What can feminism do for men?

[HoldorFold]

Karen Straughan has a pretty decent channel on Youtube where she talks sense about these issues:

A couple of her vids (skip the first few minutes of introductions etc.):

 

 

Edited June 23, 2014 by HoldorFold

[tyler zambori]

Your intentions are very much appreciated, Ms Zambori. Thank you for making it clear what they are.

 

There are overwhelming evidence of women being given the short end of the stick in a lot of matters surrounding their status in society. I agree that women's rights have to be given a voice in any setting, but do you agree there is such a thing as appropriate and inappropriate approach to raise such a voice?

 

The reason im asking is based on my own observation of women's behaviour in the workplace and also out of it, and i have noticed time and time again that some strong, feministic women are superbly skilled in negotiating cooperation among peers and colleagues. These individuals know when and how to use their natural gifts to eke out the best possible leverage to get a job done, to close a sale maybe, and all this without the men having the slightest clue the hidden conviction well in check behind the face. To the keen observer, it can even be said that some of these women are cold, ruthless and immensely intelligent, they have to be in order to always remain one step ahead of their male counterparts. What is quite amazing, i have found, is that these same women were/are extremely mindful to leave their persona tucked away safely in the bottom drawer of their desks as the work day ends.

 

At home, they naturally adopt the role of doting mother, the loving, supportive wife/partner, the strong heart that observes and listens with patience and understanding to family issues, and last but not least, become an equal giver and taker in the love arts. Many times, i have also observed these women happen to have very maternally stable, caring, non-aggressive mothers who somehow unconsciously transfer certain qualities to the children, especially the girl or girls in the nest.

 

In my opinion, what epitomizes a true feminist is their ability to adapt to situations in such a way where the potential of intimidation and inequality are addressed even before these get a chance to rear their heads. It takes a very special set of skills to be able to carry this out, and i feel the majority of those who claim to be feminists have a long way to go in understanding the real meaning of what true feminism represents, and i am saying this because its an observable fact that a lot of so-called feminists are more concerned with making a statement (for one of many eg, retaining underarm hair, and proudly showing it off) than making the effort to develop their natural talents and gifts to the point that they can drop a man, and still get the man to kiss their hand while falling, figuratively speaking.

 

Im only basing these observations on what i have personally observed over a period of about 30 years in the corporate world, many of these spent hopping between East & West. As far the West is concerned, i feel a little disheartened because it seems the women back home (im not a Westerner, btw) fare much better when it comes to getting what they want without having to sacrifice or suppress their charm and natural gifts. On the contrary, some of them have honed these god-given qualities to such an extent that men automatically feel intimidated in their presence, even though there is no apparent reason to justify such a reaction.

 

Your thoughts?

 

So according to you, women can be feminist but the right way to do it is to be ever so meek about it,

and not let the men even know. Did women get the right to vote by doing things that way? No.

 

I may not have been clear enough - I put out the question " what can feminism do for men," not

what can feminist women do for men, if they do it the way that does not upset men.

 

I see that not many even want to think about it, but I'm not surprised.

[tyler zambori]

Nice cardigan on that guy in the last piccie, you have my wardrobe of choice right there.

I always suspect threads with 'feminism' in the title.

With the best will in the world no doubt, even if they aren't begun to have a pop at women then pretty soon that's how they all seem to end up.

Before she retired my first Doctoral supervisor was Prof Miriam David who wrote 'Personal and Political: Feminisms, Sociology and Family Lives'.

( She was retiring anyway, it wasn't my doing! ).

Miriam came up with the idea of 'waves' of feminism hence 'feminisms'.

She was part of that 'first wave' and acknowledged that early feminism was white, middle class, university educated and tended to exclude women of colour and working class women whilst, along the way; alienating men.

Second wave was better, early battles were won and women no longer had to give up a career path when they married.

Third wave is about where most of us, hopefully; are now - treating with people irrespective of gender.

Everyone is acknowledged to have the self same rights and responsibilities.

Post- feminism is great fun but maybe still too fluid and baggy to be easily defined.

"Feminism" as a bare descriptor is a bit like the term 'Political Correctness' in that whenever you hear anyone using either term you can pretty much guarantee that the next thing out of their mouth will be disparaging.

All they are doing is situating themselves whilst saying nothing at all of merit on the subject in hand due to insufficiently thoughtful definition of terms.

grandmaster P,

 

If another word was found, there would soon be complaints about that one too, because imo it's not about the word.

 

For example, it's not "poiltically correct" to use the N word in front of black people. Ok, anybody with

any degree of compassion or feeling for a fellow human being would not use the word anyway.

The political correctness is for those who don't have that degree of compassion or feeling for a

fellow human being. So then they complain about it as something bad, when in reality the problem

is with them. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Marblehead]

Well, even though Y'all are right back at the male/female thing again at least this time it is more civilized.

