What can feminism do for men?

[silent thunder]

Pardon me, I made an error. This forum is full of a bunch of clowns.

On other spiritually oriented fourms, people actually want to talk about

spirituality.

 

My s/o, a man, said to me: If you call it the Tao Bums, what will you

get? Bums!

I'd be interested to see one thing anywhere in the universe that isn't spiritual...

 

I'd delete this thread now if I could. I regret coming back here at all.

that regret is easily mollified...

[Nungali]

So, do you mean that

with a backbone (like against feminist "attacks") = acting manly?

 

No. I mean standing up and speaking out against male sexism might require more of an honest backbone than many men possess.

 

Its like the racial issue here ... no I didnt personally abuse black people ... but my advantageous position in society is maintained over them because I am white ... I can do something about that ... or I can abuse and somehow blame the indigenous for the situation ' white western Europeans' put them in.

 

 

As opposed to what...girly?

 

No ... as opposed to acting like a spolied little boy thats used to getting his way ... or throwing a tantrum ... as opposed to a 'MAN" who is to manly to do 'womans work' like cooking his own food or claening up his own mess ( so he finds a new mummy / wife whose work it must be !

 

Why do you oppose the term manly with girly ?

 

 

 

Life has changed you know ... we dont hunt and dig veggies anymore ... either sex can operate a computer, lay concrete or drive a truck ... but we are failing by not adapting to this ... where do the kids go? We need to sort a whole lot of things and completely re-vamp child care as one example.

 

 

Isn't attributing certain attributes to certain genders sexism? And if so, does that make it automatically untrue?

 

Of course 'certain genders' have 'certain attributes' ... what, you haven't noticed that ??? That isnt sexism . Sexism is prejudice based on the difference. Prejudice is pre judgement ... that is, in this case, pre judging a person will or wont have a certain trait because of their sex ... instead of seeing what skill sets an individual might possess. Like thinking a woman cant drive a truck or a man cant look after a baby ... there might be men and women that cant or can do either , both or neither.

 

Its a ridiculous train of argument you seem to be trying to set up.

[Nungali]

So according to you, women can be feminist but the right way to do it is to be ever so meek about it,

and not let the men even know. Did women get the right to vote by doing things that way? No.

 

I may not have been clear enough - I put out the question " what can feminism do for men," not

what can feminist women do for men, if they do it the way that does not upset men.

 

I see that not many even want to think about it, but I'm not surprised.

 

Well ... to be totally sexist about it :devilish grin :

 

ONE (other thing on the list) is , in my experience, women that are into feminism often have their attitudes about sex better sorted out ...

 

Sex is better with a feminist (ducks assorted thrown things) ... they do it for enjoyment or procreation ... just like men do . I rarely have found a feminist with a 'sacrificial' attitude... only do it to please the man... and of course ,,, since 'she did him a favour' ... now he owes her one ... or visa versa - YES ???

 

 

In case some dont realise ... we (society) recently realised that it is not impossible for a woman to enjoy sex ... I mean it took years of study and proof ... psychiatrists marvelled at how the effects of a vibrator on the genitals of a woman caused her to go 'all funny' and to be much more relaxed afterwards ...

[Marblehead]

I have a vibrator for my feet. (No, I don't put it on my lap.)

[Nungali]

< Nungali gathers psychiatrists around > "Now observe the effect on Marblehead as his feet start to relax ... see how it spreads through his body and even to his face ... now he is smiling."

 

<Afterwards> "And how do you feel now Mr Marblehead ?"

 

"Oh a lot better, my feet aren't aching like they were before."

 

<Psychiatrists mutter amongst themselves> " Amazing .... fascinating ... perhaps the feet were tired from over use and not being treated with enough care and tenderness ... I am going to write a paper on this ! .... "

[Nungali]

Ida Craddock ... candidate for 'saint' in the Gnostic Church

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Craddock

 

Edited June 24, 2014 by Nungali

[Seth Ananda]

'Priviledge' is thinking something isn't really a problem, because its not a problem for you.

 

Feminisms work wont be done until events like the Elliot Rodgers woman kill spree never happen again, which will require a massive change in cultural thinking.

 

The underlying values we are taught by our society, are that a Women's value is based on her attractiveness or sexiness.

In other words, she is not human being, she is a commodity, either a bottom, middle or top shelf 'item', a somewhere between a '1 and a 10' trophy.

