party. (So), he who has the
attributes (of the Tao) regards (only) the conditions of the
engagement, while he who has not those attributes regards only the
conditions favourable to himself.

In the Way of Heaven, there is no partiality of love; it is always
on the side of the good man.

 

I'm guessing the agreement on how the place is cleaned is on shaky ground. Maybe it's time to formalise the agreement? (Where A states their wishes, but perhaps cedes a little ground?) Resentment isn't fun for anyone.

[Kajenx]

Nice answer, and yes, the scenario is very detailed and specific. I understand with what you are saying RE trying to pigeon hole a few lines from TTC, so thanks for your elaboration.

 

So your stand is that it is all within person A and their cultivation. My question to you, is if the emotional state would not change regardless of what was going on (doing dishes, watching TV, playing football) does this mean that a sage doesn't make any decisions? A life fully lacking in purpose? Surely anyone without any purpose or preference in this current world lacks interaction with fellow humans? I mean, if the sage doesn't have a hobby, then they will have nothing in common with anyone and thus, no friends...

 

"A life lacking in purpose" is another way of saying "a life with no desires". Purpose drives us towards greater contentment. A person who is always content has no need for purpose or desires or hobbies or even friends. A person like this happens to be the easiest person to be friends with, though, because they will never resent your presence in their life, and they won't cling if you decide to leave. They are more likely to live what people might call "a life of purpose" because there is nothing they would consider a failure.

 

The "not making any decisions" part is what wu wei is referring to. I think the sage acts out of the intuitive curiosity that is present when something is seen as new. Everything is always seen as new, so everything is interesting. It's not interesting because of where it will lead, it's interesting because of what's hapening right now.

 

This is my opinion, of course, but I see the mystical process as a gradual degradation of the link between the emotional center and the mental "shorhand" we've developed over time to create our judgements and opinions. When this link is gone, the mind doesn't "feel" opinions, it simply knows they exist. When opinions aren't felt, most of them are seen for what they are - useless. The sage will still run away from a rabid dog, and they'll still feed themself and maybe even have a hobby. But if their house burns down and destroys their life's work, it wouldn't affect them emotionally. To be a sage is to be content.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Kajenx

[Kajenx]

Good question...I will answer bit by bit.

 

1. A helps B because they co-exist in a household. In fact A is equally helping themselves out too. Just feels it would be nice to have a little help around the place. When B does help, B makes a big point of it, not even acknowledging that A is always putting the work in.

 

So...

 

2. It's a big kettle of fish helping everybody else in the world that is not as fortunate. Surely A can co-habit AND do their bit for the world?

 

3. Correct tha A is happier overall anyway. And maybe they do pity B's attitude. But isn't it normal for someone else to pull their weight? Why shouldn't they get frustrated? I wouldn't say A is jealous of B...just observational of B's shortcomings.

 

Person A was the sage in your original post, so I'm going to rewrite you account a bit and insert my view of the sage. ^^ I'm not saying this is correct, just where my opinions sit at the moment.

 

On the first point, the sage (person A) wouldn't feel any need for help. If person B does help and makes a big deal, person A has no resentment or need for validation, so they would offer encouragement and praise. If you want to see the situation like a sage, imagine for a moment that person A is a grandmother, and person B is her 6 year old granddaughter. Does that change anything? The sage is always content, and being content makes them kind. There is no need for morality or thoughts of right and wrong. When a person finds fulfillment simply in existing, kindness is automatic and easy. Every moment is its own validation.

 

Your third point differs from my view of the sage in that the sage is not an emotional creature. That's not to say that someone in the process of becoming a sage isn't. But once they have become a sage, the situation would not cause them to judge person B by comparing person B to themself. Person A isn't just happier, they are perfectly content. Person A wouldn't have any trace of resentment.

[Rara]

 

"A life lacking in purpose" is another way of saying "a life with no desires". Purpose drives us towards greater contentment. A person who is always content has no need for purpose or desires or hobbies or even friends. A person like this happens to be the easiest person to be friends with, though, because they will never resent your presence in their life, and they won't cling if you decide to leave. They are more likely to live what people might call "a life of purpose" because there is nothing they would consider a failure.