 

I'm not a political person so its correctness hasn't interferred in my life much at all.

[tyler zambori]

marblehead said:

But then if one were to consider that Yang is Earth and Yin is Heaven one would have to say that women operate at a higher level than do men. Remember Earth follows Heaven?

 

I think we should stop separating out people as being more yin or more yang. That's what I think.

 

 

You likely find this interesting because it stands true to reality.

And yes, many men should be more YIn and many women should be more Yang.

And true, when we "return" we are returning to Yin, the place of rest and peace. To the Valley Spirit, if you will.

 

Thank you marblehead . I found an interesting book on Amazon:

"The Secret Tao: Uncovering the hidden history and meaning of Lao Tzu"

 

Right in the preface the author says: "The philosophy of Lao Tzu is ardently anti-civilization, and curiously pro-female."

 

I may have to go off and read that, once I buy it.

 

It makes one wonder how much these Yang-embodiment worshippers really understand.

Edited June 23, 2014 by tyler zambori

[tyler zambori]

Well, even though Y'all are right back at the male/female thing again at least this time it is more civilized.

 

I'm not a political person so its correctness hasn't interferred in my life much at all.

 

And I'm trying to veer it towards actually looking at the Tao te Ching.

[Marblehead]

Thank you marblehead . I found an interesting book on Amazon:

"The Secret Tao: Uncovering the hidden history and meaning of Lao Tzu"

 

Right in the preface the author says: "The philosophy of Lao Tzu is ardently anti-civilization, and curiously pro-female."

 

I may have to go off and read that, once I buy it.

 

It makes one wonder how much these Yang-embodiment worshippers really understand.

That would likely be an interesing read.

 

And I do agree with that quote although I wouldn't use the word "ardently".

 

I love talking about Taoism. Hehehe. And Yin/Yang is a tricky concept.

[Marblehead]

And I'm trying to veer it towards actually looking at the Tao te Ching.

If you don't have many translations of the TTC then check this site out: http://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/t.html

[HoldorFold]

I saw this on "Yahoo Answers" and found it quite funny. Thought I'd share here:

 

Would this be a good feminist solution?

 

I've noticed that traditional feminine characteristics are looked down upon in feminism and these characteristics are biologically associated with increased estrogen.

Other characteristics such as aggressiveness, focus and drive are favorable for women and these are biologically associated with increased testosterone.

It would logically follow that a good solution would be to inject testosterone into females at an early age to imbue them with these characteristics. This may lead to the development of male sexual organs, however a workaround could be that we grow babies in test tubes.

In the end there would only be biological males on the planet, but then everyone would exhibit these favorable behavioral traits and there would be no biological foundation for traditional feminine behaviors as we could eradicate estrogen from the earth. At this point feminism would have reached it's pinnacle with no more traditional feminine impetus in our species!

[Marblehead]

And then all the males would kill each other because there are no females to keep us mellow and that would be the end of the human species.

 

Good solution. Give the planet back to the other animals.

[HoldorFold]

And then all the males would kill each other because there are no females to keep us mellow and that would be the end of the human species.

 

Good solution. Give the planet back to the other animals.

 

Beautifully put, I hope the irony is not lost on anyone

[manitou]

 

Beautifully put, I hope the irony is not lost on anyone

 

Agreed. The whole problem started when the damn monkeys started talking.

[tyler zambori]

Ahem. Here's something else on chapter 6 and feminism, or the importance

of the female:

 

http://www.adishakti.org/_/tao_te_ching_doorway_of_the_mysterious_female_is_there_within_us_all_the_while.htm

 

 

 

"The reader will notice in the many passages where Lao-tzu describes the Master, I have used the pronoun 'she' at least as often as 'he.' The Chinese language doesn't make this kind of distinction; in English we have to choose. But since we are all, potentially, the Master (since the Master is, essentially, us) I felt it would be untrue to present a male archetype, as other versions have, ironically, done. Ironically, because of all the great world religions the teaching of Lao-tzu is by far the most female."- Stephen Mitchell

 

and:

 

 

According to Ellen M. Chen's translation,"of all the ancient classics still extant, the Tao Te Ching alone draws its inspiration from the female principle."Its profound inclusion of the feminine divine is in fact essential to its core teaching. As Karyn Lai points out in an introduction to the TTC's environmental philosophy: its basic tenor"is that a more complete life for all forms of existence can be achieved only through a full appreciation of the connectedness of all beings."

 

Does this mean that women should be the boss of men? No.

Does this mean that men should be the boss of women? No.

 

Loosk to me like it means we must all come to a fuller appreciation

and embodiment of the female principle with ourselves.

 

[Brian]

 

Agreed. The whole problem started when the damn monkeys started talking.