 

Not that long ago she was chattel, property, and basically a sex slave. Not given the vote, told she was to gentle, delicate and emotional to form an intelligent opinion.

 

And the stupid stupid misogynistic voices here at the Taobums, think that because Women eventually won the vote, that all those cultural attitudes just miraculously evaporated?

 

Most Men basically see Woman as barely more than a machine to keep a vagina alive. Its right there in the attitudes.

 

Women have to be pleasing, yin and gentle, soft and charming. because that is 'feminine' and what they really really are, which is really what the men want them to be, because who wants their sex supply 'playing up' with thinking or rebellion...?

 

"I was good and charming, so I am 'owed' or 'deserve' or am in someway entitled to sex!" I did the things right, waaa, give me sex you withholding bitch!

~ That is not seeing a human being first, that is seeing another human being as a sex supply that you somehow have rights to...

 

Women 'only' like 'alphas' therefore I am gonna be a prick to them so they will fuck me!!! Really? What kind of human being acts like this? Other than a self entitled little shit?
{and if they still dont fuck me I am gonna whine all day on internet forums about what money grabbing bitches they all, and why they don't give me the sex I somehow 'deserve' ~ once again perpetuating rape culture, cause if you 'deserve' it, then you are 'entitled' to it, all somehow without the women's involvement}

 

We have a disgusting dynamic at play in our societies, and men nearly always walk around blissfully unaware of it, because they are never {comparatively} on the receiving end of it, and even when they are perpetuating it, think its just a laugh, lighten up lady, oooh she must be a lesbian, feminazi!

 

Just to walk down the street feeling relatively safe is a privilege men usually enjoy without realising that many women don't share this privilege.

My partner, coming home at night has something happen, nearly every night. She is 'attractive' and nearly every night, either a car pulls up with some dickhead at the wheel, or a group of guys she has to walk past start trying to get her to 'come for a drive', go out for coffee, come back to mine, lets get a drink, come meet my friends...

When she turns them down, or ignores them, they don't politely say 'no problem, have a good night', they call her a leso slut, or some other stupid thing, and do some crazy burnout to demonstrate what winners they are...

 

 

Its insane really, when you think about it.

But what do we do as Men? We say dont take that route, which kind of puts it on the woman. But how do we address the social situation that breeds this situation? Its there in all the movies, usually as comedy or action movies. Its all around us in advertising.

 

We have to do our best to not think of people as commodities, to remove the idea that looks of a certain kind give someone their value or lack of, to stop basing our Ideas of beauty on unrealistic photoshopped images, and to remove the Idea that anyone 'has' to act a certain way, based on their sex.

 

These are some of the things that Feminism is trying to face, and it has a long road ahead of it.

[Aetherous]

Feminisms work wont be done until events like the Elliot Rodgers woman kill spree never happen again, which will require a massive change in cultural thinking.

 

He killed 4 men, 2 women, and injured some other people. It wasn't a woman kill spree.

 

I agree with pretty much all of your post, though. How our society and its boys tend to view women in sexuality is harmful to everyone. We don't have enough of the right kinds of role models out there for this.

[Seth Ananda]

He killed 4 men, 2 women, and injured some other people. It wasn't a woman kill spree.

Well, apparently a 'Woman' inspired kill spree... although it was really rape culture inspired,

 

I agree with pretty much all of your post, though. How our society and its boys tend to view women in sexuality is harmful to everyone. We don't have enough of the right kinds of role models out there for this.

Its so hard, and the sheer level of opposition is overwhelming. It sometimes seems that only a handful of people are actually looking at the situation from a careful astute perspective. That Women have to worry that much more about their physical safety is shocking. That fact alone should keep everyone supporting Feminism.

 

Also to many early Feminists, it felt like war. It was War. They had to rally, bleed in the streets in some places, and cop the onslaught of bullying, name calling and media putdowns and social ostracization. From Men, and the various stockholm syndrome women.

 

In war there can be a tendency to demonise the other side, {Ask any Vets here what they though of the Viet Kong} which on one level is natural and fair enough I say. The situation we have today with these Man/boys {and there are so many of them} is enough reason for a little bit of demonising to continue to happen.

