The Sage not acting for reward

[Marblehead]

Lots of questions. No answers. Sorry.

 

Yes, I see what you are saying. The only person physical violence helps is the one applying it. It does not help the one it is being applied to.

 

Regarding the above about the dishes: Reward when the dishes are done but withhold reward if the dishes are not done. Reward always works better than punishment. That has been proven.

 

The father will never be a sage if he has to use punishment or the threat of punishment to get things done. The daughter will never be a sage until she learns how to avoid punishment. (Just like avoiding the rhino's horn.)

[manitou]

When the flexible account is able to adequately deal with the ebb and flow of income vs costs, the savings account can peacefully expand.

 

First of all, can you tell me where you're banking???

 

What a stellar post, Daeluin. Your description of the master attacking the student when he wasn't expecting it reminded me of several Peter Sellers movies, lol.

[manitou]

Wow! What caused Joe to change...radically, if you don't mind me asking?

 

 

Joe finally surrendered to his alcoholism and realized that it had made his life totally unmanageable. He surrendered, threw his hands up, and got to a point in his soul where he finally realized by himself, that his lifestyle was ridiculous.

 

When we were first together, I was new in recovery, and I would physically chase him with my car not to go down to the liquor store and buy more booze. That's how much I knew at that time. He just had to hit his bottom, that's all. There was no way I could 'hit his bottom for him' - he had to see it for himself. As he grew up pretty much an impoverished Native American street kid in New Mexico - his comfort zone was pretty expansive in the sense that he was used to being knocked around forever - mainly doing it to himself, of course - so it took quite a bit for him to say "Enough!"

 

But he finally did. And it was only after I stopped chasing him and trying to "make him sober". That was the co-dependent interaction in motion. He was a bad actor, I would respond. That was the attention he was looking for, and that is what I would give him.

 

It took me going to some Alanon meetings to stop trying to "fix him". To learn to stay in my own lane. So, when I stopped doing the co-dependent dance with him, it threw him into a quandry of having to take responsibility for his own life.

 

No one can do it for you.

[Daeluin]

@Daeluin

 

I'm not convinced. In a practical sense.

 

While being reactive does cause friction, like fighting fire with fire, being placid hardly works any better. I have found engagements in which I have remained calm and yeilding have resulted in the next person getting more annoyed because I don't appear to care.

 

So? That's their problem. Why let it bother you?

 

There is another option...to smile and nod. Quite hard of you're not in agreement...

 

A: I enjoy looking at the flowers

B: I hate the flowers. Why do you have to interrupt me when I'm watching the TV! Shut up

A: Smiles and nods

 

That's the idea!

But don't smile and nod in a dismissive way - that's an interaction. Just maintain centeredness.

 

The whole exchange and reason for the two to be sat together in the first place seems utterly pointless.

 

Often these karmic lessons happen when we don't have a choice. Either these are the people in our family, or these are the relationships we attract when we escape from our family without healing our imbalanced patterns.

 

Now, what if you can't divorce? A is the 16 y/o daughter or B. B goes on to beat her regularly...especially if she doesn't do the dishes!

 

Will tolerance/cultivation make her a sage? Or will standing up for herself, telling pa where to go make her a sage?

 

Shouldn't she get some recognition for doing the dishes, rather than a punch?

 

Good example. I think I've seen at least a few movies in this situation. Winter's Bone is a good one, showing how maintaining equanimity in the face of certain destruction may result in survival.

 

He just had to hit his bottom, that's all.

 

But he finally did. And it was only after I stopped chasing him and trying to "make him sober". That was the co-dependent interaction in motion. He was a bad actor, I would respond. That was the attention he was looking for, and that is what I would give him.

 

It took me going to some Alanon meetings to stop trying to "fix him". To learn to stay in my own lane. So, when I stopped doing the co-dependent dance with him, it threw him into a quandry of having to take responsibility for his own life.

 

No one can do it for you.

