What can feminism do for men?

[Yascra]

If it is, I say that's a somewhat warped view of entitlement. Entitlement is something for nothing. When you put effort into something, into someone, and that doesn't get returned... then... I don't know what it is, but that's what happens.

 

So you think that every girl is basically a prostitute (hey, it is not "something for nothing", it is "something for something else"), so if you spend money on her with this you automatically get the right to fuck her...?

 

Maybe get a rubber doll?

 

Is the conclusion of your post now that you got rid of the advice of your mother to find a good partner and you took a sexmachine that's not using her brain too much or what exactly did you try to express?

 

Btw, nobody says there are no stupid girls outside who'll fuck guys who are not good for them, and other way round.

My ex-partner had even had a partner who wanted so much sex that finally HE was exhausted, lol, although he really was a sex addict who couldn't do without masturbation for more than half a day... and still he didn't get the lesson that demand, demand, demand is not how you'll get a great partnership, neither great sex.

That's the problem with guys like you, you know. Why not visit a prostitute and then start looking for a partner out of a relaxed state instead of motivated by some sexual urges? Do whatever you wish with a partner who is okay with that, as long as you're willing and able to afterwards pay for the products of what you're doing, I would say (and yes, it is the woman who will lateron have to make the hard decision for or against abortion if there should evolve products of sex that don't fit into your way of life, and might well loose a part of her physical health should she decide to give birth).

 

Well, honestly, I didn't get whether you now got your "class two girl" instead of looking for the "class one girl" your mother advised you to look for. Hey, I am a female and a spiritual cultivating person. Guess how hard it is to find a MALE partner who cultivates his body AND mind. Tbh, I don't search amongst humans any more .. if you're a little bit sensitive you notice very fast whether someone will be good for you or not .. and greedy and selfish persons are rarely good for you, no matter what the sex/gender is.

That's why I tend to like to have contact to cultivated persons, you know, no matter how far away they are .. because an exchange of energies does really not depend so much on the physical distance, and this kind of a connection to some good person or cultivators out there is still better than being close to a non-cultivator in a physical sense.

 

It is ALWAYS hard to find people who have a good character, which would be valuing hard work etc. But, honestly .. you say "if I put in something, I want something out of it" .. in other words .. you are looking for a prostitute, not for someone who values your character .. and a relevant part of your motivation seems to be sexual greed. Hey, it's okay if you're a worse person than what your mother wanted you to become, you know. But, honestly .. this attitude of yours is exactly what would motivate me to stick away from a guy like you should we meet in real life. A sensitive person just notices that someone else thinks he has a right to do to their body what s/he would like to, and the question is just, to what degree you will be willing and practicing violence to get it. Psychological pressure you've already tried to play out, and most girls who are not very aware they are NOT prostitutes will be impressed by it...but be assured, if you want prostitute-like sex, that will hardly ever be GREAT sex.

I doubt that this way and with this ideas of what you think is your right to "get", you'll get someone with a good character .. because a good character is simply not what you offer, and a good character also doesn't seem to be what you are looking for.

 

There are prostitutes, there are pron vids, there are rubber dolls and other toys to give your body relaxation, if wasting energy is the only way for you to relax your body. It's really not the duty of any other human being.

 

Btw.. if you'd like to get something like me - no, I did already get that you're not interested in having a partner who is strong, interested in self-cultivation and working on being a good person in way that's beyond "always being nice" - you would well have to accept that I might spend some time with people, and they might like to start calling this a relationship etc .. but well, if I'd like to have sex with some other guy, we will need long talks until you accept that no girl-friend's vagina is something you own. If she wants to get something from someone else, why should you have any right to forbid that .. you don't own her genitals.

Same way other way round of course, as long as "we" don't end up poor because he has to pay for a dozen children out there (yes, Sex can have consequences, and on an energetical level it almost always will as well, so don't fuck persons who are bad for you; not even to talk about things like AIDS). I don't get all this "ownership" stuff in relationships.. what's the problem if a person you love has fun with someone else? If it's a good relationship it shouldn't take damage from that ..and why not wish all the best and all the greatest experiences to a person you sincerely love?