[Nungali]

More about Ida :

 

" "I am very far from agreeing with all that this most talented woman sets forth in her paper, but she certainly obtained initiated knowledge of extraordinary depth. She seems to have had access to certain most concealed sanctuaries.... She has put down statements in plain English which are positively staggering. This book is of incalculable value to every student of occult matters. No Magick library is complete without it." - Crowley on Craddock;

 

" Ida left a letter to the public which read, in part: "I am taking my life because a judge, at the instigation of Anthony Comstock, has declared me guilty of a crime I did not commit--the circulation of obscene literature. Perhaps it may be that in my death, more than in my life, the American people may be shocked into investigating the dreadful state of affairs which permits that unctuous sexual hypocrite Anthony Comstock to wax fat and arrogant and to trample upon the liberties of the people, invading, in my own case, both my right to freedom of religion and to freedom of the press." In a long note to her mother, she wrote: "I maintain my right to die as I have lived, a free woman, not cowed into silence by any other human being."

 

http://www.idacraddock.com/intro.html

[Seth Ananda]

I have met a lot of lovely feminists, and I would much rather date a feminist than a woman who isn't. I feel like I can trust them more to be themselves with me.

 

Also the 'man haters' I have also met, and they are hard work. Being judged based on your gender is never nice.

But I feel deeply for them. They have been judged based on their gender their whole lives, and I am really only copping a tiny moment of that from them, so really I am the lucky one ~ not that anyone actually wins from this situation.

 

Also many of the 'Manhating Femanazi's' have been raped, or sexually abused, sometimes many times... by Men.

 

​Maybe we could start giving them a little leeway based on their past experiences?

[gendao]

No. I mean standing up and speaking out against male sexism might require more of an honest backbone than many men possess.

 

No ... as opposed to acting like a spolied little boy thats used to getting his way ... or throwing a tantrum ... as opposed to a 'MAN" who is to manly to do 'womans work' like cooking his own food or claening up his own mess ( so he finds a new mummy / wife whose work it must be !

 

Why do you oppose the term manly with girly ?

 

Life has changed you know ... we dont hunt and dig veggies anymore ... either sex can operate a computer, lay concrete or drive a truck ... but we are failing by not adapting to this ... where do the kids go? We need to sort a whole lot of things and completely re-vamp child care as one example.

 

Of course 'certain genders' have 'certain attributes' ... what, you haven't noticed that ??? That isnt sexism . Sexism is prejudice based on the difference. Prejudice is pre judgement ...

So, standing up for yourself is only manly if it's against male sexism...but not if it's against feminism?

 

And by equating standing up for yourself specifically with "men"...you are also specifically excluding women, boys & girls. Which I thought is exactly what feminism was against?

 

If you had truly meant "mature adult" instead, you could have just said that. But, instead you singled out a specific gender. Is that sexist?

 

Well, you did say that you've noticed that certain genders tend to have certain attributes. I have to, statistically. But, would feminists acknowledge, much less celebrate, any innate (or nurtured) gender differences/expectations/roles?

ONE (other thing on the list) is , in my experience, women that are into feminism often have their attitudes about sex better sorted out ...

 

Sex is better with a feminist (ducks assorted thrown things) ... they do it for enjoyment or procreation ... just like men do . I rarely have found a feminist with a 'sacrificial' attitude... only do it to please the man... and of course ,,, since 'she did him a favour' ... now he owes her one ... or visa versa - YES ???

So you speak of sex, but not love. Do you prefer just sex without all the strings attached (the rest of the woman and her life apart from her vjj)? What about love, functional families, committed relationships and healthy households? You know, the whole shebang...not just that...she-bangs..

'Priviledge' is thinking something isn't really a problem, because its not a problem for you.

 

Feminisms work wont be done until events like the Elliot Rodgers woman kill spree never happen again, which will require a massive change in cultural thinking.

 

The underlying values we are taught by our society, are that a Women's value is based on her attractiveness or sexiness.

 

Women have to be pleasing, yin and gentle, soft and charming. because that is 'feminine' and what they really really are, which is really what the men want them to be, because who wants their sex supply 'playing up' with thinking or rebellion...?

 

My partner, coming home at night has something happen, nearly every night. She is 'attractive'

One actually has to be sexually privileged enough to become upset at becoming sexually-objectified. Because what is even worse than that...is being sexually-neglected. As is the deeply painful plight of "Yin Beta Males," who are becoming epidemic amongst the Millenials. But the more they get ignored, dismissed and even further marginalized, the more they will implode..

 

But perhaps women and "privileged" men never thought it's really a problem, because it's never been a problem for them?