 

Exactly this. When the person threatens violence, face up to them with peace. Do not give fight, for the slightest reaction will give them something with which to take as justification for their self-waged war. If there is no interaction, over time they will stop going to you to get a reaction, because they know one won't be found there. A confused and violent person usually isn't sober, and won't want to face the truth this person's equanimity represents to their own un-truths. A lazy petty person might begin to get the hint they're missing something deeper in the other person and actually become more interested in a real, non-reactive exchange.

 

This isn't something new. This is what many peace advocates of our time teach and practice.

 

The key is in not escalating when they do, not becoming a participant in their battle. Did you study the Vinegar Tasters? The taoist has a smile on his face after tasting the cauldron of suffering. The expressions of life are many-fold in their manifestations. By attaching to the polarity of one particular expression we only make it stronger, even when our attachment is against it. Maintain equanimity.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Daeluin

[dawei]

The more this goes on, the less I can see it has anything to do with the TTC sub-forum...

[Marblehead]

The more this goes on, the less I can see it has anything to do with the TTC sub-forum...

Shhhh. Hehehe. They aren't lost yet. They just got side-tracked. But I would agree that it has nothing to do with Textual Studies and could easily be moved to Taoist Discussions.

[Marblehead]

And as if by magic it has been moved to Taoist Discussions.

[Daeluin]

Good point.

 

The question now seems to be...what is the nature of the sage? Seems to me that it is an evolution of mind...maturity at its finest.

 

To yield is to be preserved wholly,

To be bent is yet to be straight,

To be empty is yet to be filled up,

To be worn out is yet to be renewed,

To have little is yet to gain much,

To have much is yet to be perplexed.

Therefor, Sages hold on to nothing but the Tao, thus setting an example for all.

They do not rely upon their eyes;

Therefore, they can watch clearly.

They do not regard themselves always in the right;

Therefore, they can be right in understanding all.

They do not seek credit;

Therefore, their credit remains unmoved.

They do not deem themselves superior;

Therefore, they remain what they are for long.

It is just because they do not compete that no one under Heaven could compete with them.

How could the old saying be idle words -- "To yield is yet to be completely preserved?"

Really, only when True Nature can be fully recovered can we return to the Tao.

Revealing the Tao Te Ching, Hu Xuezhi

Sages do not attach to validation, credit, righteousness, and do not mind wearing themselves out. Sages do not worry about being considered inferior, and do not compete with others. Their yielding allows them to become ever more whole.

[Rara]

Lots of questions. No answers. Sorry.

 

Yes, I see what you are saying. The only person physical violence helps is the one applying it. It does not help the one it is being applied to.

 

Regarding the above about the dishes: Reward when the dishes are done but withhold reward if the dishes are not done. Reward always works better than punishment. That has been proven.

 

The father will never be a sage if he has to use punishment or the threat of punishment to get things done. The daughter will never be a sage until she learns how to avoid punishment. (Just like avoiding the rhino's horn.)

Sounds like answers to me!

[Rara]

 

 

Joe finally surrendered to his alcoholism and realized that it had made his life totally unmanageable. He surrendered, threw his hands up, and got to a point in his soul where he finally realized by himself, that his lifestyle was ridiculous.

 

When we were first together, I was new in recovery, and I would physically chase him with my car not to go down to the liquor store and buy more booze. That's how much I knew at that time. He just had to hit his bottom, that's all. There was no way I could 'hit his bottom for him' - he had to see it for himself. As he grew up pretty much an impoverished Native American street kid in New Mexico - his comfort zone was pretty expansive in the sense that he was used to being knocked around forever - mainly doing it to himself, of course - so it took quite a bit for him to say "Enough!"

 

But he finally did. And it was only after I stopped chasing him and trying to "make him sober". That was the co-dependent interaction in motion. He was a bad actor, I would respond. That was the attention he was looking for, and that is what I would give him.

 

It took me going to some Alanon meetings to stop trying to "fix him". To learn to stay in my own lane. So, when I stopped doing the co-dependent dance with him, it threw him into a quandry of having to take responsibility for his own life.

