This guy sounds enlightened to me.

[Spotless]

 

So so odd (for me) to hear someone explain such a deep and profound experience all analytically and in extreme detail. He does pretty well at explaining the unexplainable, but to me personally explaining the deepest and most profound of experiences (more than just a quick few words) tends to take away from them. I've seen people talk around them in some books, and that tends to work better IMO.

Please visit www.batgap.com

It is Buddha At the gas pump

Interviews with over 200 individuals that have Awakened. Start with the first 200 (lately they have been interviewing "interesting" people but not many awakened ones).

 

I bring up this recommendation because I have been so surprised by responses such as this - and their have been quite a few.

 

This Awakening is new to us here in the West and it is happening now all over the place. Frequently it is happening to those that do not practice at all. The process is not what we think it is - it is very different. We need every moresell of the experience told to us again and again by every type out there.

 

It is common for those reaching this state to seek the advice of doctors - and in the past many may have been put into wards or put through shock therapy - but not for the reasons that you might think.

 

A key feature to the Awakened person is that they are now Awake 7/24 - they no longer lose awareness during sleep. Depending on the particular individual the process of aclimating to Awakening takes several years - though in India we see many accounts of someone awakening (again often without practice) and then going to a cave unable to speak for as many as seven years before they are ready to be "in" the world of men again.

 

We also find here in the West (and perhaps throughout the world) an very real absurd extreme idea as to what sort of person can reach an Awakened state - and obv,iously it's not Bob who was sitting next to me at the last satsang - he's a jerk.

But - Bob it may be - in all his obnoxious glory.

 

Some think the Awakening process brings you to instant omniscience - you now know if anyone in your following is picking their nose and all things have been revealed - no more learning process - simply not so.

 

Awakening is a gigantic step but it is the first step in enlightenment - and it is something that should be normal for us all - it should be a starting point for us at a young age.

 

Please enjoy listening to someone telling you every detail as they experienced it - because it takes it out of the dreamy ideas we have about what it is like, the notions of who can have this change, the ideas we have of "earning" it.

 

What we in the West know nothing about we will readily admit (yea right) but then when someone from our own tells of their experience we cring and don't want to hear it. It sparks jealousy and more than anything - extreme judgement - we want to know what kind of underwear they wear - as though our seal of approval is important.

 

The apple polishers don't always get the prize - and nothing wrong with apple polishers (though I say this with a truck of salt), but what is strikingly evident is that all sorts of people "flip" the switch. It is a good thing to hear of their experience before, during and after and to see the words they come up with to teach what they have to offer. You may not like their choice of words and so this judgement you have can be something for you to work on and indeed they may not be right for you - but we are seeing and hearing teachings from all walks of life that have Awakened.

 

Expose your virgin ears to all forms of these stories - not just the ones from the great masters of the East.

Hear the voice that rails agaist hearing these stories - listen to the analytic buzz - it is a measure of your personality.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Spotless

[BaguaKicksAss]

Please visit www.batgap.com It is Buddha At the gas pump Interviews with over 200 individuals that have Awakened. Start with the first 200 (lately they have been interviewing "interesting people but not many awakened ones). I bring up this recommendation because I have been so surprised by responses such as this - and their have been quite a few. This Awakening is new to us here in the West and it is happening now all over the place. Frequently it is happening to those that do not practice at all. The process is not what we think it is - it is very different. We need every moresell of the experience told to us again and again by every type out there. It is common for those reaching this state to seek the advice of doctors - and in the past many may have been put into wards or put through shock therapy - but not for the reasons that you might think. A key feature to the Awakened person is that they are now Awake 7/24 - they no longer lose awareness during sleep. Depending on the particular individual the process of aclimating to Awakening takes several years - though in Indepia we see many accounts of someone awakening (again often without practice) and then going to a cave unable to speak for as many as seven years before they are ready to be "in" the world of men again. We also find here in the West (and perhaps throughout the world) an very real absurd extreme idea do what sort of person can reach an Awakened state - and obv,iously it's not Bob who was sitting next to me at the last satsang - he's a jerk. But - Bob it may be - in all his obnoxious glory. Some think the Awakening process brings you to instant omniscience - you now know if anyone in your following is picking their nose and all things have been revealed - not more learning process - simply not so. Awakening is a gigantic step but it is the first step in enlightenment - and it is something that should be normal for us all - it should be a starting point for us at a young age. Please enjoy listening to someone telling you every detail as they experienced it - because it takes it out of the dreamy ideas we have about what is like, the notions of who can have this take place, the ideas we have of "earning" it. What we in the West know nothing about we will readily admit (yea right) but then when someone from our own tells of their experience we cring and don't want to hear it. It sparks jealousy and more than anything - extreme judgement - we want to know what kind of underwear they wear - as though our seal of approval is important. The apple polishers don't always get the prize - and nothing wrong with apple polishers (though I say this with a truck of salt), but what is strikingly evident is that all sorts of people "flip" the switch. It is a good thing to hear of their experience before, during and after and to see the words they come up with to teach what they have to offer. You may not like their choice of words and so this judgement you have can be something for you to work on and indeed they may not be right for you - but we are seeing and hearing teachings from all walks of life that have Aepwakened. Expose your virgin ears to all forms of these stories - not just the ones from the great masters of the East. Hear the voice that rails agaist hearing these stories - listen to the analitic buzz - it is a measure of your personality.