 

So, your own partner just happens to be very attractive. Is she also pleasing, yin, gentle, soft and charming? Or displeasing, yang, rough, hard and rude?

Edited June 24, 2014 by vortex

[Seth Ananda]

hmm i was awaiting the typical moronic response from one of the TTB's main misogynists...

One actually has to be sexually privileged enough to become upset at becoming sexually-objectified.

What?!? Sexual objectification affects all women. It is based on not seeing the woman as a person, but as a sexual commodity. It is dehumanising, and strips women of value if they dont fit the current cultural beauty standard.

 

Because what is even worse than that...is being sexually-neglected.

 

Bullshit! So having a culture that dehumanises women, gives women value {or lack of} based on their looks {or lack of} where its almost ok to rape them now days if they were wearing a short skirt, and a little while ago, it was totally ok to rape them if they wore a short skirt?

 

Well that isnt as bad as some poor man not getting sex when he wants it?

 

Maybe his personality has been so twisted by our sick society that he is not attractive to women. Maybe he spends all his time in his mums basement jacking off over '10's' and calling them bitches cause he doesn't know any of them? The poor boy... Waaaa, those evil women 'Owe' him sex!

 

Is that what you think? Should women be 'made' to sleep with you cause your feeling sex neglected?

 

 

As is the deeply painful plight of "Yin Beta Males," who are becoming epidemic amongst the Millenials. But the more they get ignored, dismissed and even further marginalized, the more they will implode..

Oh its women's fault that they Implode is it?

 

You sir are a sick individual, and here you just justified violence against women.

 

People implode when they have an unrealistic sense of Entitlement.

 

No one is owed sex. No one deservers sex. If you think you are or do, then you are suffering from this thing called 'entitlement' which means you feel on some level, that you have some kind of 'rights' over a womans body. It means that on some level, you support, or justify rape.

 

As for Imploding, its these false set of rights and entitlements that so many men carry that make them implode. That is not the fault of women. Who do we blame? We blame media, and the cultural stories we carry.

 

Stories that say a woman is a commodity.

 

A commodity is something that can be bought, earned, or won.

 

Therefore if you have the right things, say/do the right things then it should be yours right?

 

No, because its a fucking Human Being, not your fucking sex slave.

 

But perhaps women and "privileged" men never thought it's really a problem, because it's never been a problem for them?

Why should it be a problem for them? No one 'owes' anyone anything.

So, your own partner just happens to be very attractive. Is she also pleasing, yin, gentle, soft and charming? Or displeasing, yang, rough, hard and rude?

Did you just blame my partner for men harassing her? Be glad you dont live down the street from me...

[Nungali]

So, standing up for yourself is only manly if it's against male sexism...but not if it's against feminism?

 

No ... try understanding what I mean from what I am saying ... not what I mean from how you are trying to twist it.

 

In my terminology standing up against feminism, is like standing up against those that seek social justice and an end to racism. I wont bother re writing what Seth Ananda wrote as he did such a good job of it ... read it again then explain to me how 'manly' it is for a man to 'stand up against feminism'.

 

And by equating standing up for yourself specifically with "men"...you are also specifically excluding women, boys & girls. Which I thought is exactly what feminism was against?

No... standing up for myself against anyone who tries to suppress men, women and children. And women who do that too are 'Real Women'. Its just that being a man you cant accuse me of being a feminist ... well. you probably can... I guess that makes me an Aboriginist and a Childist as well then.

 

If you had truly meant "mature adult" instead, you could have just said that. But, instead you singled out a specific gender. Is that sexist?

 

So men have been suppressing women for X centuries but to say be a man about it men, and man up, and stop being little boys and throwing tanties and wanting titty all the time ... now I am being sexist ?

Dont you feel thats a bit niggardly ... a bit of a pathetic point in the argument.

 

What ...? ... I am supposed to be so politically correct that I have to say "Some people have been suppressed by other people because they couldn't find their 'mature adult' ? "

 

Well, you did say that you've noticed that certain genders tend to have certain attributes. I have to, statistically. But, would feminists acknowledge, much less celebrate, any innate (or nurtured) gender differences/expectations/roles?

Read my posts again . If you dont think there are differences that define the sexes ... you better have that birds and bees talk again.

