Tai Chi 4 Martial Art

[ChiDragon]

Taiji Quan was originally created as a martial art. Yang Luchan was a great fighter, and many other masters as well. But that was too long ago. Nowadays, you'll hardly find a Taiji Quan teacher that can beat an average boxer. That's why most of the teachers don't like to demonstrate their fighting skills: they simply can't fight.

 

Boxing is different from Tai Chi fighting. The boxing gloves are a big handicap for a Tai Ji practitioner.

[Andrei]

Not for a San Da practitioner

[Ya Mu]

Chen Pan Ling Tai Jee is a form where the teacher knows exactly what each form does martially and consists of the use of engineering principles like analysis of force vectors and moment arms.

I would agree that far too many teachers in the US have no idea what it is they are teaching. One can't simply remove the design of a system and say it is something else just because they want it to be or because they themselves weren't taught the completeness of a system.

[zenyogi]

Thanks all for your contributions. Helped a lot

[CloudHands]

I think the debate is not about what the original purpose but on how it's utilized nowadays. Even people claiming tai chi as a martial art don't fight. Let's try not to be that manichean ... if nobody here said that Tai Chi is not a martial art, there is obviously not only martial applications.

When we talk about design, I suppose you know who Yang Chengfu is and that Yang style is today the most popular style by far. If this man adapted tai chi to "general practitioners" including old people, it is not to make warriors of them.

I remember learning an accomplished Chinese master known for his skills and power saying he started Tai Chi because he had very poor health condition so it's not brand new.

 

 

Yang Chengfu removed the vigorous fā jìn (發勁 release of power) from the Hand (solo) Form, as well as the energetic jumping, stamping, and other abrupt movements in order to emphasise the Da jia (大架 large frame style), but retained them in the Weapons (sword, saber, staff and spear) forms.^[3] The Hand Form has slow, steady, expansive and soft movements suitable for general practitioners. Thus, Yang Chengfu is largely responsible for standardizing and popularizing the Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan widely practised today.^{[Note 1]}

[Vitalii]

Let’s remember the history of the Yang style. Having arrived in Beijing, Yang Luchan earned the nickname “Yang the Invincible” when fighting different opponents. Later, he began to teach Taiji Quan to the members of the royal family and nobles, and to those who had a genuine interest in the art, he transferred the knowledge entirely. Of course, the full amount of transferred knowledge was not easy to learn, and included many complexes and methods of training.

 

However, after the fall of the imperial dynasty, Yang families were forced to earn their living by teaching Taiji Quan to everyone. In order to make it possible, it was necessary to make the style more accessible and easy. Moreover, the Yang families had no desire to disclose all the secrets of marital arts to anyone who wanted it. For these reasons, the style taught to a wide public had to be simplified.

 

It is also known that the sons of Yang Luchan – Yang Jianhou and Yang Banhou – although had a full knowledge of the family style, yet taught only some of its sections. Thus, Yang Banhou taught mainly the Large and Small frame, and Yang Jianhou taught the Large frame and the Old frame. The son of Yang Jianhou, Yang Chengfu, taught mainly the Large frame to all students, and the complex Long Fist (Changquan) was given only to the elected disciples. In such a way, we can see that different representatives of the Yang family taught their students in different ways, and did not disclose all of their secrets not only to a wide audience, but sometimes even to their close disciples.

So, what do we have today? The majority of practitioners of Taiji Quan Yang style do only one form, where movements are slow and soft. They usually say that, to use Taiji Quan in a real fight, one needs to practice them for at least 5-10 years. Frankly speaking, even if you practice a slow form for 20 years, you still will not be ready to defend yourself. It is a well-known fact that Yang Luchan and his son Yang Banhou trained a special battalion of the Imperial Army called Shenjiying, and their preparation for a real fight needed to be quick and effective, and could not last for years. Now, it makes one wonder: does Taiji Quan Yang style really have only one, slow form? The answer to this question is simple: the form is, of course, not the only one. There are several forms, and they are performed in a different manner and with different accents.

Therefore, a complete traditional practice of Taiji Quan Yang style includes not only the slow form, but a number of other forms and methods, where one can work on strength, speed, agility, quick execution of movements with a focus on the release of the power issuing (Fajin); there is also training of fast and precision buffets, etc.