 

Very awesome, thank you for this . One of my recent quandaries is whether a non cultivator or non-practitioner can suddenly become awakened. I have seen some folks end up with what people seem to call Siddhis, suddenly, but unfortunatly they often don't fare well since they aren't used to it, it isn't accepted in the place they live in and people they know, and they had no working up to it..

 

OK off to listen to the interviews.

 

Edit to add: Apparently some scrolling is needed, it would be neat to hear what those who aren't trying to sell their several books on the topic have to say, just regular people (which is what I think is neat about the concept of the site, can find those who write books all over).

Edited June 26, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Spotless]

Very awesome, thank you for this . One of my recent quandaries is whether a non cultivator or non-practitioner can suddenly become awakened. I have seen some folks end up with what people seem to call Siddhis, suddenly, but unfortunatly they often don't fare well since they aren't used to it, it isn't accepted in the place they live in and people they know, and they had no working up to it..

 

OK off to listen to the interviews.

 

Edit to add: Apparently some scrolling is needed, it would be neat to hear what those who aren't trying to sell their several books on the topic have to say, just regular people (which is what I think is neat about the concept of the site, can find those who write books all over).

 

 

Bing!

Edit to add: Apparently some scrolling is needed, it would be neat to hear what those who aren't trying to sell their several books on the topic have to say, just regular people (which is what I think is neat about the concept of the site, can find those who write books all over).

 

One of the exciting things about these interviews is precisely this "edit to add"!

 

Many of these interviews were with people with no website, no nothing - they are really still finding their footing in it all.

It is perfectly imperfect and completely chewy just like it spilled on the floor right out of the box.

On the other hand - you have some stupendous teachers telling you the most intimate details of the experience as it happened to them blow by blow.

You even have one guy who woke up at age 4 and has since always been awake 7/24, and he is only just now sharing his story with the world - he has no books - no videos - he has so far been completely accessible and free.

(I don't wish to imply I have any problem with teachers charging money)

Edited June 26, 2014 by Spotless

[BaguaKicksAss]

Bing!

Edit to add: Apparently some scrolling is needed, it would be neat to hear what those who aren't trying to sell their several books on the topic have to say, just regular people (which is what I think is neat about the concept of the site, can find those who write books all over).

 

One of the exciting things about these interviews is precisely this "edit to add"!

 

Many of these interviews were with people with no website, no nothing - they are really still finding their footing in it all.

It is perfectly imperfect and completely chewy just like it spilled on the floor right out of the box.

On the other hand - you have some stupendous teachers telling you the most intimate details of the experience as it happened to them blow by blow.

You even have one guy who woke up at age 4 and has since always been awake 7/24, and he is only just now sharing his story with the world - he has no books - no videos - he has so far been completely accessible and free.

(I don't wish to imply I have any problem with teachers charging money)

 

Awesome .

 

Some folks feel we are all awake when young, but then get brainwashed out of it. Interesting perspective too.

 

Do you feel that this has always been the case, spontaneous awakenings by people who have never practiced, or it is something newer (in the past 50 or 100 years say)?

 

I have always found it fascinating, the people who come in, already having perfect or near perfect recall of their previous life.

[Silent Answers]

 

Awakening is a gigantic step but it is the first step in enlightenment - and it is something that should be normal for us all - it should be a starting point for us at a young age.

 

Exactly...I think a lot of people assume awakening and enlightenment to be the same thing. I noticed somebody commented on you're toast to Dawg with something along those lines...I was going to say this exact quote there, but then decided it wasn't necessary.