 

No one can do it for you.

Thank you for sharing. I wonder if he would have gone it alone of you hadn't planted the seed in the first place though. I know nagging gets nothing done though! Haha.

 

But yes, funny. When I had my anger issuses, my gf never tried to stop me yelling and hitting walls. I just saw her upset and that's what made me change. I didn't want that.

 

But then you hear of some people who's friends push their alcoholic buddies into rehab. I don't have any stats on how effective this approach is though.

[Rara]

 

So? That's their problem. Why let it bother you?

 

 

That's the idea!

But don't smile and nod in a dismissive way - that's an interaction. Just maintain centeredness.

 

 

Often these karmic lessons happen when we don't have a choice. Either these are the people in our family, or these are the relationships we attract when we escape from our family without healing our imbalanced patterns.

 

 

Good example. I think I've seen at least a few movies in this situation. Winter's Bone is a good one, showing how maintaining equanimity in the face of certain destruction may result in survival.

 

 

Exactly this. When the person threatens violence, face up to them with peace. Do not give fight, for the slightest reaction will give them something with which to take as justification for their self-waged war. If there is no interaction, over time they will stop going to you to get a reaction, because they know one won't be found there. A confused and violent person usually isn't sober, and won't want to face the truth this person's equanimity represents to their own un-truths. A lazy petty person might begin to get the hint they're missing something deeper in the other person and actually become more interested in a real, non-reactive exchange.

 

This isn't something new. This is what many peace advocates of our time teach and practice.

 

The key is in not escalating when they do, not becoming a participant in their battle. Did you study the Vinegar Tasters? The taoist has a smile on his face after tasting the cauldron of suffering. The expressions of life are many-fold in their manifestations. By attaching to the polarity of one particular expression we only make it stronger, even when our attachment is against it. Maintain equanimity.

I wouldn't like to let anything bother me...but when it's family trying to get a reaction out of me, it's kind of different. I suppose there is a slight fear of losing that family member one way or another. I don't see how there is a problem with having that natural worry. That said, interestingly, in this other situation, that family member still seeks advice from me for help. Always refuses to then take my advice but still comes back for it lol. I am a bit fed up with things going round in circles though!

 

RE Vinegar tasters - Yes I've studied it for a while. I do appreciate its lesson but the reason behind this thread is that I don't see things as black and white as this, especially as some scenarios don't make it so easy.

 

Like one who, karmically if you will, has been born into a terrible life. As a crude stereotype in Africa, starving, perhaps facing rape each day. I think it's a tad unfair to apply the vinegar tasters universally when someone as comfortable as me, who has the freedom to type this from his bed on a Sunday morning, can appreciate the painting much more.

[nestentrie]

Sounds like answers to me!

 

Indeed. Best post I've seen in some time.

[Rara]

The more this goes on, the less I can see it has anything to do with the TTC sub-forum...

No problem. The convo goes where it goes I only stuck it in the TTC section as it refers loosely to the sage described in the text. If you feel this should be somewhere else, that's cool.

[Rara]

and do not mind wearing themselves out.

I like this. Closer to a more practical explanation I think. Steady persistence of tolerating (OP) person B's shortcomings. Not to say that A will just let B carry on, but chip away at forming a wholesome relationship that works for the two of them and grows better over time. Rather than just throwing the oven mits down on the floor and walking out for good!

[nestentrie]

And if you want to talk about chipping away and wearing oneself out (and the 'opponent') it's to talk of this:

 

67

All the world says that, while my Tao is great, it yet appears
to be inferior (to other systems of teaching). Now it is just its
greatness that makes it seem to be inferior. If it were like any
other (system), for long would its smallness have been known!

But I have three precious things which I prize and hold fast. The
first is gentleness; the second is economy; and the third is shrinking
from taking precedence of others.

With that gentleness I can be bold; with that economy I can be
liberal; shrinking from taking precedence of others, I can become a
vessel of the highest honour. Now-a-days they give up gentleness and
are all for being bold; economy, and are all for being liberal; the
hindmost place, and seek only to be foremost;--(of all which the end
is) death.