 

The "not making any decisions" part is what wu wei is referring to. I think the sage acts out of the intuitive curiosity that is present when something is seen as new. Everything is always seen as new, so everything is interesting. It's not interesting because of where it will lead, it's interesting because of what's hapening right now.

 

This is my opinion, of course, but I see the mystical process as a gradual degradation of the link between the emotional center and the mental "shorhand" we've developed over time to create our judgements and opinions. When this link is gone, the mind doesn't "feel" opinions, it simply knows they exist. When opinions aren't felt, most of them are seen for what they are - useless. The sage will still run away from a rabid dog, and they'll still feed themself and maybe even have a hobby. But if their house burns down and destroys their life's work, it wouldn't affect them emotionally. To be a sage is to be content.

Yes, that is what I was looking for...

 

Desire...

 

Drive to do things. As much as I understand Wu Wei in this context, it bats against the idea of having any specific goal. Which is fair, sages whouldn't concern themselves with goals...that is a common understanding amongst Taoists.

 

It throws expectations out, and as you say, no real need to make friends, hobbies etc. Yet can still participate while being content.

 

This is something I associate with the older generation. That stereotype of grandparents that have been together for 40 years and are now content. No need (or probably want) for a sex life or to be glued to each other....or no jealousy issues. But they will go for walks, have a seat on the bench and just marvel at the view in front of them.

 

Pure harmony, no effort.

 

But maybe in my scenario, there is work still to be done on both parts that will lead to this. A and B are young, trying to co-exist...who knows, maybe 30 years down the line, they both are sages following years and years of internal work, and work with each other.

 

Maybe there is the answer...A obviously still has desires, hence why he sticks around with B. And these desires we all have...but over time, they will diminish naturally, should we let them.

[Rara]

 

Person A was the sage in your original post, so I'm going to rewrite you account a bit and insert my view of the sage. ^^ I'm not saying this is correct, just where my opinions sit at the moment.

 

On the first point, the sage (person A) wouldn't feel any need for help. If person B does help and makes a big deal, person A has no resentment or need for validation, so they would offer encouragement and praise. If you want to see the situation like a sage, imagine for a moment that person A is a grandmother, and person B is her 6 year old granddaughter. Does that change anything? The sage is always content, and being content makes them kind. There is no need for morality or thoughts of right and wrong. When a person finds fulfillment simply in existing, kindness is automatic and easy. Every moment is its own validation.

 

Your third point differs from my view of the sage in that the sage is not an emotional creature. That's not to say that someone in the process of becoming a sage isn't. But once they have become a sage, the situation would not cause them to judge person B by comparing person B to themself. Person A isn't just happier, they are perfectly content. Person A wouldn't have any trace of resentment.

I like this a lot and to back track, the OP did ask if person A was actually a sage, which now I realise they cannot be...but yes, none the less, could well be on their way. A and B are young, developing, and still having to make decisions about how to move forward.

 

I really like your twist that A could be grandparent and B could be a 6 year old granddaughter. Notice how we wouldn't typically invert that? That A is younger and B is older?

 

This is now becoming a more obvious outlook to me...maturity.

 

Being rational with clear vision...something that we all develop over time. And time being the beneficial factor. How many 6 year old sages do we imagine there are? Probably none. 60 year old sages? Perhaps a fair few.

 

But at an earlier age, we have the desire to cultivate. We can't help that, and why should we? And when cultivation is done and one is full/content, then they are a sage.

 

I think I am beginning to understand. Thank you

[Rara]

...just to add...

 

I used to interpret "desire" as a bad thing. But maybe it's very much needed as a stepping stone to enlightenment. Perhaps it was this misinterpretation that confused me.

 

I used to have anger issues. When I stepped outside of myself and just let the anger flow, I could observe it...and when it was all out of my system I would sit and laugh at myself, thinking "well that was entertaining".

 

Prior, I used to believe that I couldn't help myself and that anger was a part of me. Due to that belief, I remained angry, violent, and upset a lot of people that I loved.

 

Lesson: Desire, anger, addiction...none of these are bad things. They can only aid us. The danger is one not being able to see how these can be used pragmatically for self-improvement!

[manitou]

 

 

 

I used to have anger issues. When I stepped outside of myself and just let the anger flow, I could observe it...and when it was all out of my system I would sit and laugh at myself, thinking "well that was entertaining".

 

 

This is wonderful. When you stepped out of yourself and saw yourself for what you are, that is the Witness state, or at least a part of it. I've also read of it as a 'Christ consciousness' To be able to see ourselves, but without attaching a value judgment onto it; not to let it rattle us because we can suddenly see how very selfish, for example, we've been over the years. It is what it is, and it's our choice as to what to do about it, if anything. The anger issues certainly would have gotten in the way of clarity, as ego is at the bottom of it.

In recovery programs, it's vital to take a "fearless and thorough moral inventory", which gives us the place to start to remove the contortions within. Fearless is the key word; we have to get past the place where we're 'afraid' to see ourselves as we really are.

You're right. It is entertaining once we've admitted that we're imperfect beings because of our default settings (due to early input). Once done, you're laid out there open, transparent because you have no fear of judgment. It's the beginning of Liberation as I see it.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I liked the post but I had to change 'Christ consciousness' to 'Sagely consciousness'. (But I understand why you used it.)

[manitou]

Yeah, I liked the post but I had to change 'Christ consciousness' to 'Sagely consciousness'. (But I understand why you used it.)

 

Same thing, as I see it...I think you could probably say Buddha consciousness as well.

[ChiDragon]

Same thing, as I see it...I think you could probably say Buddha consciousness as well.

MH was trying to say that he is not religious......

[Marblehead]

Same thing, as I see it...I think you could probably say Buddha consciousness as well.

Yep. And I would still have to change that to "Sagely".

[Stosh]

I think Id just say 'conscious'.

[GrandmasterP]

"Awake" maybe?

Once you attach some religious dude's name to anything then that brings all sorts of baggage.

'Christ Consciousness' is a cult in one its manifestations ( Bernard Perona et al).

Edited July 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I think Id just say 'conscious'.

Well, yeah, doing that would avoid my criticism.

[manitou]

MH was trying to say that he is not religious......

 

 

I'm not either, I've just read so many metaphysical books that refer to christ consciousness that I realize it as a mindset. I really wasn't referring to it as Jesus' last name or anything. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Nope. I certainly don't want to draw Marbles' criticism. Not me,

[GrandmasterP]

 

I'm not either, I've just read so many metaphysical books that refer to christ consciousness that I realize it as a mindset. I really wasn't referring to it as Jesus' last name or anything. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Nope. I certainly don't want to draw Marbles' criticism. Not me,

 

It would only really be a last name if say a Miss Christ married a Mr Consciousness and they decided to become double-barrelled for a surname.

"Ladies and gentlemen will you welcome onto the dancefloor as they lead us in the first dance the new Mr & Mrs....

Darren and Lisa Christ- Consciousness."

[flowing hands]

MH was trying to say that he is not religious......

I am working on him to see the spiritual, but certainly not the religious!

[Marblehead]

Nope. I certainly don't want to draw Marbles' criticism. Not me,

But you love it just the same. Hehehe. Like the child who misbehaves just so (s)he can get their mom's attention.

[Marblehead]

It would only really be a last name if say a Miss Christ married a Mr Consciousness and they decided to become double-barrelled for a surname. "Ladies and gentlemen will you welcome onto the dancefloor as they lead us in the first dance the new Mr & Mrs.... Darren and Lisa Christ- Consciousness."

That would be horrible!

[GrandmasterP]

Still better than......

Traylor- Hooker ( really)

Edited July 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Well, hopefully he was the hooker.

[manitou]

Still better than......

Traylor- Hooker ( really)

 

I think I met them at a truck stop...

[Marblehead]

I think I met them at a truck stop...

Now that gave me a good chuckle knowing what goes on at some truck stops.

[Stosh]

Well almost everyone exchanges something for gain, like ,,get married .

Edited July 2, 2014 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well almost everyone exchanges something for gain, like ,,get married .

I tried that. Three times. I lost more than I gained.