What can feminism do for men?

[tyler zambori]

Zanshin, thank you for that, that is spot on.

 

Thank you BKA for the rap video.

 

I wanted to say, I think that slam poem is more than just a brilliant

feminist poem. To me it seemed an invitation to men to engage

with life.

 

[zanshin]

pedestrian 

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[Kajenx]

Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but I feel like feminism has lost its relevance in western countries. If we consider some of the main issues, like political equality, equality of financial opportunity, sexual liberation, etc, I think it has largely succeeded. There is still an earnings gap, but there's debate about whether this is due to a lack of equal opportunity or whether it's due to job preference and lifestyle choice. Closing the last 30% may be a long game related to deeper cultural change.

 

Anyway, a lot of the feminist issues I see brought up today, like that video zanshin posted, are related to stereotypes and body image issues, and the simple truth is that these apply equally to men and women. For example, if I were to say "you have manners like a guy", "you smell like a guy", or "you drive like a man", those all sound like insults as well - insurance companies even put money on that last one. Maybe go into an Abercrombie and Fitch store and tell me young men aren't going to get body image issues from that.

 

Men and women are different, both physically and mentally, and the cultures that they form together usually involve hierarchy and insults. If you're trying to change this, why call it feminism at all? That just alienates men when talking about issues that affect them the same way.

[tyler zambori]

I have nothing but European ancestry, but the civil rights movement of the 60s benefitted me. Just saying, I know there's still issues and that could be another big side track. I'm not LGBT, but I'm an ally for equal rights for those who are. I don't know much about the men's rights movement, but if it's promoting awareness of violence towards men and helping men to have equal opportunity to raise their kids, those seem like good ideas that I would support. When people get treated like shit, it spatters everywhere.

Yes, it sure does get spattered everywhere. Men's violence against women, for example, also will affect their young sons. And then there's Men's direct sexual violence against young boys too, and men who get raped by other men.

Edited June 27, 2014 by tyler zambori

[GrandmasterP]

No thank you. I've been down that road before.

The Reeperbahn was it?

 

Went down that road back in army days in Hamburg.

Man but those ladies were friendly.

For some reason they seemed to have me mixed up with some guy they all knew called 'Johnny'.

 

Edited June 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[BaguaKicksAss]

A loooong way to go apparently, but at least Target is doing the equal pay for women thing now, even right before they had to!

 

http://blogs.hrhero.com/hrnews/2014/04/08/new-executive-actions-target-equal-pay-for-women/

[BaguaKicksAss]

Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but I feel like feminism has lost its relevance in western countries. If we consider some of the main issues, like political equality, equality of financial opportunity, sexual liberation, etc, I think it has largely succeeded. There is still an earnings gap, but there's debate about whether this is due to a lack of equal opportunity or whether it's due to job preference and lifestyle choice. Closing the last 30% may be a long game related to deeper cultural change.

 

Anyway, a lot of the feminist issues I see brought up today, like that video zanshin posted, are related to stereotypes and body image issues, and the simple truth is that these apply equally to men and women. For example, if I were to say "you have manners like a guy", "you smell like a guy", or "you drive like a man", those all sound like insults as well - insurance companies even put money on that last one. Maybe go into an Abercrombie and Fitch store and tell me young men aren't going to get body image issues from that.

 

Men and women are different, both physically and mentally, and the cultures that they form together usually involve hierarchy and insults. If you're trying to change this, why call it feminism at all? That just alienates men when talking about issues that affect them the same way.

 

Yeah there is a lot of men shaming too, it really sucks . Also, most men I have talked with at least at some point make comments about how they aren't built enough. Though I have found that ever since we have talked less about women shaming, there has been more talk about men shaming as well (it did take a couple of years to catch up though).

Edited June 27, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[tyler zambori]

Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but I feel like feminism has lost its relevance in western countries. If we consider some of the main issues, like political equality, equality of financial opportunity, sexual liberation, etc, I think it has largely succeeded. There is still an earnings gap, but there's debate about whether this is due to a lack of equal opportunity or whether it's due to job preference and lifestyle choice. Closing the last 30% may be a long game related to deeper cultural change.

 

Anyway, a lot of the feminist issues I see brought up today, like that video zanshin posted, are related to stereotypes and body image issues, and the simple truth is that these apply equally to men and women. For example, if I were to say "you have manners like a guy", "you smell like a guy", or "you drive like a man", those all sound like insults as well - insurance companies even put money on that last one. Maybe go into an Abercrombie and Fitch store and tell me young men aren't going to get body image issues from that.