Gentleness is sure to be victorious even in battle, and firmly to
maintain its ground. Heaven will save its possessor, by his (very)
gentleness protecting him.

[Daeluin]

I wouldn't like to let anything bother me...but when it's family trying to get a reaction out of me, it's kind of different. I suppose there is a slight fear of losing that family member one way or another. I don't see how there is a problem with having that natural worry. That said, interestingly, in this other situation, that family member still seeks advice from me for help. Always refuses to then take my advice but still comes back for it lol. I am a bit fed up with things going round in circles though!

 

Why be afraid of loss, it is inevitable. Why worry? Why get fed up?

 

All of these things describe the threads that tie you all together, yes, but these ties also prevent the true healing of the patterns.

 

When the pressure of the pattern they face builds up, they come and release the pressure by sharing with you. Then they aren't under pressure to change any more, and they repeat whatever caused the pressure in the first place. They need to really face their problem when the pressure builds up.

 

 

RE Vinegar tasters - Yes I've studied it for a while. I do appreciate its lesson but the reason behind this thread is that I don't see things as black and white as this, especially as some scenarios don't make it so easy.

 

The black and whiteness is just about being whole. Naturally it isn't easy. It is all of the little leaks which are hard to see, but incredibly pervasive with their own decades of history, which are hard to identify and seal. The Sage becomes whole because they summon incredible sincerity to change.

 

Like one who, karmically if you will, has been born into a terrible life. As a crude stereotype in Africa, starving, perhaps facing rape each day. I think it's a tad unfair to apply the vinegar tasters universally when someone as comfortable as me, who has the freedom to type this from his bed on a Sunday morning, can appreciate the painting much more.

 

Taoist principles apply even when one is in slavery. The tao may be found in such situations precisely from maintaining equanimity within the situation, without attaching to what is fair or not fair, but using the pressures of the situation as the mechanism for healing. Rebelling from the situation is the use of force, and may be appropriate if the timing is right.

 

But often it is those of us in the harder situations who have the harder karma to unwind. Perhaps our true power would only be abused, given our karmic past, if we were simply handed it.... thus we must earn it by learning to maintain our wholeness even when violence is being forced upon us. Even thought he situation may be extreme, if we are able to maintain balance and centeredness within, we can use the pressures of the situation to heal in such a way that we overcome the energetic ties and patterns attaching us to the harmful situation. But if we react to the situation we maintain our role as a player within the situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are many ways of maintaining equanimity yet still using our voice... if you listen to masters, you may find they tend to answer questions in a rather backwards way, often not answering the question at all, but something buried within the question. Or perhaps they'll let the question slip past them.... often if a question is too direct or blunt, it invites a power struggle, so to answer yes or no is to feed the polarity. So instead the answer they give is something to cleverly and subtly dissolve the polarity, like a koan or something to absorb the unyielding attention of the asker. The asker wants something passionately from the master, so the master feeds them by giving them something not of the master's self, but something that will safely return the seekers attention to their own self.

[GrandmasterP]

+1

Often the actual question implicit from the student to the teacher is....

"Please will you take responsibility for my life?"

 

Effective teachers always answer no.

Really effective teachers have lots of kind ways to say " No".

 

Edited July 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[manitou]

 

But I have three precious things which I prize and hold fast. The

first is gentleness; the second is economy; and the third is shrinking

from taking precedence of others.

 

 

A wonderful translation of the 3 Treasures.

 

Lin Yutang says it slightly differently: Love (gentleness)

Never too much (economy)

Never be the first (shrinking from taking precedence)

[nestentrie]

A wonderful translation of the 3 Treasures.

 

Lin Yutang says it slightly differently: Love (gentleness)

Never too much (economy)

Never be the first (shrinking from taking precedence)

 

Yeah, the guy there can seem lofty.

[manitou]

However it's said and by whichever translator - it is these three things that are a marvelous template within us when we get really serious about all this. This is what is 'aspired for', in one sense - but the strange thing is that it is it is more of an inner elimination of unnecessary tendencies that gets us there.