 

So you speak of sex, but not love. Do you prefer just sex without all the strings attached (the rest of the woman and her life apart from her vjj)? What about love, functional families, committed relationships and healthy households? You know, the whole shebang...not just that...she-bangs..

 

yes I was speaking about sex ... good ol ; lets have sex for fun ... enjoyment,,, therapy ... healing ... what you will. This may shock some ... but some women like to have sex for fun with no attachments or expectations.

 

I wasnt writing about what I prefer ... just one dynamic. Actually, at this stage of my life I prefer NO sex ... unless the woman is quiet advanced and together, even then it might not be required ... I really like functional families because that means (in my definition) that the kids will be well looked after THEN so will everyone else. I have contributed to the better functioning of families many times ... when sex had noting to do with it ... actually my new neighbour is a single dad with 4 kids ... mum killed herself last year ... I look forward to helping them where I can ... and no, sex is not on the table there.

 

I may discuss love as well later, but for now, on that subject I'll just say that love for many is a result of the chemicals produced by people in proximity who are a good genetic match.

 

There is another type of love but I find most aren't clear on the basic types of love ... the Ancient Greeks had many words to distinguish the different types of love ... nowadays we use the same word to describe how we feel about our wives ... and our beer.

 

One actually has to be sexually privileged enough to become upset at becoming sexually-objectified. Because what is even worse than that...is being sexually-neglected.

 

Do you feel sexually neglected? If you do, I think that is another ill of society ... Wilhelm Reich wrote about that (and others, including Craddock ) . Reich even got 'sex worker / prostitutes' (therapists) working in 'clinics' ... some inside factories ... it worked for a while ... sick days decreased ... production went up .... but sexual liberation movements get suppressed by male dictators ... I wonder why ???

 

" What has prevented the growth of Socialist consciousness amongst the working class even though the material conditions for the immediate establishment of Socialism have been in existence for at least three-quarters of a century? Why, when Socialism is so obviously in their interest, do workers continue to support and maintain capitalism? Why is the political behaviour of the working class so irrational?

 

"For Wilhelm Reich the answer could be summed up in two words: sexual repression. In his view, the restric­tions on sexual activity imposed through the father-dominated family structure produced people dependent on authority and incapable of independent thought and action. "

 

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/1970s/1973/no-825-may-1973/sexual-politics-wilhelm-reich

[Nungali]

There was an issue on the community I live on years ago, relating to dynamics in the shower block. A visitor was disturbed because she saw a two approx 12 year old girls standing in front of an open shower door laughing at a man showering and saying in a sing song voice "We can see your Willie."

 

Eventually, the stories she spread caused a meeting on the issue where she revealed her story. Now the guy is on the carpet for having a shower with the door open. He said the door was shut but they opened it. he was asked why the door was not locked ... good grief! This from people who showered with open doors and walked around nude in the shower block for the last 15 years ! He said that he did lock the door but the girls picked the lock. This was met with disbelief, I had to speak up - they do it to me too and yes they do pick the lock ... now I am under suspicion !

 

The girls were present and they readily admitted to picking the lock, its easy, just push a nail into the hole from the outside. They were asked why they do that and they said it was a joke and pointed out that at the river where everyone was swimming naked they dont point and laugh down there. They said we were silly and left the meeting.

 

I had to point out that at times, these girls might 'accidentally' come out of the shower naked, see a man, cover up and say "Oh dear." and run back in and slam the door. They do that on purpose too.

 

Then the girls own mother pipes up and says "Oh well, if they are going to act like that, we cant blame men for the way they act."

 

"WHAT ? ? ? " From her own mother !

 

During the rest of the conversation I had to explain about developing sexuality, and why the girls would do that and a whole range of other things.

 

Then 95% of the people there, men and women go "Well ... what do you think a man should do in that situation ?"

 

So I explained a range of sensible options; ' play the game feign equal embarrassment and look away .... cover your eyes and scream and say 'it burns , it burns' or 'hey... you look just like you did yesterday at the river ... you haven't changed THAT much overnight ... or yell "ARRRGH girl germs' and run into the shower.

 

And then; " doesnt a man understand that a developing child will test and flaunt their sexuality to see the result it gets and how their socio-sexual power effects others? A mature man will understand that and respond with an appropriate healthy response instead of somehow loosing all power and control because of what a little girl is doing."

 

Blank stares ... at me ... by all. Silence ..... then; "Wow ... you have a really mature attitude about it ."

 

Really ?