Or started using typewriters.

 

It all happened so long ago that it is hard to tell which happened first...

[manitou]

Or started using typewriters.

 

It all happened so long ago that it is hard to tell which happened first...

 

 

Don't say that. The first machine I learnt to use was a Gestetner machine, lol.

[GrandmasterP]

' Baby' Brother Manual Portable typewriter here.

It was super reliable, had it serviced just once in twenty- some years.

Always used one of those correction strip ribbons to overtype my many typos.

I lugged that baby everywhere right up until laptops came in.

When they did that was akin to the invention of moveable type.

A real gamechanger.

Edited June 23, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[tyler zambori]

Pardon me, I made an error. This forum is full of a bunch of clowns.

On other spiritually oriented fourms, people actually want to talk about

spirituality.

 

My s/o, a man, said to me: If you call it the Tao Bums, what will you

get? Bums!

[GrandmasterP]

grandmaster P,

 

If another word was found, there would soon be complaints about that one too, because imo it's not about the word.

 

For example, it's not "poiltically correct" to use the N word in front of black people. Ok, anybody with

any degree of compassion or feeling for a fellow human being would not use the word anyway.

The political correctness is for those who don't have that degree of compassion or feeling for a

fellow human being. So then they complain about it as something bad, when in reality the problem

is with them. Do you see what I'm saying?

 

Yep and I totally agree with you there Tyler Zamboni.

[tyler zambori]

I'd delete this thread now if I could. I regret coming back here at all.

[Marblehead]

Ahem. Here's something else on chapter 6 and feminism, or the importance

of the female:

And to add a little fuel to the flames here, let's consider this:

 

Tao gave birth to One.

 

What gender gives birth?

[Marblehead]

It all happened so long ago that it is hard to tell which happened first...

I think the egg was first.

[Marblehead]

Pardon me, I made an error. This forum is full of a bunch of clowns.

On other spiritually oriented fourms, people actually want to talk about

spirituality.

 

My s/o, a man, said to me: If you call it the Tao Bums, what will you

get? Bums!

Hey! We're spiritual. We even have ghosts and bigfoots running around in here.

[liminal_luke]

Is it a good thing when people stand up and demand to be treated with respect and equality? Damn straight. That said, folks who´ve been systematically traumatized and oppressed across generations don´t always know how to start their revolution gracefully. Sometimes in their unresolved anger they stumble a little. Ultra orthodox Jews, their hearts still inflamed with the tragedy of the halocaust, occupy the west bank. Gay men, their hearts deeply damaged by the shame and enforced isolation of homophobia, struggle at times to sort out intimacy and sex. And feminists, well, they´re not perfect either.

 

Doesn´t mean the cause isn´t ultimately a good one. It just takes a little while for these things to work themselves out.

 

Liminal.

[Aetherous]

Wow. In my opinion, the term Nazi should only be used for self-professed fascists. Perhaps you are referring to the Radical Feminist movement of the 1960's and '70;s, which has now faded. I was too young to be involved in that, in the 1960's and '70's.

 

"The Patriarchy" most certainly does exist, unless you mean it in the sense that this plane of existence is all MAYA.

 

So here are some thoughts about femininazism:

 

why I hate the term ‘feminazi’

http://lipmag.com/opinion/why-i-hate-the-term-feminazi/comment-page-1/

 

If someone is a legitimate feminist, aiming for proper (basically equal rights) treatment of women, I would never call them a feminazi. They are the furthest thing from that.

 

Whatever goes beyond that is fair game, though...because it actually is fascist and radical. The Radical Feminist movement may have been strong back in the day, but it's influenced the majority's view of feminism in general today...many "feminist" views are too extreme today. As the article says, the term is definitely intended to shut those people up. I do believe they need to stop their crusade and rethink a more sensible approach.

 

There is no actual patriarchy in my view, especially today...I guess we can just disagree. No use continuing back and forth; "I disagree", "so do I", "good because I truly disagree", etc. If we have "proof" we could present that. For instance, Hillary Clinton was recently Secretary of State and also a Senator and is likely running for President next time around (I fearfully suspect she's going to win). Lots of places have female authority figures...for instance schools, or various jobs, or police departments. In my perspective, there is a lot of women running things...especially in most homes and families, women make most of the decisions over men. I actually believe we live in a kind of matriarchy, especially considering how our culture and the law in our society treats women versus men, rather than having equality, or a preferential treatment of men.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to be a "bum" toward you or try to make you feel unwelcome, Tyler. You are welcome here. This is just people disagreeing...no negativity.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Aetherous

[Marblehead]

 

Anyway, I don't mean to be a "bum" toward you or try to make you feel unwelcome, Tyler. You are welcome here. This is just people disagreeing...no negativity.

Just for emphasis.