 

Back on topic with those BATGP interviews... I subscribe to them on Youtube so I've seen a couple. In general I like hearing the average Joe's experience too. I appreciate the realness and life stories they have to tell.

 

There was a recent one with Bashar....or rather the guy (Darryl Anka) that claims to channel him. You can probably guess my view on that, but what do other people here think of him? The interviewer seemed to enjoy the content but made it clear he doesn't believe in the method. I pretty much agree with that.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Silent Answers

[GrandmasterP]

Darryl gets $75 a head for his stadium gigs.

That is a nice piece of change for Darryl cos Bashar doesn't take a cut.

The lad keeps busy so somebody is paying to hear him.

 

Edited June 26, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Spotless]

Exactly...I think a lot of people assume awakening and enlightenment to be the same thing. I noticed somebody commented on you're toast to Dawg with something along those lines...I was going to say this exact quote there, but then decided it wasn't necessary.

 

Back on topic with those BATGP interviews... I subscribe to them on Youtube so I've seen a couple. In general I like hearing the average Joe's experience too. I appreciate the realness and life stories they have to tell.

 

There was a recent one with Bashar....or rather the guy (Darryl Anka) that claims to channel him. You can probably guess my view on that, but what do other people here think of him? The interviewer seemed to enjoy the content but made it clear he doesn't believe in the method. I pretty much agree with that.

 

I do not listen to the interviews of "interesting" people - just the ones of those Awakened and that is why I recommended listening to the earlier interviews as most of them are specifically of those who have awakened and with regard to those details surrounding the awakening event. You can usually tell in the intro if this is the case or not.

 

Regarding channelling - it is very real and I am adept in it but the subject is of no interest to me other than it is as easy as making pie and typically just an enormous detour and for most people channeling is also a health risk because the beings take over and need the vessel to be at a high vibration so the body is used and abused. I have watched many go drift off into outer space with this stuff - very good people - toasted or entirely taken over. I think GrandP would agree - he also has quit a bit of experience in this.

[Spotless]

 

Awesome .

 

Some folks feel we are all awake when young, but then get brainwashed out of it. Interesting perspective too.

 

Do you feel that this has always been the case, spontaneous awakenings by people who have never practiced, or it is something newer (in the past 50 or 100 years say)?

 

I have always found it fascinating, the people who come in, already having perfect or near perfect recall of their previous life.

Practice comes in many forms, we have always had awakening in people that "have not practiced". All it takes is a moment of disengagement. We also do not have any idea what they may have done in a past life.

 

Cultivation certainly seems to improve the odds.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Spotless

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Spotless, could you give your perspective on what 'Awakening' is, if it is different to 'enlightenment' and, if so, what the difference is.

 

My POV is that not many have achieved full enlightenment and this is very unlikely or even impossible to just happen, but there are sort of checkpoints along the way, which can happen with little apparent cause in ripe people. Also how you pass through them differs in your path - this accounts for some batgap people describing Awakening as clearly different things but all of them being lasting positive shifts, some people have emptiness-style realisations e.g. anatta first while others have luminosity-style realisations first e.g. pure consciousness. From your knowledge and experience is this a fair way of viewing it?

[Owledge]

@Seeker of Tao

It's of course all vague terms. There isn't one fixed threshold or something.

If you attain absolutely "full" enlightenment, you have no identity anymore. So this is an extreme that will only be attainable temporarily through the use of psychdelics.

I am generally careful before judging something, but that one time on ayahuasca, while I don't remember the details of the experience, I do remember my thoughts after coming down a little: 'That's it? Up there, BAM - full enlightenment, understanding everything, and now back down here and life goes on as if nothing has happened? What's the point in reaching for it then? Just to be shown that there's no point?'

 

Also interesting about the word "enlightenment" is that it is used in a seemingly more mundane sense, as in "the Age of Enlightenment". (It's the name of a historical period.) I say it's the same thing, just less severe. Every Eureka!-moment is a small step on the path of enlightenment. Whenever you think: "Ah! I see now!" - that's enlightenment.

 

 

Full enlightenment is fool enlightenment.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Owledge

[Spotless]

Awakening is that step out of suffering and one could call that Enlightenment - there are degrees of Enlightenment.