 

Btw.. I do know girls who maybe would make a partner for people like you. You would end up hurting each other in the long run, but as long as you're both happy with having some sex... well. Anyway .. even for getting those girls it might be of advantage if you would spend a little thought on the question that: Maybe a woman will be more interested to have sex with you if she gets the feeling that she will GET something great by having sex with you, and not that she will have to serve your wishes as kind of a prostitute. There are girls out there who are way more interested in having sex than in having a great relationship as well .. but these girls also want to have their fun and joy out of it, and not serve some boring guy who just wants to have the living counterpart of a rubber doll.

Your words sound like you fit the latter category. Maybe think about it.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yascra

[Seth Ananda]

Of course sexual neglect and objectification both suck, I'm just saying that neglect sucks more.. Hence, many people would still prefer negative attention to no attention at all. Or "all PR is good PR."

No, not getting sex, your 'neglect' is insignificant in comparison to what objectification and its effects cause, which have their root in slavery. Slavery of half our population. Thats not a straw man argument.

My simple point was that if he had received some empathy, understanding and counseling, then his kamikaze violence could have been prevented.

Not how you worded it. your simple point was:

"But the more they get ignored, dismissed and even further marginalized, the more they will implode.."

 

Your simple point blames women. Women ignore them and so on which is why they will implode...

Ironically, he became so despondent because he felt like no one (especially girls) appreciated his value as a "virtuous" gentleman. Instead, he felt judged and devalued by inborn attributes "out of his control." He felt hopelessly worthless simply due to being born by mistake, short, weak-looking and bullied. In short, he felt like a born loser with an extreme case of "unsolvable" teen angst.

So he decided to Kill, and set out to kill women? Based on a well developed sense of unmet entitlement to women's bodies.

But again, good counseling/healing the roots of his violence could have helped resolve them in a healthy, peaceful manner. Which is what I was advocating.

Well he was seeing a psych professional if I remember right.

Another strawman followed by "manly" threat for good measure? Woa, I must have been hitting close to home, there fella! Sorry?

I thought you would appreciate a 'Manly' response... But to be fair, I miss read the meaning of your question. Edited June 24, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[Sloppy Zhang]

So I said:

 

When you put effort into something, into someone...

 

And you respond with:

 

So you think that every girl is basically a prostitute (hey, it is not "something for nothing", it is "something for something else"), so if you spend money on her with this you automatically get the right to fuck her...?

 

And you cut straight to a monetary/prostitution example.

 

Could you please tell me how you arrived at that conclusion?

 

Is the conclusion of your post now that you got rid of the advice of your mother to find a good partner and you took a sexmachine that's not using her brain too much or what exactly did you try to express?

 

That no one is perfect. And when you accept people for people, suddenly a whole new world opens up.

 

A world that, interestingly enough, leads to many cultivation opportunities

 

That's the problem with guys like you, you know. Why not visit a prostitute and then start looking for a partner out of a relaxed state instead of motivated by some sexual urges?

 

What fascinates me is how quickly a male's desire to find a partner is reduced to a physical need.

 

Maybe men (I) am looking for something more than *just* a physical sex release?

 

But maybe a, dare I say, enlightened relationship does not, in my humble opinion, preclude the possibility of amazing physical sex.

 

And yet, as soon as I utter those words, I am met with a daring accusation that all I am after is a prostitute. How did we reach that conclusion?

 

Well, honestly, I didn't get whether you now got your "class two girl" instead of looking for the "class one girl" your mother advised you to look for.

 

Who said anything about "class one" and "class two"? Who is ranking whom in this scenario?

 

But, honestly .. you say "if I put in something, I want something out of it" .. in other words .. you are looking for a prostitute, not for someone who values your character ..

 

And yet, in any other of life it's completely reasonable.

 

"I am an athlete looking for a sports program that values hard athletics."

"I am a student looking for an academic program that values hard studying."

"I am a person looking for another person who values my work in personal betterment."