 

REALLY !

 

Has it got THAT bad that on an alternative community that supposedly was born out of the socio-sexual revolution of the 60s attitudes like this are prevalent .

 

YES. And worse ... nowadays its closed doors, swimmers at the river and the youth in town seem to be copying a ridiculously sexist 'gansta' culture.

 

We may well be going backwards.

[gendao]

Bullshit! So having a culture that dehumanises women, gives women value {or lack of} based on their looks {or lack of}

Of course sexual neglect and objectification both suck, I'm just saying that neglect sucks more.. Hence, many people would still prefer negative attention to no attention at all. Or "all PR is good PR."

Oh its women's fault that they Implode is it?

You sir are a sick individual, and here you just justified violence against women.

Why should it be a problem for them? No one 'owes' anyone anything.

My simple point was that if he had received some empathy, understanding and counseling, then his kamikaze violence could have been prevented.

All I ever wanted was to fit in and live a happy life amongst humanity, but I was cast out and rejected, forced to endure an existence of loneliness and insignificance, all because the females of the human species were incapable of seeing the value in me.

In fact, her pregnancy was an accident. She had been taking pills to prevent pregnancy, but when she visited my father on one of his film sets, she fell ill and the medication she took for that illness thwarted the effect of the anti-pregnancy pills, and so their lovemaking during this period resulted in my life.

I also observed the girls. I was still very short for my age, and most of the girls were taller than me. I hadn’t reached puberty yet, but I was starting to admire female prettiness.

I thought all of the cool kids were obnoxious jerks, but I tried as best as I could to hide my disgust and
appear “cool” to them.
They were obnoxious jerks, and yet somehow it was these boys who all of the girls flocked to. This showed me that the world was a brutal place, and human beings were nothing more than savage animals. Everything my father taught me was proven wrong. He raised me to be a polite, kind gentleman. In a decent world, that would be ideal. But the polite, kind gentleman doesn’t win in the real world. The girls don’t flock to the gentlemen. They flock to the alpha male. They flock to the boys who appear to have the most power and status. And it was a ruthless struggle to reach such a height.

I was so overwhelmed by the brutality of the world that I just didn’t care anymore. On the very first week, I had my first experience of true bullying, not just the teasing I had at Pinecrest. Some horrible Twelfth Graders saw me as a target because I looked like a ten year old and I was physically weak. They threw food at me during lunchtime and after school. It enraged me, but I was too scared to do anything about it.
What kind of horrible, depraved people would poke fun at a boy younger than them who has just entered high school? I thought to myself.

After being bullied so much in Eighth and Ninth Grade, I became more shy and timid than I ever was in my life. I felt very small, weak, and above all, worthless. I cried by myself at school every day.

One boy who was tall and had blonde hair called me a “loser”, right in front of his girlfriends. Yes, he had girls with him. Pretty girls. And they didn’t seem to mind that he was such an evil bastard. In fact, I bet they liked
him for it. This is how girls are, and I was starting to realize it. This was what truly opened my eyes to how brutal the world is. The most meanest and depraved of men come out on top, and women flock to these men. Their evil acts are rewarded by women; while the good, decent men are laughed at. It is sick, twisted, and wrong in every way. I hated the girls even more than the bullies because of this. The sheer cruelty of the world around me was so intense that I will never recover from the mental scars. Any experience I ever had before never traumatized me as much as this.

Ironically, he became so despondent because he felt like no one (especially girls) appreciated his value as a "virtuous" gentleman. Instead, he felt judged and devalued by inborn attributes "out of his control." He felt hopelessly worthless simply due to being born by mistake, short, weak-looking and bullied. In short, he felt like a born loser.

 

Teen angst is actually a phase we all suffer through...just usually not to HIS EXTREME....

 

But again, good counseling/healing the roots of his violence could have helped resolve them in a healthy, peaceful manner. Which is all I was advocating.

Did you just blame my partner for men harassing her? Be glad you dont live down the street from me...

Another strawman followed by "cavemanly" territorial threat for good measure? Woa, I must have been hitting close to home, there fella! Sorry?

Edited June 24, 2014 by vortex

[Seth Ananda]

calling strawman is a pretty lousy response but its a good place to hide your misogyny behind.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Anyone read that "buy a woman a book" thread?

 

Yeah I don't read any women vs men threads on TTBs anymore.

 

This one seems somewhat peaceful though, read the last page since someone posted who always has good posts.