 

In the West - though this is true everywhere - we like our gods and we like putting them up there so high that we can become professional opinionators on what they are up to and what they think. But most gods are concerned with the kingdom they work in and they are vast but accessible and don't talk with big booming intimidating voices.

 

The Enlightened ones are Awake - one could say this is their key feature.

I have to admit here that I do not remember much regarding what I have read about the different degrees of enlightenment so I cannot talk in that form - but the wisest saying that I have ever heard uttered was from Socrates " the only thing I know is that I know nothing".

 

If an Awakened individual takes that bit of wisdom with him then the growth will be exponential - I do not see an end to the unfolding.

So I am not sure if "reaching enlightenment" is ever possible - or perhaps it has been reached when entering the state of awakeness.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Spotless

[BaguaKicksAss]

@Seeker of Tao

It's of course all vague terms. There isn't one fixed threshold or something.

If you attain absolutely "full" enlightenment, you have no identity anymore. So this is an extreme that will only be attainable temporarily through the use of psychdelics.

I am generally careful before judging something, but that one time on ayahuasca, while I don't remember the details of the experience, I do remember my thoughts after coming down a little: 'That's it? Up there, BAM - full enlightenment, understanding everything, and now back down here and life goes on as if nothing has happened? What's the point in reaching for it then? Just to be shown that there's no point?'

 

Also interesting about the word "enlightenment" is that it is used in a seemingly more mundane sense, as in "the Age of Enlightenment". (It's the name of a historical period.) I say it's the same thing, just less severe. Every Eureka!-moment is a small step on the path of enlightenment. Whenever you think: "Ah! I see now!" - that's enlightenment.

 

 

Full enlightenment is fool enlightenment.

 

Because while the experience doesn't stay, you never for a moment forget it . What has been seen can't be unseen.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Deities still cultivate right?

[Owledge]

Because while the experience doesn't stay, you never for a moment forget it . What has been seen can't be unseen.

But if you see things that way, then what has never been seen also cannot be unseen. Because you are already all-knowing, just limiting yourself, shielding omniscience from your egoic mind. If you look at it more pragmatically, then what has been seen can very well be unseen, by moving it back into the unconscious. We are unseeing all the time in order to function properly on the material plane.

[Spotless]

What was dark is now well lit.

Still room for exploring and learning - in a well lit space with no inertia. In the present.

 

It seems Awakening is Enlightenment - at least in that realm - here the ideas are room for all sorts of fun weighty argument.

 

You can't skip awakening and jump to enlightenment so much of the discussion could be viewed as a Does God Exist discussion.

 

Down where the rubber meets the road - many Enlightened teachers were not breathairians, did not say things like "life is like a waterfall" and did not walk on mysteriously appearing rose petals - they ate, burped and shit and often had "bad habits" and yet it would be very hard to take the title away from them.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Spotless

[C T]

Consider perhaps that seeing and unseeing occurs simultaneously and without a see-er. When the see-er is to the fore of the mind, meaning if one directs awareness to the see-er, then one is observing the see-er, and not that which is being seen.

 

For some, seeing is merely an act of memory recollection, so when someone says something is being seen, what that really means is that there is an attempt to draw out memory from past interactions with a similar object. We all know we cannot cross the same river twice, so to expect to see the same thing repeatedly, even if, for example, that thing is a wall-poster thats been there for years, is a delusion.

 

It is because seeing and unseeing happening simultaneously that freshness is possible, but because people have not been trained to realise this, their minds automatically respond by recollecting similar stored data, give it a label in the process, which leads to the creation of a mind image which leads to the formation of a thought that there are permanent and impermanent objects. In truth, there is no permanency at all in both subject and object, hence the point asserted that arising and ceasing are not two separate happenings but actually one process perceived as two due to mental conditionings.

 

In truth, every time the eyes perceive an object, there is a re-freshing action happening on a cellular level, so every engagement of the senses with an object in actuality is a fresh start from a still point. This makes life interesting and ever-renewable, but only those who take meditation to deeper levels will truly grasp this.

 

It is not easy to grasp due to the conditioned mind's tendency to fluctuate between memory and projection (past & future) by depending on words, names and labels. This dependency is very ingrained and difficult to shift, which is why masters say it takes years to recondition habitual tendencies and rewire reactionary response mechanisms.

 

If one looks at a rose and not try to compartmentalise that looking with name and form, then that looking is present seeing. Some people see a million other roses, plus all the other associated elements, in looking at that one rose, while there are those who would look at a million roses and still think they are only seeing a rose. In the latter way of looking, life can indeed be quite drab and miserable. Same rose, two ways of seeing. Same existence, two different ways of living.