[Dark Templar]

 

Boxing is different from Tai Chi fighting. The boxing gloves are a big handicap for a Tai Ji practitioner.

 

That doesn't matter. Boxers can fight without their gloves. Taiji teachers (most of them) can't fight with or without gloves. And those few who can got their fighting skills from their past experience, not from Taiji Quan practice.

Just ask any Taiji teacher to demonstrate his fighting skills, and you'll hear that "it's too dangerous" or something like this. The truth is Taiji teachers don't fight, and modern Taiji Quan is not a martial art.

[CloudHands]

There is some details I didn't know, thank you for that.

 

So through the Zhen Dao Pai website you claim to be an inner circle disciple. So what do you practice ? Hebrew or Latin ?

[Vitalii]

There is some details I didn't know, thank you for that.

 

you are welcome ))

 

So what do you practice ? Hebrew or Latin ?

 

Could you clarify your question?

[CloudHands]

You are the perfect person to answer the topic : do you have supreme fighting skills ?

[Vitalii]

You are the perfect person to answer the topic : do you have supreme fighting skills ?

 

Yes, I have a fighting skills.

[ChiDragon]

That doesn't matter. Boxers can fight without their gloves. Taiji teachers (most of them) can't fight with or without gloves. And those few who can got their fighting skills from their past experience, not from Taiji Quan practice.

Just ask any Taiji teacher to demonstrate his fighting skills, and you'll hear that "it's too dangerous" or something like this. The truth is Taiji teachers don't fight, and modern Taiji Quan is not a martial art.

 

Hi, DT

What you said is true that Taiji teachers don't fight. It is because, nowadays, most people are practicing the art for healthy purposes only. Actually, the modern Taiji Quan you were referring to is only the first level of Taiji. For health purpose, that's all one needs to learn and practice. However, the art itself is a martial art as questioned by the OP.

 

The most common techniques used in Taiji are grab and hold to get the opponent off balance. My argument was that with the boxing gloves with disable the ability for a Taiji practitioner. That besides the point, the modern Taiji practitioner can build a tremendous body energy in the muscles. Even unintentionally, one can get hurt pretty deadly.

 

This just happened to me recently. I had practiced the art for years and develop a tremendous jin in my muscles. I have volunteered to teacher the art in a senior community. I thought I'll do a little demo with my jin and that was my worse regret in my life. I ask a lady to stand still and relax. I put my right lower arm against her left upper arm and applied a slight jolt(not a push) on her. I expected her to move side way and try to keep her balance. Instead, she didn't but fell straight down to the ground due to the unbalance of herself. She got up and said she was OK. She also start telling everybody how strong I was. Unfortunately, she came back the next week and told me she had blues on her buttock, right elbow and a bump on her head.

 

My teach had warned me to be careful who I touch after a long time practice of Taiji. Now, I only do the demo on a person and be sure there is a wall next to the person to lean on. Indeed, Taiji is deadly even without the intention to hurt someone.

 

PS....

I didn't know her physical condition. Afterward, the lead person of community told me she was sorry that I wasn't warn about the lady's condition. Anyway, the demo was not meant to put her on the floor. It was really just a slight jolt to demonstrate the jin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Dark Templar]

However, the art itself is a martial art as questioned by the OP.

 

Hi ChiDragon,

That depends on what is "the art itself" in your understanding. Yang Luchan's Taiji was a martial art, that's totally true. Modern Yang is not. Both are called "Yang style Taiji Quan", but they are simply different things.

Sure, one can hurt an untrained partner, especially a lady. But that doesn't make Taiji a martial art. Applying these skills in a real fight is way different.

A lot of people telling that 'their' Taiji is a martial art, but none can prove it, i.e. show real fighting skills with a real partner that can fight (a boxer or kick-boxer or someone similar).

[Andrei]

But that doesn't make Taiji a martial art.

 

Yes it does. It's just you have to train for specific purpose.

Taichi as practiced nowadays is only the Taolu.

Taichi has many methods training all of them are for fighting purposes.

Taichi has beside taolu, tuishou, sanshou, sanda, weapons, weight training, zhanzhuang (which is the most important for power) and not at the least neigong. They all are different types of training and if you didn't found a teacher that is teaching all of them don't blame Taichi, blame the teacher that does not teach you or blame you because you don't search carefully.

 

 

[Dark Templar]

Yes it does. It's just you have to train for specific purpose.