 

One day though, women will make just as much as men, and rape culture won't be so prevalent. One day judges won't say "no means maybe" and one day we won't be judged on how we dress.

 

Btw, anyone notice that women were never taught a lot of the martial arts or spiritual paths back in the day? (no women monks, huh?)

 

Though the West is doing better than some other places. A woman can't even do business transactions for herself over in Egypt (wtf? seriously?)

 

PS guy bashing is just as bad IMO though.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I had a somewhat long response typed up but [edit: this one turned out long anyway just meandering thoughts I guess]... I've been involved in these threads before the regular players probably know what's going to come next...

 

I used to be a beta male [still am at my core]. Was predominantly raised by a mother who encouraged me to find women of value and quality because why waste your time on anything less?

 

After 21 years of celibacy and never finding the right girl, I took a good hard look at reality. Separate from dogma, "common sense," superstition, and the culmination of all three, political correctness.

 

Was I "entitled" to women's bodies? I don't know. I believed my parents that if I worked hard and was a good person, I'd meet someone who was of a similar mindset to me. Is that entitlement? Is it entitlement to want a partner who meshes with you on all levels (physicality included, but not reduced to physicality)? Is it entitlement to, say, put effort into a relationship and be sad, and maybe a little bit angry, when it doesn't come out on the other side?

 

If it is, I say that's a somewhat warped view of entitlement. Entitlement is something for nothing. When you put effort into something, into someone, and that doesn't get returned... then... I don't know what it is, but that's what happens.

 

Part of it is upbringing. I was raised predominantly by a mother who said if you work hard and are a good guy the right girl is going to be there, someone who worked as hard as you and who is as good a person as you. Is that rape culture? If it is, that's a somewhat warped view of women identifying with their patriarchal oppressors.

 

And then you take these guys, don't do drugs, don't drink, never got into trouble, stayed in school ("nerds"), are very nice and genuine, and then you.... what? Shrug them off because, oh, girls just want to have a little fun? Because a guy with a regular job is "boring," because a guy who's never done pot is "in his shell," who goes to bed early to get to the gym and go to his job an "old man"?

 

Is it entitlement to want a girl who will appreciate your hard work, not sleep around on you, is smart, fit, and has similar values to you? I don't know.

 

Is it entitlement, is it "throwing a fit" to be angry and frustrated when you don't get that, and when you see woman after woman line up with not the best guys because "oh he's fun" and "oh she's going through her bad boy phase"?

 

I don't know. But it's a little bit weird to be calling that entitlement.

 

Tl;dr work out be a man learn how to flirt dress well tease women get laid.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Sloppy Zhang

[gendao]

calling strawman is a pretty lousy response but its a good place to hide your misogyny behind.

If my questions were truly misogynist, then you wouldn't have had to create misogynist strawmen to replace them with. So the fact that you did have to create them means...hmm, who's hiding what?

 

Did your Daddy treat your Mother poorly?

Edited June 24, 2014 by vortex

[Nungali]

calling strawman is a pretty lousy response but its a good place to hide your misogyny behind.

 

Its even a lousy explanation of the term

 

strawman ; a person to whom title to property or a business interest is transferred for the sole purpose of concealing the true ownerand/or the business machinations of the parties. Thus, the straw man has no real interest or participation but is merely a passive stand-in for areal participant who secretly controls activities.

 

And here I was assuming you were speaking on behalf of yourself.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Anyone read that "buy a woman a book" thread?

 

Ah, yeah, good times

 

Since I just got done with a long post I'll do another tl;dr (too long, didn't read)

 

Don't listen to what women SAY they want. Observe that they ACTUALLY GO AFTER. Then emulate THAT.

 

Girl after girl, woman after woman, vehemently declaring they want a nice man who will respect them and be nice and available and yadda yadda...

 

But really what they go after is the guy who's a little flirty. A little edgy. A man who they know could get other women (in fact, they may even observe other women flirt with him, and he them!) A man who won't always do exactly what a woman says (and in fact, may actively go against what a woman says).

 

Of course, a woman might say "well of course we want this, but that's not the same as wanting an asshole".

 

And yet, assholes are better at this than beta nice guy "dweebs," so women tend to lean more towards that than the other.

 

At least, if you're talking about women, say, I dunno, 25 and under in the year 2014.