 

Lose it to gain it.

[Marblehead]

... it is more of an inner elimination of unnecessary tendencies that gets us there.

 

Lose it to gain it.

Okay. You've got that one.

 

The fewer things we decide to worry about the fewer worries we will have.

[manitou]

Okay. You've got that one.

 

I'll take it, lol

[Songtsan]

Why be afraid of loss, it is inevitable. Why worry? Why get fed up?

 

Nothing is lost if nothing is gained...if possession is an illusion, as there is no one there to hold on to anything, then there is also no one to lose or let go of anything...

[Marblehead]

I too love speaking in idealistic terms but then, without warning, reality slaps me aside the face.

[Rara]

 

Why be afraid of loss, it is inevitable. Why worry? Why get fed up?

 

All of these things describe the threads that tie you all together, yes, but these ties also prevent the true healing of the patterns.

 

When the pressure of the pattern they face builds up, they come and release the pressure by sharing with you. Then they aren't under pressure to change any more, and they repeat whatever caused the pressure in the first place. They need to really face their problem when the pressure builds up.

 

 

The black and whiteness is just about being whole. Naturally it isn't easy. It is all of the little leaks which are hard to see, but incredibly pervasive with their own decades of history, which are hard to identify and seal. The Sage becomes whole because they summon incredible sincerity to change.

 

 

Taoist principles apply even when one is in slavery. The tao may be found in such situations precisely from maintaining equanimity within the situation, without attaching to what is fair or not fair, but using the pressures of the situation as the mechanism for healing. Rebelling from the situation is the use of force, and may be appropriate if the timing is right.

 

But often it is those of us in the harder situations who have the harder karma to unwind. Perhaps our true power would only be abused, given our karmic past, if we were simply handed it.... thus we must earn it by learning to maintain our wholeness even when violence is being forced upon us. Even thought he situation may be extreme, if we are able to maintain balance and centeredness within, we can use the pressures of the situation to heal in such a way that we overcome the energetic ties and patterns attaching us to the harmful situation. But if we react to the situation we maintain our role as a player within the situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are many ways of maintaining equanimity yet still using our voice... if you listen to masters, you may find they tend to answer questions in a rather backwards way, often not answering the question at all, but something buried within the question. Or perhaps they'll let the question slip past them.... often if a question is too direct or blunt, it invites a power struggle, so to answer yes or no is to feed the polarity. So instead the answer they give is something to cleverly and subtly dissolve the polarity, like a koan or something to absorb the unyielding attention of the asker. The asker wants something passionately from the master, so the master feeds them by giving them something not of the master's self, but something that will safely return the seekers attention to their own self.

Sorry, I didn't explain clearly. The loss of the family member fear was more about them wanting to argue, to provoke a reaction of seeming like I at least care or agree with their viewpoint. The loss would come from a fallout due to differences in opinion. Not that I want the fallout to happen, this is more a case of this other person doing the whole "if you're not going to be supportive then don't bother talking to me".

 

Now, I'm person A here and they are B. I could smile and nod at their opinion about the way they are living and going about things, and the way they are treating me. I could just be there to listen, therefore showing lack of interest. I could highly oppose them and tell them how I really feel. Each option still comes with their relative negative outcomes.

 

RE your point about slavery. I do agree that there are cognitive, behavioural techniques that can help us deal with terrible situations. Of course, meditation is one. But some of us are born into places where we can access this information on how to put this into practice very easily - others aren't. I mean, I wonder how many slaves end up becoming sages. How much access do they have to wisdom or "masters"?

 

Surely it is a matter fortune that I can live comfortably in England and have such a great support network that can help me on my way. And surely it is not as fortunate to be born into slavery. No matter how much we can tell ourselves that we are ok if in a slave position, it doesn't mean it is true. If anything, one is kidding themselves if they were to deny that there is a better life out there for them...

Edited July 14, 2014 by Rara