Taichi as practiced nowadays is only the Taolu.

Taichi has many methods training all of them are for fighting purposes.

Taichi has beside taolu, tuishou, sanshou, sanda, weapons, weight training, zhanzhuang (which is the most important for power) and not at the least neigong. They all are different types of training and if you didn't found a teacher that is teaching all of them don't blame Taichi, blame the teacher that does not teach you or blame you because you don't search carefully.

 

Hi Andrei,

I know of all these trainings, but have you seen any real fight of a Taiji master with a boxer/kick-boxer? The videos you provided show staged scenes.

[Andrei]

Yes, I've seen myself, when I participated in local sanda championships. I didn't train for the competion but sparring, zhan zhuang and qigong to recover my injuries during sparring. So yes I can train the whole Taichi curriculum just as master Wong is doing on youtube or just as I learned from my teacher who learned at the Wushu Academy in Beijing. I can teach people to fight with gloves and without gloves, with grapplers and strikers either they are BJJ or Muai Thay, just with Taichi techniques, but with proper training. And I know where are the holes in the training of "boxers/kickboxers" because I've seen them and we trained to cover those holes. MMA is much more closer to Taichi because the ancient real combat taichi was back in the days what is MMA today a mixture of kicking punching and grappling techniques.

[Dark Templar]

Yes, I've seen myself, when I participated in local sanda championships. I didn't train for the competion but sparring, zhan zhuang and qigong to recover my injuries during sparring. So yes I can train the whole Taichi curriculum just as master Wong is doing on youtube or just as I learned from my teacher who learned at the Wushu Academy in Beijing. I can teach people to fight with gloves and without gloves, with grapplers and strikers either they are BJJ or Muai Thay, just with Taichi techniques, but with proper training. And I know where are the holes in the training of "boxers/kickboxers" because I've seen them and we trained to cover those holes. MMA is much more closer to Taichi because the ancient real combat taichi was back in the days what is MMA today a mixture of kicking punching and grappling techniques.

 

Is there any video (except stagings) that shows how Taiji can be successfully applied against boxing/kickboxing/MMA/BJJ/Muai Thay?

Edited June 25, 2014 by Dark Templar

[Andrei]

Yes there are CCTV shows with Taichi fighting vs other styles, as soon as I find on youtube I'll show you. Then there are Sanda vs Muay Thai (China vs Thailanda). I am saying of Sanda because Taichi matches are similar with Sanda. I will provide here on this thread if I find those videos. I used to collect them just for arguments like this one but I quit at some point and let it gone. But taichi as practiced in China by some purists is pretty violent. Yang styles as known today in the west not so much but Chen stylists and old Yang stiles that are similar to Chen village style which is the style is supposed to be learned by Yang Lu Chan. Also there is Zhao Bao village style which is closer to ancient taichi as learned by Yang Lu Chan.

[Andrei]

Just the other day I saw on facebook a video about a MMA guy which is a taichi player

 

 

[Andrei]

[Andrei]

[Miles]

In such a way, we can see that different representatives of the Yang family taught their students in different ways, and did not disclose all of their secrets not only to a wide audience, but sometimes even to their close disciples.

very interesting.

[Andrei]

As promised:

 

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Question....
On the last two videos....???
What is your opinion about the size and strength of both, are they an equal or a fair match in the arena....???

[Dark Templar]

Yes there are CCTV shows with Taichi fighting vs other styles, as soon as I find on youtube I'll show you. Then there are Sanda vs Muay Thai (China vs Thailanda). I am saying of Sanda because Taichi matches are similar with Sanda. I will provide here on this thread if I find those videos. I used to collect them just for arguments like this one but I quit at some point and let it gone. But taichi as practiced in China by some purists is pretty violent. Yang styles as known today in the west not so much but Chen stylists and old Yang stiles that are similar to Chen village style which is the style is supposed to be learned by Yang Lu Chan. Also there is Zhao Bao village style which is closer to ancient taichi as learned by Yang Lu Chan.

Ok, thank you for the videos. I have a lot of questions regarding them (for example, on the first video the guy doesn't use Taiji in fight, so he doesn't practice Taiji for fighting skills), but I simply don't want to proceed with this debate.

BTW, I agree that Chen and Zhao Bao are more "martial" than modern Yang.