 

Oh, wait, is that last one a prostitute? This is a new concept for me, sorry.

 

and a relevant part of your motivation seems to be sexual greed.

 

Greed? No. Desire? Yes. Just as I "desire" spiritual realization. Just as I "desire" mental and emotional fulfillment. And yet, the entire package is reduced to sex and subsequently perverted. A real tragedy, imo.

 

I doubt that this way and with this ideas of what you think is your right to "get", you'll get someone with a good character .. because a good character is simply not what you offer, and a good character also doesn't seem to be what you are looking for.

 

I must be really unlucky because all of my friends and relationships seems to be with good people!

 

And here I am just looking for a prostitute. D'oh!

 

There are prostitutes, there are pron vids, there are rubber dolls and other toys to give your body relaxation, if wasting energy is the only way for you to relax your body. It's really not the duty of any other human being.

 

Again, reducing everything to sex. Which is a little weird, because it sounds like that's what you're AGAINST.

 

Some of us are looking for more than *just* sex. Is sex included? Yes. Is sex the end goal? No.

 

Please do not reduce the entirety of a human being to their "greed" for "sex". Thank you

 

but well, if I'd like to have sex with some other guy, we will need long talks until you accept that no girl-friend's vagina is something you own. If she wants to get something from someone else, why should you have any right to forbid that .. you don't own her genitals.

 

Let's flip the script.

 

If I'm with a girl and suddenly I want to get something from somewhere else, should I be able to?

 

Maybe my Christian upbringing is to blame, but maybe I'd like a relationship where, when I'm with a woman, I don't *want* any other woman. And maybe, I want to be with a woman who wants me so much she doesn't want to be with another man.

 

Maybe it's not about possessiveness. It's about the feeling which I would like to exist between the two of us.

 

Or maybe I'm just thinking of my checkbook and how many 0's the prostitute needs...

 

I don't get all this "ownership" stuff in relationships.. what's the problem if a person you love has fun with someone else? If it's a good relationship it shouldn't take damage from that ..and why not wish all the best and all the greatest experiences to a person you sincerely love?

 

Maybe the reason you don't "get" it is because YOU are looking for ownership, and there's nothing to "get" because ownership isn't part of the equation

 

Btw.. I do know girls who maybe would make a partner for people like you

 

Yes, you seem to know a lot about "people like me."

 

Maybe a woman will be more interested to have sex with you if she gets the feeling that she will GET something great by having sex with you, and not that she will have to serve your wishes as kind of a prostitute. There are girls out there who are way more interested in having sex than in having a great relationship as well .. but these girls also want to have their fun and joy out of it, and not serve some boring guy who just wants to have the living counterpart of a rubber doll.

Your words sound like you fit the latter category. Maybe think about it.

 

This sounds an awful lot like *I* am being the prostitute for *them*

 

Compare: these girls want to have fun and joy out of it, not serve some boring guy who just wants to have the living counterpart of a rubber doll

Compare: these guys just want to have fun and joy out of it, not serve some boring girl who just wants to have the living counterpart of a rubber doll

 

Huh.

[Seth Ananda]

I had a somewhat long response typed up but [edit: this one turned out long anyway just meandering thoughts I guess]... I've been involved in these threads before the regular players probably know what's going to come next...

 

I used to be a beta male [still am at my core]. Was predominantly raised by a mother who encouraged me to find women of value and quality because why waste your time on anything less?

 

After 21 years of celibacy and never finding the right girl, I took a good hard look at reality. Separate from dogma, "common sense," superstition, and the culmination of all three, political correctness.

 

Was I "entitled" to women's bodies? I don't know. I believed my parents that if I worked hard and was a good person, I'd meet someone who was of a similar mindset to me. Is that entitlement? Is it entitlement to want a partner who meshes with you on all levels (physicality included, but not reduced to physicality)? Is it entitlement to, say, put effort into a relationship and be sad, and maybe a little bit angry, when it doesn't come out on the other side?

 

If it is, I say that's a somewhat warped view of entitlement. Entitlement is something for nothing. When you put effort into something, into someone, and that doesn't get returned... then... I don't know what it is, but that's what happens.

 

Part of it is upbringing. I was raised predominantly by a mother who said if you work hard and are a good guy the right girl is going to be there, someone who worked as hard as you and who is as good a person as you. Is that rape culture? If it is, that's a somewhat warped view of women identifying with their patriarchal oppressors.

 

And then you take these guys, don't do drugs, don't drink, never got into trouble, stayed in school ("nerds"), are very nice and genuine, and then you.... what? Shrug them off because, oh, girls just want to have a little fun? Because a guy with a regular job is "boring," because a guy who's never done pot is "in his shell," who goes to bed early to get to the gym and go to his job an "old man"?

 

Is it entitlement to want a girl who will appreciate your hard work, not sleep around on you, is smart, fit, and has similar values to you? I don't know.

 

Is it entitlement, is it "throwing a fit" to be angry and frustrated when you don't get that, and when you see woman after woman line up with not the best guys because "oh he's fun" and "oh she's going through her bad boy phase"?

 

I don't know. But it's a little bit weird to be calling that entitlement.

 

Tl;dr work out be a man learn how to flirt dress well tease women get laid.

Hmm it could be case by case.

 

Australia is full of self described 'good men', 'good blokes' and many of them are just dickheads. Many resultantly have no success with women.

As for women wanting 'fun times', well what women want is there prerogative, and I am not going to make assumptions about what they want, or risk coming off like a dickhead myself.

 

As for the good boy/bad boy dynamic that PUA's love to obsess about, it is fairly fictitious. I hate to use the language, but I know women who are '9's' or '10's' who live with quiet gentle men, and a host of other combinations. It becomes a self fulfilling mindset, seeing the world that way. When you see a 'hot' woman with a cocky bastard you go, "look! There is the Proof!" And just ignore 90% of the rest of the relationships in the world.

 

And who cares if a woman wants to be with a cocky risky bastard? Maybe she wants to live a little, and when she meets 'good' guys, or nice guys, she gets that ~ 'I want to make you my wife and have babies' vibe?

 

So your advice is to trick them instead? Look at what they go for and emulate that? Wow! So being honest and yourself just went out the window. Are you sure you are the good person you profess to be?

 

On that subject, I know fairly 'unattractive' males, who are very good men, some who are low earners, but have big hearts and express themselves honestly, and who nearly always have wonderful partners...

 

I believe all humans respond best to big heartedness and open honesty.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Seth Ananda

[Nungali]

Maybe my Christian upbringing is to blame, but maybe I'd like a relationship where, when I'm with a woman, I don't *want* any other woman. And maybe, I want to be with a woman who wants me so much she doesn't want to be with another man.

 

Yes, many people do that, I have seen both the happily played out and the failed dynamic. You are right, it might be placed within context of a Christian upbringing. But for me that means that everything a man wants in a woman ... needs be supplied by that woman and visa versa.

 

Some times its best to interact with people on the level that we can interact with them . I dont know how many failed relationships I have seen due to one not meeting the others expectations and original assumptions (or delusions).

 

I think it is a big mistake to go into a relationship or even seek one where one person supplies everything. Initially, intense relationships start off as a type of soul mirror and the other person ....

 

<changes music to Vangelis ... adjusts lighting, que heavenly choir >

 

.... eventually, for many, when the 'drugs' wear off other 'traits' become more noticeable.

 

What happens then ... when the one we love and 'would do anything for' has a need that 'the one and only' cant fulfill?

 

Hmmm, someone asked me about 'love' before ...

[Seth Ananda]

But back to objectification, I hazard that it has created most of the problems between men and women.

 

If a Man {a human} is relating to a Woman {an object} with al the insidious undercurrents that go along with that, how can something healthy emerge?

The man has a twisted view of the woman. She is there to fulfil him, she owes him something, if he does/says the right thing he will get sex.

 

The woman has a twisted view of herself. Do I meet his Ideal of woman?, do I have to please him?, If we hook up will that make me a slut? I like him, but what will being with him do to my self esteem {Based on external values}?