[ChiForce]

I am pretty sure he experienced something however to properly digest the wisdom of this experience would take years if not a decade. I am always intrigued that westerners or Christians experiencing the Kundalini energy would talk about the universe and knowing the universe. With me, I dream about my immediate past life. After I resolved my current life karma, I went on to deal with my past life karma, which is 100x fold more sticky and painful. I didn't see God. I never associated with my kundalini energy rising as love. Is probably left over from his Christian upbringing.

 

I think his experience is genuine but as we all know, you don't just enter into a samadhi once. It should occur to you every time you are meditating. I think he has found his Dharma gate, not enlightened yet. However, his path has been shown to him.

[BaguaKicksAss]

As I understand it, experiences such as this simply mean that one has just *really* started on the path .

[Jetsun]

There are some interesting videos on Batgap, I quite like the Karen Richards one, she was just a normal person who had never even read a spiritual book or done any meditation in her life but had a personal health crisis which woke her up.

 

The whole terminology of awakening is quite new relatively speaking, the basic awakening is awakening to who you really are, which although can be temporarily forgotten when old conditioning is triggered the basis from where your sense of "I" is relating from has fundamentally shifted. But after that happens you still have to deal with all of your conditioning from thousands of life times which still operates on many levels your system, so even if awakening happens there might not be any obvious difference in you on the outside. Then the rest of your life you spend embodying it and bringing that awake space to all of those thoughts and areas within your body which aren't integrated in it, perhaps there is some point where there is nothing left to integrate and that is enlightenment, I don't know.

 

For example one of my teachers said to me that someone like Jeff Foster has had basic awakening but he is yet to fully integrate it into his body, which will come with time and persistence. Adyashanti says the real deep awakening is only when the awake space is brought below the pit of survival rage which is deep in the gut and someone could be awake on the level of mind and even heart before that happens.

 

A year a two ago I probably wouldn't believe all of this awakening stuff as it isn't the traditional way most paths talk about it, but having met a few awakened people in person over the last year myself I now know that it is true and that is the way it is going for many people as Batgap can testify. From meeting those people and having experiences I now even believe in Ekhart Tolle's concept of the "New Earth" how awakening is spreading across the globe and humanity is beginning to flower like a ripe crop, it is just the next stage of evolution or ripening of humanity.

[Owledge]

For example one of my teachers said to me that someone like Jeff Foster has had basic awakening but he is yet to fully integrate it into his body, which will come with time and persistence. Adyashanti says the real deep awakening is only when the awake space is brought below the pit of survival rage which is deep in the gut and someone could be awake on the level of mind and even heart before that happens.

I wonder whether this description is related to the experience I had on ayahuasca. At some point, it felt as if the 'cleaning process' was tugging at a big heavy chunk in my guts, and I believed that if that clot was removed, I'd lose the anchor to physical reality.

Another thought this triggered in me is this: Could this be related to why various nei gung techniques emphasize bringing the energy down after moving it? Because personally I'm kinda torn sometimes. I get an energy-pulsating feeling around my third eye and along my forehead and want it to do its work (if that's what happens) in order to open stuff up there, so I am hesitant bringing it down. Then again, fire in the head could be problematic. But the thing is that it never bothered me. Even if I don't care at all about bringing the energy down (if that even works), I never get headaches or psychoses or anything.

[Spotless]

There are some interesting videos on Batgap, I quite like the Karen Richards one, she was just a normal person who had never even read a spiritual book or done any meditation in her life but had a personal health crisis which woke her up.

 

The whole terminology of awakening is quite new relatively speaking, the basic awakening is awakening to who you really are, which although can be temporarily forgotten when old conditioning is triggered the basis from where your sense of "I" is relating from has fundamentally shifted. But after that happens you still have to deal with all of your conditioning from thousands of life times which still operates on many levels your system, so even if awakening happens there might not be any obvious difference in you on the outside. Then the rest of your life you spend embodying it and bringing that awake space to all of those thoughts and areas within your body which aren't integrated in it, perhaps there is some point where there is nothing left to integrate and that is enlightenment, I don't know.

 

For example one of my teachers said to me that someone like Jeff Foster has had basic awakening but he is yet to fully integrate it into his body, which will come with time and persistence. Adyashanti says the real deep awakening is only when the awake space is brought below the pit of survival rage which is deep in the gut and someone could be awake on the level of mind and even heart before that happens.