 

Men and women are different, both physically and mentally, and the cultures that they form together usually involve hierarchy and insults. If you're trying to change this, why call it feminism at all? That just alienates men when talking about issues that affect them the same way.

 

Why does the term "feminism" alienate men? What if I called it " anti-sexist activism"? Would that alienate men?

If not, why not?

 

Hmm...."you smell like a guy" etc. does not carry with it the message that men are inferior to anything

or anybody.

 

Male stinkiness? Just take a shower. Neither does "You drive like a man" (I never heard that one?).

" You drive like a woman" does carry that message - that women are worse drivers than men.

 

Yeah, I'd like talk about that video that Zanshin posted.

 

Here's the brief conversation between the female interviewer and the young boy:

 

Female Interviewer: "So do you think you just insulted your sister?"

 

Boy: " No! I mean, yeah, I insulted girls, but not my sister."

 

 

The implication here is that he had told his sister that she "runs/throws/hits

like a girl." Or etc.

 

So what does he think, that it's ok to insult some non-existant archetypal

girls? To him, his sister is a real person he cares about, and therefore

is not included in the group of non-existant archetypal girls.

 

What is he not conscious of, is that now his sister has something to fight

against, which he doesn't. Now she has to fight for her self-esteem.

What he is not conscious of, is that insulting the non-existing archetypal

girls DOES hurt his sister, the real person that he cares about.

 

To quote the film-maker:

 

 

Using #LikeAGirl as an insult is a hard knock against any adolescent girl. And since the rest of puberty's really no picnic either, it's easy to see what a huge impact it can have on a girl's self-confidence. We're kicking off an epic battle to make sure that girls everywhere keep their confidence throughout puberty and beyond, and making a start by showing them that doing it #LikeAGirl is an awesome thing.

 

"In my work as a documentarian, I have witnessed the confidence crisis among girls and the negative impact of stereotypes first-hand," said Lauren Greenfield, filmmaker and director of the #LikeAGirl video. "When the words 'like a girl' are used to mean something bad, it is profoundly disempowering. I am proud to partner with Always to shed light on how this simple phrase can have a significant and long-lasting impact on girls and women. I am excited to be a part of the movement to redefine 'like a girl' into a positive affirmation."

 

Ok, so when the men on this forum say things like:

 

 

It seems women in general are more attatched to or engrossed in the illusion of Maya than men.

 

I've seen this a lot where a woman takes on the lead role in a relationship and she invariably goes borderline insane and very destructive.

 

Then those liberal feminist @#$@#s came along, demanding "equality", when in fact such a thing does not, and cannot, exist between the sexes.

 

Ironically, the woman of today is actually LESS feminine than the woman of yesterday, thanks to feminism.

 

I like my girls to be girly, thank you very much.

 

Estrogen produces a natural desire to seek a strong man who will take charge in most situations. That's just a fact of life.

 

Women interested in reality …"If reality involves what handbags are on sale this weekend, then yes."

(It was Aetherous who said this one)

 

They are doing the same thing that little boy did. LOOK at what you are doing, and WAKE UP! And this is what feminism has to offer men: Consciousness. I hereby challenge you men to become more conscious.

 

Kajenx, so you still want to tell me that feminism no longer has any relevance? Here's a thought:

that's not for men to tell women. We women will tell you when it's no longer relevant.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Why does the term "feminism" alienate men? What if I called it " anti-sexist activism"? Would that alienate men?

If not, why not?

 

Hmm...."you smell like a guy" etc. does not carry with it the message that men are inferior to anything

or anybody.

 

Male stinkiness? Just take a shower. Neither does "You drive like a man" (I never heard that one?).

" You drive like a woman" does carry that message - that women are worse drivers than men.

 

Yeah, I'd like talk about that video that Zanshin posted.

 

Here's the brief conversation between the female interviewer and the young boy:

 

 

 

The implication here is that he had told his sister that she "runs/throws/hits

like a girl." Or etc.

 

So what does he think, that it's ok to insult some non-existant archetypal

girls? To him, his sister is a real person he cares about, and therefore

is not included in the group of non-existant archetypal girls.

 

What is he not conscious of, is that now his sister has something to fight

against, which he doesn't. Now she has to fight for her self-esteem.

What he is not conscious of, is that insulting the non-existing archetypal

girls DOES hurt his sister, the real person that he cares about.

 

To quote the film-maker:

 

 

 

Ok, so when the men on this forum say things like:

 

 

They are doing the same thing that little boy did. LOOK at what you are doing, and WAKE UP! And this is what feminism has to offer men: Consciousness. I hereby challenge you men to become more conscious.

 

Kajenx, so you still want to tell me that feminism no longer has any relevance? Here's a thought:

that's not for men to tell women. We women will tell you when it's no longer relevant.

 

I had missed that post. That is so uncalled for. Link?

[silent thunder]

Kajenx is stirring the pot in a few threads, it's that same impulse that kids have to stomp on a calm puddle.

The words are mostly meaningless, it's the desire to stir up shit that shines through...

[tyler zambori]

I had missed that post. That is so uncalled for. Link?

 

BKA, if you're referring to the list of things men on this forum have said,

it's here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35145-are-men-generally-more-conscious-than-women/page-10#entry554539

 

Apech made a list of comments in the "Are men generally more conscious" thread, which he pointed out

are unacceptable. I noticed along the way that Aetherous made the last comment and noted that in

parentheses.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I see that the mods said we should report any posts in that other thread which are too nasty... well the thing is, most women (including myself) just left the thread after the first derogatory comment. So then you get reports from the only 2 who stayed. To report that post now, I'd have to read the entire thread....

[BaguaKicksAss]

BKA, if you're referring to the list of things men on this forum have said,

it's here:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35145-are-men-generally-more-conscious-than-women/page-10#entry554539

 

Apech made a list of comments in the "Are men generally more conscious" thread, which he pointed out

are unacceptable. I noticed along the way that Aetherous made the last comment and noted that in

parentheses.

 

Yeah I didn't see even a 3 day suspension on anyone from that thread though (well OK accept one person who REALLY went over the top)

[gendao]

Yes, it sure does get spattered everywhere. Men's violence against women, for example, also will affect their young sons. And then there's Men's direct sexual violence against young boys too, and men who get raped by other men.

Isn't turning violence exclusively into a gender issue a form of stereotyping sexism itself - that excludes both violent women and non-violent men? Which is purportedly what feminism is against (sexism)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcHPFxOS47A

And how does feminism cure violence, anyways? I was issued an implicit threat of physical violence for no good reason by the leading male feminist on this site. So, apparently his long indoctrination in feminism...did little to nothing to curb his behavior to utilize violence to deal with conflicts - even as he's railed against violent men himself. (Oh, the irony...)

A loooong way to go apparently, but at least Target is doing the equal pay for women thing now, even right before they had to!

 

http://blogs.hrhero.com/hrnews/2014/04/08/new-executive-actions-target-equal-pay-for-women/

Given that women under 30 now already earn 2%-8% more than men, could you quantify and explain exactly what the "loooong way there still is to go" is based upon, please?

 

Do you mean that more women should also become construction crews, road workers, landscapers, welders, plumbers, AC repairmen, trashmen, butchers, slaughterhouse workers, oil rig workers, car mechanics, fishermen, etc. too to truly "level the playing field" and lower their average life expectancy down to that of men's?

Do you TRULY want FULL equality in ALL areas???

Because if you DON'T...then SELECT equality ONLY is INequality on the WHOLE...

Edited June 27, 2014 by vortex

[tyler zambori]

I see that the mods said we should report any posts in that other thread which are too nasty... well the thing is, most women (including myself) just left the thread after the first derogatory comment. So then you get reports from the only 2 who stayed. To report that post now, I'd have to read the entire thread....

 

 

If we report posts, the whole thread will go to the pit, because the mods "don't want to stifle anyone's freedom of expression." But the "are men generally more conscious than women" thread was sent to the pit, and then locked. AS far as I know, no individual had their post removed, or was suspended.

 

I once suggested that they create a "bathroom wall," where any offensive posts against the terms of service would be sent. It was ignored. But a "bathroom wall" would work in a situation where the mods don't want to stifle anyone's "freedom of expression."

 

The way it works is, it's a subforum with just one long thread. That thread contains all the offensive posts. Anyone can still read the posts, and even do searches. But they are now disconnected from the original

conversation.

 

Saves a lot of banning and suspending. But it was ignored before, and likely still will be.

The mods will do what they want.

Edited June 27, 2014 by tyler zambori

[tyler zambori]

Also, I reported many of the offensive posts, and shortly after that the thread went to the pit.

[HoldorFold]

Men are 80% more likely to be homeless than women, 2/3 homicides are male victims and men are much more likely to be victims of robbery, assaults and general violence.

The above issues are generally seen as humanist issues though. I wonder if there would be benefit in turning them into 'masculinist' issues?

I'd be curious how a thread titled "What can masculinism do for women?" would perform on this forum. I'm not starting it though...

[BaguaKicksAss]

If we report posts, the whole thread will go to the pit, because the mods "don't want to stifle anyone's freedom of expression." But the "are men generally more conscious than women" thread was sent to the pit, and then locked. AS far as I know, no individual had their post removed, or was suspended.

 

I once suggested that they create a "bathroom wall," where any offensive posts against the terms of service would be sent. It was ignored. But a "bathroom wall" would work in a situation where the mods don't want to stifle anyone's "freedom of expression."

 

The way it works is, it's a subforum with just one long thread. That thread contains all the offensive posts. Anyone can still read the posts, and even do searches. But they are now disconnected from the original

conversation.

 

Saves a lot of banning and suspending. But it was ignored before, and likely still will be.

The mods will do what they want.

 

Split and pit has always been my favorite option, then the good convo and posts still stay in the thread.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Men are 80% more likely to be homeless than women, 2/3 homicides are male victims and men are much more likely to be victims of robbery, assaults and general violence.

 

The above issues are generally seen as humanist issues though. I wonder if there would be benefit in turning them into 'masculinist' issues?

 

I'd be curious how a thread titled "What can masculinism do for women?" would perform on this forum. I'm not starting it though...

 

As long as everyone could discuss it without insulting each other or the genders, I think that would be a good thread. I think society screws men over (but in different ways) just as much as it screws women over.

[tyler zambori]

Split and pit has always been my favorite option, then the good convo and posts still stay in the thread.

 

I agree, I think it would work out much better than pitting and locking.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Why does the term "feminism" alienate men? What if I called it " anti-sexist activism"? Would that alienate men?

If not, why not?

 

Well the root of the term "feminism" does imply a focus on women (thus alienating men).

 

Whereas anti-sexist activism would encompass things affecting men and women (thus not alienating anybody).

 

Kajenx, so you still want to tell me that feminism no longer has any relevance? Here's a thought:

that's not for men to tell women. We women will tell you when it's no longer relevant.

 

By this same logic, maybe it should be up to men to decide if, and if so, how, "feminism benefits men." And not for women to tell men how feminism benefits men. We men will tell you when it starts to benefit us.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Sloppy Zhang

[Marblehead]

A loooong way to go apparently, but at least Target is doing the equal pay for women thing now, even right before they had to!

 

http://blogs.hrhero.com/hrnews/2014/04/08/new-executive-actions-target-equal-pay-for-women/

But then my Target had to close because it was taking a loss.

[BaguaKicksAss]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/35360-what-can-masculinism-do-for-women/ Enjoy .

[BaguaKicksAss]

By equal pay, I mean for the exact same job.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Male stinkiness? Just take a shower. Neither does "You drive like a man" (I never heard that one?).

" You drive like a woman" does carry that message - that women are worse drivers than men.

 

I've got one for ya:

 

"You're a dick."

 

Nothing sums up a person who is borish, rude, uncaring, insensitive, selfish, and ignorant as much as reducing them to the male genital.

 

Yes, we can do that with female genitalia as well, to be sure

 

But notice that a person can be reduced to a man's AND a woman's genitalia (insults are equal like that, I guess) and BOTH have negative definitions (different, yes, but both negative).

 

 

Yeah, I'd like talk about that video that Zanshin posted.

 

Here's the brief conversation between the female interviewer and the young boy:

 

 

 

The implication here is that he had told his sister that she "runs/throws/hits

like a girl." Or etc.

 

So what does he think, that it's ok to insult some non-existant archetypal

girls? To him, his sister is a real person he cares about, and therefore

is not included in the group of non-existant archetypal girls.

 

What is he not conscious of, is that now his sister has something to fight

against, which he doesn't. Now she has to fight for her self-esteem.

What he is not conscious of, is that insulting the non-existing archetypal

girls DOES hurt his sister, the real person that he cares about.

 

I'd also like to talk about that, because it was quite interesting watching the gears in that boy's head turn...

 

It's almost like, he thought of an abstract conceptual group and individuals in different ways...

 

Kind of like, "black people". Or... "asian people".... or... "white people"...

 

Or "the upper class"... or, "the poor."

 

Or "men."

 

I would say all HUMANS tend to categorize groups as mental shortcuts and ways of making decisions, but that individuals they have real relationships with trump however they view the group.

 

For example: there are lots of homeless black men in my downtown area. I am wary of them because they have harassed and insulted me in the past, so I avoid areas where homeless black men congregate.

 

Does that mean I am racist/classist/sexist against the homeless group, the black group, and the men group?

 

No.

 

It's a cognitive shortcut my brain uses which evolved to help humans survive.

 

It's just something I'll have to deal with.

 

We could create a separate thread just about racism.

 

How many people on this board are black? Maybe we should tone down the "locker room talk" to make the forum more inviting for black people?