 

Im sure there is a heap more, but this is the dynamic that Feminism is trying to fix.

 

Strip all the hideous cultural trappings off so humans can just meet other humans and be real with each other.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hmm it could be case by case.

 

Well that's no fun It's almost as if you're saying every human is an individual so we can come up with as many different cases as there are humans on earth! (and maybe beyond ) that's just crazy

 

Australia is full of self described 'good men', 'good blokes' and many of them are just dickheads. Many resultantly have no success with women.

 

How do you define "dickhead"?

 

Maybe it's a little bit different in the states, but a "good man" is very hard to confuse with a "dickhead".

 

As for women wanting 'fun times', well what women want is there prerogative, and I am not going to make assumptions about what they want, or risk coming off like a dickhead myself.

 

Can the same be said for men? What men want is their prerogative?

 

Or is what men want misogynist? An aspect of rape culture? Can we make the same statement of men? If not, why not?

 

Genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on this.

 

As for the good boy/bad boy dynamic that PUA's love to obsess about, it is fairly fictitious. I hate to use the language, but I know women who are '9's' or '10's' who live with quiet gentle men, and a host of other combinations. It becomes a self fulfilling mindset, seeing the world that way. When you see a 'hot' woman with a cocky bastard you go, "look! There is the Proof!" And just ignore 90% of the rest of the relationships in the world.

 

I'm not a fan of the "good boy/bad boy" nomenclature.... on the surface.

 

I think the dynamic does speak to under the surface traits which should be examined.

 

Namely, bad boys tease, they aren't so eager to please, they can act dismissive of women, they tend not to put one woman on a pedestal (or do that to women in general).

 

A "good boy" can learn to emulate these traits without being a dickhead/asshole/jerkboy.

 

And who cares if a woman wants to be with a cocky risky bastard? Maybe she wants to live a little, and when she meets 'good' guys, or nice guys, she gets that ~ 'I want to make you my wife and have babies' vibe?

 

Yeah, that's fine too.

 

But maybe some gentleman does not want to have babies with a woman with a particularly lurid sexual history.

 

And that's not to be possessive of any woman or demonize sexuality or any of the sexual acts she may have been involved in with any number of men of varying traits. It's purely a matter of personal preference. Perhaps even a prerogative.

 

So your advice is to trick them instead? Look at what they go for and emulate that? Wow!

 

See to me, the first and the second sentences are completely different.

 

If I know a girl is interested in the opera, I'll take her to see the opera. Is that tricking her? I don't think so.

 

If I don't like the opera, but take her anyway, is that disingenuous? I don't think so. Maybe I am doing something for her because I want her to have a good time.

 

But wait, maybe she might blow me on the way home. So, does that mean it's transactional? Per Yascra's arguments above, that means I'm really just looking for a prostitute. But, I like this girl. Or at least, I thought I did. Well sheesh, now I'm just depressed. Maybe the rape culture got me and I don't know it?

 

But seriously, it's quite the conundrum.

 

So being honest and yourself just went out the window. Are you sure you are the good person you profess to be?

 

Again I find these sentences somewhat at odds. Do not we do this in every other interpersonal interaction?

 

I speak with you differently than I speak to my boss, my friend, my lover, my cohort, my captain, my sex slave, and so on...

 

"being honest," "being yourself" are such loaded concepts built by society.

 

And let's not even get talking about privilege!

 

I remember in an old thread, guys would say "just be yourself and you'll find a girl." And someone would respond "well what if being myself means I have a video game addiction and a furry fetish." Well shit, now any form of modifying self presentation becomes disingenuous and wrong!

 

Okay, extreme example. But I hope you get me

 

On that subject, I know fairly 'unattractive' males, who are very good men, some who are low earners, but have big hearts and express themselves honestly, and who nearly always have wonderful partners...

 

I believe all humans respond best to big heartedness and open honesty.

 

I agree, but it's not always the response that one expects or desires.

[Sloppy Zhang]

But back to objectification, I hazard that it has created most of the problems between men and women.

 

If a Man {a human} is relating to a Woman {an object} with al the insidious undercurrents that go along with that, how can something healthy emerge?

The man has a twisted view of the woman. She is there to fulfil him, she owes him something, if he does/says the right thing he will get sex.

 

The woman has a twisted view of herself. Do I meet his Ideal of woman?, do I have to please him?, If we hook up will that make me a slut? I like him, but what will being with him do to my self esteem {Based on external values}?

 

Im sure there is a heap more, but this is the dynamic that Feminism is trying to fix.

 

Strip all the hideous cultural trappings off so humans can just meet other humans and be real with each other.

 

What happens if we flip this script?

 

If a Woman {a human} is relating to a Man {an object} with al the insidious undercurrents that go along with that, how can something healthy emerge?

The woman has a twisted view of the man. He is there to fulfil her, he owes her something, if she does/says the right thing she will get sex.

 

Are there not situations in which women use men like a prop to fulfill some... thing?

 

I've known plenty of girls who just dated guys so they could be her arm candy to dance.

 

Or maybe he has the right college on his resume, and she wants to get into a certain party.

 

Oh, I've heard this guy has a big dick, let me go after him for a night.

 

I have been getting a lot of respect for Joseph Gordon Levitt recently, especially after seeing his movie Don Jon. For anyone in the cultivation field it's nothing too exciting, to be sure. He does introduce some good ideas into the mainstream (even if just subconsciously).

 

But there is a brilliant example of a woman going after a man just to use him as a prop. No thought for him as a person. Just manipulating him sexually to get what she wants.

 

Is there room for such a scenario in the feminism narrative? Or is she merely a warped identifier with her patriarchal captor?

 

This starts to get up to my personal opinion on the limitations of feminism, btw.

[Aaron]

Yes, that is (was, he has passed) Mr. Roberts. A very fmaous child psychologist in the US and the host of the long running series of PBS TV program "Mr. Roberts".

 

To me, he sometimes came off as being a bit too Yin but in reality he himself was very balanced Yin/Yang wise.

 

You might be thinking of someone else. The person in the bottom picture was Fred Rogers. Mr Roger's Neighborhood was the show on PBS, but he wasn't a psychologist, he was a Presbyterian minister.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Aaron

[Yascra]

And you cut straight to a monetary/prostitution example.

 

Could you please tell me how you arrived at that conclusion?

Because money is used to counterweight "effort" in society.

 

The rest of your response is mainly leading into an interpretation that's not really fitting.

 

You were the one who brought up the topic of sex, your need and greed desire for it, as well as the topic of some imagined "right" to have sex (if your effort has been sufficient).

You brought it up and for clarification and to give you an opportunity fur further insight, I gave you some thoughts from sides of a person who, yes, would deny sex for "efforts".

 

I felt some complaining tone in your first post concerning girls or women who don't "value"/"pay back" "efforts" (and once again, in Western society money is what is used to calculate the size of an effort) with sex, and I just explained what might be some mistakes in that approach. If you're perfectly fine I don't get what you're complaining about.

You don't need to turn it around. I'm a cultivator, I've gotten rid of sexual desires to a large extent, and actually that's better if you want to progress in meditation practice.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yascra

[Yascra]

Is there room for such a scenario in the feminism narrative? Or is she merely a warped identifier with her patriarchal captor?

 

lol

 

Sure, if women were good-hearted feminists like me, they wouldn't wish that men completely succumb to their sexual desire.

 

Of course bad women exist who abuse that men are horny, and in that case I'd wish to the better examples of men they would cultivate sufficiently to not have themselves manipulated that way. But unfortunately those are lessons neither men nor women like to listen to.

 

Actually, as I feel it, and as I practice it, feminism means to find your strength in yourself, and really be yourself, including those parts of yourself that society tells you should not be part of females (and to once again bring that up, many, MOST societies on this planet have extremely harsh and painful ways to deal with persons who don't fit into what's expected of them, for men as well, but women do not rarely suffer pain, torture and death even if they haven't even been the person transgressing some of the stupid rules; e.g. it's not uncommon that a women will be stoned to death because some men have raped her .. and no, her will and health don't play a role in either the rape nor the decision that she'll suffer death for it; she is killed because she had sex with a person she's not married to. Period.).

I really don't need a man to get my sexual needs fulfilled, nor do I manipulate men in a sexual way to get money or anything else, and I find such behaviour disgusting. But these manipulative behaviour is really not what is taught by feminists, that's actually more part of anti-feminist women who don't see a need to take care of themselves and instead prefer to stick to role-models.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yascra

[Yascra]

do I have to please him?

 

If he's not a good person, my experience is that his answer will be "yes, otherwise I don't need to waste my efforts on you".

And that might well hold true if the main efforts for holding up that relationship haven't even been made by him, but by her, lol

 

Of course there are not only bad men. But some relevant portion of males seems to grow up with this idea that someone has to please them. Like, it's part of male socialization that one or half a seat in the bus is not enough, if you're a real guy you need at least one-and-a-half seat, cause you have to show you're a big guy with a big ego.

 

I had to learn some of those shit you're raised with, for better "passing as male", and it can be regarded as funny from some perspective, but if you look closely I tend to more pity you for growing up with some amount of pressure to behave like an asshole. Most be double as hard to break out of this.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yascra

[Apech]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-student-rescued-giant-vagina-sculpture-germany

[zanshin]

Just to walk down the street feeling relatively safe is a privilege men usually enjoy without realising that many women don't share this privilege.

My partner, coming home at night has something happen, nearly every night. She is 'attractive' and nearly every night, either a car pulls up with some dickhead at the wheel, or a group of guys she has to walk past start trying to get her to 'come for a drive', go out for coffee, come back to mine, lets get a drink, come meet my friends...

When she turns them down, or ignores them, they don't politely say 'no problem, have a good night', they call her a leso slut, or some other stupid thing, and do some crazy burnout to demonstrate what winners they are...

 

 

Its insane really, when you think about it.

But what do we do as Men? We say dont take that route, which kind of puts it on the woman. But how do we address the social situation that breeds this situation? Its there in all the movies, usually as comedy or action movies. Its all around us in advertising.

 

We have to do our best to not think of people as commodities, to remove the idea that looks of a certain kind give someone their value or lack of, to stop basing our Ideas of beauty on unrealistic photoshopped images, and to remove the Idea that anyone 'has' to act a certain way, based on their sex.

 

These are some of the things that Feminism is trying to face, and it has a long road ahead of it.

 

This. Male entitlement is a huge problem long before someone goes on a killing spree. It turned into the pua alpha beta, what kind of man do women want? Individual women can choose to sleep with whatever kind of man she wants, I don't care about that. Does anyone really think women want to walk down the street with their keys clutched like claws? We don't- think about living with that constant undercurrent of fear. Women would prefer to say no thanks, not interested, instead of saying we have boyfriends or making up fake phone numbers. No one has to sleep with you- ever- not even if you buy dinner and opera tickets! Physical safety should be a basic human right, getting sex when you want it- or ever, is not.

[Marblehead]

These are some of the things that Feminism is trying to face, and it has a long road ahead of it.

Hi Seth,

 

With that post you could have written this song:

 

 

 

 

But it probably wouldn't get played on radio because it's not politically correct.

[Marblehead]

Well, it seems our peaceful discussion of this topic went to hell on Page 6 while I was sleeping. Oh well.

[Marblehead]

You might be thinking of someone else. The person in the bottom picture was Fred Rogers. Mr Roger's Neighborhood was the show on PBS, but he wasn't a psychologist, he was a Presbyterian minister.

Yes, I already acknowledged a correction of this earlier in the thread. It is Mr. Rogers.

 

PS Here is a Wiki Article about him:

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Rogers

 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Marblehead

[Sloppy Zhang]

Because money is used to counterweight "effort" in society.

 

But we all know that money can't be used to buy happiness.