 

A year a two ago I probably wouldn't believe all of this awakening stuff as it isn't the traditional way most paths talk about it, but having met a few awakened people in person over the last year myself I now know that it is true and that is the way it is going for many people as Batgap can testify. From meeting those people and having experiences I now even believe in Ekhart Tolle's concept of the "New Earth" how awakening is spreading across the globe and humanity is beginning to flower like a ripe crop, it is just the next stage of evolution or ripening of humanity.

This is a big point:

 

"A year a two ago I probably wouldn't believe all of this awakening stuff as it isn't the traditional way most paths talk about it"

 

People write off these very important steps - we become such "experts" in all the "esoteric" stuff that if it is not a mind boggling shift that takes place to someone who has meditated for super human hours on end then it can't happen. Yet every teacher who has ever spoken on the subject tells us that Awakening is instantly available - it is right before our eyes - it is already with us and all we need is a slight shift in our awareness. The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

Now we immediately go onto a debate as to whether this Awakening is Enlightenment and jump on that circle jerk - which is fine.

What is more interesting is the fine bits of scent now exposed in these interviews regarding the trail we are trying to follow leading to awakening.

 

At the very least we know Enlightenment does not start until you Awaken, and if it is The starting point and the process from then on is one of never ending unfoldment, then it is relatively safe to say it is the point at which one enters the enlightened state or if you have to have your way - the state of the beginning of enlightenment.

 

The younger one is, the easier it is to make these jumps - but the razor sharp write-offs we make when we are younger can obliterate any hope for early jumps. Watching these videos or listening to the podcasts of them really brings the most significant step down to a workable and much more focused present.

 

This is all about Be Here Now

Edited June 27, 2014 by Spotless

[joeblast]

I had to chuckle at 'sounds enlightened'...I read the bit there in the op, and honestly, I've experienced too many similar things to what he describes, and I sure as hell aint enlightened.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Joe,

Truly, I thought that he might be from comparing my own experiences as well, but unfortunately he had a taste and now he is too busy digesting it to remain in it. And I sure as hell ain't enlightened either . Nice to see you have higher standards.

 

It is too bad, but awakening or enlightenment doesn't seem to confer unlimited intelligence, as he still thinks his experience was based in DMT from the pineal gland (not the heart). He kind of missed the boat on that one...although he did mention that his "chest" was expanding at the time...

[Mark Foote]

really, owledge... that pony!

 

I just mentioned the pony in the line above so I could work in edit mode, without the distraction of a carousel pony doing its ups and downs (I'm a little tired tonight!).

 

Gautama mentions extending the mind of compassion in the ten directions to infinity, and says the perfection of such an extension is the realm of infinite ether (the first arupa jhana, or immaterial trance).

 

Lately I'm on a lot about proprioception in equalibrioception-- "with no part of the body left out", a singularity in the sense of location and a freedom of the sense of location to move.

 

More correctly, though, it's got to be all of the senses including touch "with no part left out", where "with no part left out" is the extension of the mind of compassion in the ten directions to infinity. An openness to all parts informing a singularity in the location of awareness.

 

"Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. ...When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture! "

 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, from here)

 

And a relinquishment of volition in activity, self-surrender the object of thought, so that when the wind blows from the realm of infinite ether the limbs can move, so to speak.

 

Or not. I guess the relinquishment of volition is a matter of well-being, the well-being that draws us all as a source of non-material happiness, and whether or not the windy element moves the body is hardly significant. Except to me, because of the lack of doubt I experience in being drawn along.

 

It gets complicated when people like Sasaki claim that they did their misdeeds as a matter of ishinashini, that their hand was will-less. Belief is involved, so although a lot of folks see Zen as somehow beyond reason the fact is that reason doesn't go away and belief is involved, even when volition ceases.

 

More siginificant maybe is the way that the experience of people on the other side of the wall creating motion in the dead tree gives me some faith that it's alright to return to not knowing, because not knowing isn't necessarily not doing.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Mark Foote

[Owledge]

really, owledge... that pony!

 

I just mentioned the pony in the line above so I could work in edit mode, without the distraction of a carousel pony doing its ups and downs (I'm a little tired tonight!).

But you should try watching that pony when you're tired. Like a meditation. See what happens.

 

Actually, I got a video with her that might be an alternative meditation to that: