The Sage not acting for reward

[Rara]

+1

Often the actual question implicit from the student to the teacher is....

"Please will you take responsibility for my life?"

 

Effective teachers always answer no.

Really effective teachers have lots of kind ways to say " No".

 

Reminds me of the Karate Kid. Mr Miyagi really wound that kid up, didn't he?

 

You gotta be cruel to be kind as they say.

 

A sage might be impartial, but to an outsider or the "learner", this looks like they are being a meanie. Unless they are a bit more tactful and not straight up rude

 

So, we shall let our person Bs throw their tantrums if they want to. The answer is still "No".

[Rara]

 

Nothing is lost if nothing is gained...if possession is an illusion, as there is no one there to hold on to anything, then there is also no one to lose or let go of anything...

In terms of, obtaining things yes. You can search for a great career for example, and if that job is lost, it can create this illusion of your world falling apart around you. Truth is, you never needed that path, so the world isn't ending...you just tricked yourself into believing the situation was real.

 

But when we are talking about people in our lives, we don't gain them. Like that saying, "you can't chose your family". Nope, they are just there! But we can still lose them due to a bad relationship...

Edited July 14, 2014 by Rara

[GrandmasterP]

Nothing is lost if nothing is gained...if possession is an illusion, as there is no one there to hold on to anything, then there is also no one to lose or let go of anything...

 

 

May well apply elsewhere but, round these parts; all bets are off with relation to trespassers.

( Smithers... release the hounds).

 

Edited July 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

I too love speaking in idealistic terms but then, without warning, reality slaps me aside the face.

 

 

Isn't it strange that reality to one is different than reality to another? So what is reality? It's a mindset, apparently.

I'm not sure that speaking of the interconnectedness of everything, the One, isn't reality. Mundane life and living in the Tao are one and the same; all we can do is change our perspective of what Reality is.

 

If we put out negative stuff, we get negative stuff back. What goes around comes around. If life is a training-ground for further evolution, how can they be separate? As I see it, they're one and the same. We have a choice as to how we choose to see it and react to it.

 

The only thing we can really change is ourselves.

 

(Okay, be nice, Marbles.....after all, I didn't mention the touchy-feely stuff )

Edited July 14, 2014 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Yeah, we have been here before. Perspective is everything. Well, almost everything.

[Daeluin]

Sorry, I didn't explain clearly. The loss of the family member fear was more about them wanting to argue, to provoke a reaction of seeming like I at least care or agree with their viewpoint. The loss would come from a fallout due to differences in opinion. Not that I want the fallout to happen, this is more a case of this other person doing the whole "if you're not going to be supportive then don't bother talking to me".

 

Now, I'm person A here and they are B. I could smile and nod at their opinion about the way they are living and going about things, and the way they are treating me. I could just be there to listen, therefore showing lack of interest. I could highly oppose them and tell them how I really feel. Each option still comes with their relative negative outcomes.

 

Yeah, that's the situation I was replying to.

 

Basically it sounds like something in the situation is stuck. Pretty much nothing you say to this person matters, they just want a listener they can find release from. So... you can push them away because you don't deserve this treatment, but as you say, then they would blame you for the wound to the relationship. Or you could just tune them out, smile and nod, and they would blame you for not listening.

 

I would work on finding a way to actively listen to them without validating them. Keep things simple, and even though you're listening to them, don't support their pattern. There are probably some good thing to say that show you are listening, but have nothing to offer. Then let them get upset at you, but don't defend yourself. Let them make the decision to stop talking to you because they aren't getting the "support" they need from you. Ultimately because it is their decision, they have to be responsible for it.

 

I'd guess the relationship has some really deep and beautiful ties holding it together. But the main thing getting expressed is this dominant pattern. It needs to change, and that means this person needs to change. But they need to change themselves, and they might not want to.

 

So I say loss is inevitable. If you have a temporary separation now, it may mean you are able to come towards a deeper healing and connection with this person. Or perhaps they'll refuse to change. The best thing you can do for yourself is learn to be whole in their presence, without reacting or becoming emotional, without tuning them out, without trying to get them to change because you have a different opinion. But without letting them put out your light. Be happy, regardless of what they do. Learn to see their suffering as interesting, rather than something that triggers you to try to change it. Learn to hear their complaints not as something that need a solution, but as part of a dance. After all, if it isn't a threat to you, what harm can it do? Stop letting it pose a threat to you.

 

RE your point about slavery. I do agree that there are cognitive, behavioural techniques that can help us deal with terrible situations. Of course, meditation is one. But some of us are born into places where we can access this information on how to put this into practice very easily - others aren't. I mean, I wonder how many slaves end up becoming sages. How much access do they have to wisdom or "masters"?

 

Sages and Immortals are largely regular people. They've figured out how to blend into their environment and dissolve the sharp edges of whatever circumstance they happen to be in. Many many people achieve high levels of spiritual attainment without even realizing it, just because they follow the path of least resistance. They don't necessarily see it as a terrible situation - that is relative - so perhaps they don't try to escape.

 

Many trees grow out of cracks in boulders, where their situation is extremely controlled. They don't have freedom to put down roots in all directions. They have scant access to water. Yet they follow the path of least resistance, growing where there is room, with what nourishment is provided. They don't focus on what they are missing, or what the other trees have, they focus on being who they are in the moment.

 

Surely it is a matter fortune that I can live comfortably in England and have such a great support network that can help me on my way. And surely it is not as fortunate to be born into slavery. No matter how much we can tell ourselves that we are ok if in a slave position, it doesn't mean it is true. If anything, one is kidding themselves if they were to deny that there is a better life out there for them...

 

You say it is surely a fortune... but is it really? Our lives are so incredibly controlled, and the abundance of wealth and food we have is really a poison, over time causing people to live with slow debilitating diseases, that never existed before, and have congested systems that block true awareness. The list goes on.

 

Why focus so much on what is an ideal way of living? Living is living. Why so much focus on where the grass is greener and who should have what? That is a disease of the mind, and inhibits change. Live in the moment, naturally, where what is right is right in front of you.

 

The Sage lets go of all attachments, even the senses, and exists purely according to their own true nature, without any second guessing.

[manitou]

The best thing you can do for yourself is learn to be whole in their presence

 

What a beautiful secret this is.

[Rara]

 

Yeah, that's the situation I was replying to.

 

Basically it sounds like something in the situation is stuck. Pretty much nothing you say to this person matters, they just want a listener they can find release from. So... you can push them away because you don't deserve this treatment, but as you say, then they would blame you for the wound to the relationship. Or you could just tune them out, smile and nod, and they would blame you for not listening.

 

I would work on finding a way to actively listen to them without validating them. Keep things simple, and even though you're listening to them, don't support their pattern. There are probably some good thing to say that show you are listening, but have nothing to offer. Then let them get upset at you, but don't defend yourself. Let them make the decision to stop talking to you because they aren't getting the "support" they need from you. Ultimately because it is their decision, they have to be responsible for it.

 

I'd guess the relationship has some really deep and beautiful ties holding it together. But the main thing getting expressed is this dominant pattern. It needs to change, and that means this person needs to change. But they need to change themselves, and they might not want to.

 

So I say loss is inevitable. If you have a temporary separation now, it may mean you are able to come towards a deeper healing and connection with this person. Or perhaps they'll refuse to change. The best thing you can do for yourself is learn to be whole in their presence, without reacting or becoming emotional, without tuning them out, without trying to get them to change because you have a different opinion. But without letting them put out your light. Be happy, regardless of what they do. Learn to see their suffering as interesting, rather than something that triggers you to try to change it. Learn to hear their complaints not as something that need a solution, but as part of a dance. After all, if it isn't a threat to you, what harm can it do? Stop letting it pose a threat to you.

 

 

Sages and Immortals are largely regular people. They've figured out how to blend into their environment and dissolve the sharp edges of whatever circumstance they happen to be in. Many many people achieve high levels of spiritual attainment without even realizing it, just because they follow the path of least resistance. They don't necessarily see it as a terrible situation - that is relative - so perhaps they don't try to escape.

 

Many trees grow out of cracks in boulders, where their situation is extremely controlled. They don't have freedom to put down roots in all directions. They have scant access to water. Yet they follow the path of least resistance, growing where there is room, with what nourishment is provided. They don't focus on what they are missing, or what the other trees have, they focus on being who they are in the moment.

 

 

You say it is surely a fortune... but is it really? Our lives are so incredibly controlled, and the abundance of wealth and food we have is really a poison, over time causing people to live with slow debilitating diseases, that never existed before, and have congested systems that block true awareness. The list goes on.

 

Why focus so much on what is an ideal way of living? Living is living. Why so much focus on where the grass is greener and who should have what? That is a disease of the mind, and inhibits change. Live in the moment, naturally, where what is right is right in front of you.

 

The Sage lets go of all attachments, even the senses, and exists purely according to their own true nature, without any second guessing.

Thank you so much for this response. The advice you give in regard to the family member seems doable!

 

Like MH said, perspective is everything.

 

In which I go on to say, yes, I completely agree with how it is the way that the mind perceives things that is the key here and only we can change ourselves in that regard.

 

But in response to the grass being greener. I think I would rather eat our poisonous food and have the pretty lights around at Christmas than have no food at all and having to fight for survival. While the latter can get on just fine, on the scale of 1-happy, it doesn't measure up to what I have. I have never been to a third world country, but if they are really feeling wholesome, I would love to know!

 

Our happiness grows when being a part of a community and we grow together with loving, trusting relationships. Those without still have to make do, and still miss that element...

[Daeluin]

Glad to share... I find it so touch and go. Family members are highly sensitized to our tiniest emotional projections, even the ones we don't verbalize, in my experience. Good luck in your journey with this person!

 

For me, simply becoming aware of the extremity of person B's patterns allows me to have compassion for them and really be there for them, without looking down on them, helps me to just flow with them. I think it's really when we lose our composure that we leak our energy out with the frustration. By carefully directing the energy we give to the situation we avoid leaking it out in tainted ways that might fuel the imbalance instead.

 

I think in the end, the scope of a Sage and an ordinary person is so different. The Sage flows like water using humility, and not being above the person, the person does not see fault in them. The Sage maintains this low position by submitting early and using deference, and thus gives without being taken from, and thus has no need to defend from loss.

 

57

 

Govern a country with upright integrity

Deploy the military with surprise tactics

Take the world with non-interference

How do I know this is so?

With the following:

When there are many restrictions in the world

The people become more impoverished

When people have many sharp weapons

The country becomes more chaotic

When people have many clever tricks

More strange things occur

The more laws are posted

The more robbers and thieves there are

Therefore the sage says:

I take unattached action, and the people transform themselves

I prefer quiet, and the people right themselves

I do not interfere, and the people enrich themselves

I have no desires, and the people simplify themselves

58

 

When governing is lackluster

The people are simple and honest

When governing is scrutinizing

The people are shrewd and crafty

Misfortune is what fortune depends upon

Fortune is where misfortune hides beneath

Who knows their ultimate end?

They have no determined outcome

Rightness reverts to become strange

Goodness reverts to become wicked

The confusion of people

has lasted many long days

Therefore the sages are:

Righteous without being scathing

Incorruptible without being piercing

Straightforward without being ruthless

Illuminated without being flashy

59

In governing people and serving Heaven
There is nothing like conservation
Only with conservation is it called submitting early
Submitting early is called emphasis on accumulating virtues
Accumulating virtues means there is nothing one cannot overcome
When there is nothing that one cannot overcome
One's limits are unknown
The limitations being unknown, one can possess sovereignty
With this mother principle of power, one can be everlasting
This is called deep roots and firm foundation
The Tao of longevity and lasting vision

Edited July 16, 2014 by Daeluin

[Daeluin]

As for the grass being greener.... a lot of this is a world-wide separation of the five elements.

 

In very general terms.... fire and wood are expansive and freedom oriented. Water and metal are sinking, compressing and attachment oriented.

 

Earth keeps the first two grounded and keeps the second two from sinking too deep. Earth is truth, integrity, sincerity. On the global level we could use a bit more of it to hold things together.

 

Right now the G8 enjoy freedom and expansiveness at the expense of the lack of freedom and expressiveness of the 3rd world countries. The G8 countries need to self-discipline themselves more and cultivate greater wisdom, thus strengthening the lack of water-earth-metal. The 3rd world countries need to detach from their overwhelmed senses so as to overcome the weight of any attachment to suffering and live the best happy life as possible, cultivating the wood-fire elements and creating greater wholeness with what they have.

 

In one case, the greater balance will create less exploitation. In the other case, the greater balance will create less desire to take the bait of the exploiters.

 

Just one way of seeing it... so many ways. But in the end all about balance and wholeness... be it a person or a construct. Right now it's all out of balance, and that's what causes the suffering. It takes time to heal it - patience and sincerity.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Daeluin