 

In the human endeavor, and sex and fulfilling interpersonal relationships are part of the human endeavor, I don't believe we should be so reductionist (as most of your post was, and, in my opinion, the majority of the feminist argument is).

 

But maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, eh?

 

I find it a little sad you immediately reduced my argument to money and prostitution. That you immediately reduced the search for a fulfilling relationship to its basic, physical element.

 

Most of the rest of my points just follow from that.

[Yascra]

But maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, eh?

 

Tbh, and I do absolutely not apply that on every accidental crossing male being, most of your words sounded more like those of a hopeless egoist who doesn't care too much about needs and desires as long as they are not his own

[Sloppy Zhang]

If he's not a good person, my experience is that his answer will be "yes, otherwise I don't need to waste my efforts on you".

And that might well hold true if the main efforts for holding up that relationship haven't even been made by him, but by her, lol

 

Of course there are not only bad men. But some relevant portion of males seems to grow up with this idea that someone has to please them. Like, it's part of male socialization that one or half a seat in the bus is not enough, if you're a real guy you need at least one-and-a-half seat, cause you have to show you're a big guy with a big ego.

 

I had to learn some of those shit you're raised with, for better "passing as male", and it can be regarded as funny from some perspective, but if you look closely I tend to more pity you for growing up with some amount of pressure to behave like an asshole. Most be double as hard to break out of this.

 

I'd like to throw out that a fair amount of this "male socialization" involves "rewarding" this "asshole" behavior. In the absence of positive reinforcement, the behavior would not thrive.

 

And who doles out this reward? Simply, women.

 

The asshole with 150% of resources, with 150% success, gets rewarded 150% by 150% of women!

 

So as a guy you think, okay, I'll take only 100%. Hell, I already have enough, I'll give up and make do with 50%.

 

And then you look around and go... Well hell, that ain't right.

 

But, I guess that's all rather transactional, and looking for a reward. So, maybe let's just ignore.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Tbh, and I do absolutely not apply that on every accidental crossing male being, most of your words sounded more like those of a hopeless egoist who doesn't care too much about needs and desires as long as they are not his own

 

History has taught me that all great men are hopeless egoists, so thank you very much for the complement

[Yascra]

The asshole with 150% of resources, with 150% success, gets rewarded 150% by 150% of women!

150% of women would definitely be so much that it would cover me.

Why do you focus on the idiotic females and why is it them you'd like to get? Maybe change your social environment, ever thought about that? Cause something seems to be wrong with yours.

But maybe I'm surrounded by too much feminists ^^ Cause actually the kind of women you describe don't even make 10% of those I know .. but well .. I tend to avoid persons who don't stand on their own feet.

[Yascra]

 

History has taught me that all great men are hopeless egoists, so thank you very much for the complement

 

Aha, suddenly it's history and not the evil females. Thanks for being sufficiently honest

I think regarding the fact that we're writing on a forum that focuses on spirituality we're both clear that this conversation is finished. Maybe you make a new start somewhere by questioning your interpretation of history or your impressions about what makes someone a great person.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Yascra

[Sloppy Zhang]

Aha, suddenly it's history and not the evil females. Thanks for being sufficiently honest

 

Oh no, females are quite lovely And in fact, they do tend to reward the egoist rather well. But there's your prostitutes again.

 

I think regarding the fact that we're writing on a forum that focuses on spirituality we're both clear that this conversation is finished. Maybe you make a new start somewhere by questioning your interpretation of history or your impressions about what makes someone a great person.

 

And why shouldn't this conversation continue?

 

A forum focused on spirituality encompasses the totality of the human endeavor. Sex is part of the human endeavor.

 

Not to mention sex magic!!

 

The fact is, sex is a big sticking point for a lot of people on the path. If we don't dig into it, then I think we're really missing out.

[Marblehead]

Speaking of spirituality:

 

I just had a horrible thought that has never entered my mind before regarding this male/female set of concepts.

 

Two of the worst things one can call a man is "son of a bitch" and "bastard".

 

Look at the roots of these two words.

 

Both are putting the blame on the mother instead of putting the blame on the behavior of the man.