 

Well, that's not true, because I flirt with lots of older ladies seems like they all want the same thing...

Edited June 24, 2014 by Sloppy Zhang

[Nungali]

Well ... I wrote a long post and didnt delete it .

 

I had a great upbringing . Many times, when helping others to deal with their problems, the lack of this ; the stable and nurturing family environment (and I know of at least one single mum that provided that on the street with dinner coming from garbage cans - the son ended up fine ... so I am not talking about material stuff here ). So I think that has to come into perspective .. . . . I would hope not in a negative or mocking way.

 

But here the weird thing happens .... back in ... hmmmm 1963 ? when we shifted into an alternate reality ... 'they' tried to switch it on me ... pretend it never happened ... nor offer any explanation.

 

In about 1959 ? I started attending School; Our Lady Star of the Sea Catholic School. All the boys and girls were happy little tykes. When we went on an outing they pared us up; a line of girls and a line of boys, then you held hands with the girl opposite and off you went in two columns down the street. We were told we were responsible for each other and to look after your partner. The people in the street would ooh and ahh at us "Look at those cute little kids from the catholic school!"

 

Then, I went on summer holidays... all was normal, I returned to 'big school' ... all that had been explained except when I got there all the girls were gone. I wasnt told why I was told however if I talked to them I would be strapped across the palms with a leather strap . Come to think of it, those strange penguin type nuns were gone too and a new type of man teacher was there. When in school uniform - segregation ... a line drawn at the bus stop with a no-mans (or no boys and girls) land and boys one end and girls the other, with the occasional patrolling teacher going by in a car to bust infringements.

 

Then , I began to notice, the girls uniforms started getting a sorta curvy shape and I am sure they were making their dresses shorter (which of course the Nuns kept in check with a ruler (NOT used as a measure - if your dress was the correct length you wouldnt feel the ruler on the back of your knees would you? ).

 

I was a little busy though ... most of the time spent discovering ways to avoid school abuse and oppression from both some teachers and students. Yep ... I was a dork .... so much so I was a virgin until I was 20 ...... 20!

 

Well, I wont describe THAT teenage angst ! yes, girls detected it and used it. I also detected that some girls were in the same boat as me in the strange world of girls.

 

OH! You thought that never played out in that world ?

 

Anyway, I got lucky ... eventually .... there was something about me she liked ... ..

 

Now ... like upbringing and having daddy treat mummy good (and visa versa) ... one's first sex experience is also 'meta-programming'.

 

MIne was great. I wont describe how fantastic it was (especially after the adolescent space-desert my sex-life was previously ) as, we (friends) sometimes would talk about our first sexual experience, occasionally a new person would be glum in the conversation and then describe a childhood molestation as their first sex experience or being raped by three guys.

 

Well that puts a downer on that 'game' ! Again, one has to remember at times one's past and situation ... and other's.

 

It could have all turned out different for me ... like it did for others. Maybe, if I assumed that someone hadnt switched universes on me back in 1963 and that the women that were taunting me were doing it to make me suffer and not giving me what I thought I wanted back then, I might have somehow not attracted that first wonderful lover... and showed me what to do and the best way to do it. . . .which I am sure held me in good report and perpetuated an ongoing situation.

 

But ... like all types of abuse and neglect and lack of nurturing ... some play it out different ... I know that from my experiences working in refugee location .... oppression can create a casualty or a lion of a person.

 

So no, I cant really judge ... 'cause, who knows what and where from others have come from?

 

All I know is we have to do what we can to stop the wheels of negative karma spinning endless more cycles of ignorance. The buck stops here ... people that heal best address their own issues without projecing things on to others or blaming them ... even if it is 'their fault'. My theory is ; assist the casualties and educate the perpetrators and restrict their actions.

 

It is this old system that oppresses the individual expression of genius of men ... as well as women.

[Yascra]

 

We may well be going backwards.

 

omfg, it took me some time to realize that this stupid watching woman was really trying to blame the guy who was disturbed during showering. I think the most natural thing to do would have been to give the girls some hint that this behaviour is not ... nice? :-p

[Nungali]

Umm yeah .... girls do get told it isnt nice to laugh at boys willies ... but then they come back with "But they look so silly."

 

Well ... what can I say about that ... I am certainly not going to explain it to them !

 

As 'sexist' as this might sound to some .... that's a womans job !

 

And I would hope it would be well done , by their mother or older sister or someone responsible .