Wu Wei meaning non-selfish action

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The character for wei is a claw leading an elephant, which suggests forceful action, leading, governing; but, when action is done for one's own purpose, selfishly, without thought of the other that is being led, this is when things are "forced," this is when action leads astray from the will of Heaven, the cosmic order, and the micro-cosmic order of humanity.

 

I think "Textual Studies" would be a good place to discuss meanings (edit: and translations) and such (since so many texts discussed meanings too)..

Edited June 26, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Yes, I think this could be a very worthy discussion/study. The concept of "selfless action" has been important in the better part of my life.

 

Perhaps you who read Chinese can find the roots of the two concepts, selfless action and wu wei, so that we can have a nice discussion based on earlier thinking rather than just our owm opinions.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thank you for taking me to task once again Marblehead. I knew it wouldn't be long before I'd find an example in the Dao De Jing, and lo and behold, Chapter Two shows a good example of both of these concepts:

 

....

Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action [處無為之事 makes it his business to maintain wu wei] and practices the teaching that uses no words.

The myriad creatures rise from it yet it claims no authority;
It gives them life yet claims no possession;
It benefits them yet exacts no gratitude;
It accomplishes its task yet lays claim to no merit.

It is because it lays claim to no merit
That its merit never deserts it.

 

(trans. D.C. Lau)

 

This translation takes some liberty in adding a subject to the sentence, ie. "It" gives them life and they rise from "it", rather than the more literal "Life is given yet not taken possession of." Adding "It" ascribes all of this to Dao or perhaps wu wei, but the absence of a subject in these lines suggests that it is the Sage (the only subject mentioned) who acts selflessly and wu wei.

[Marblehead]

Yes, at least "It" signifies that we are not talking dirctly about the Sage in those lines. Henricks' translation reads that these attributes are the Sage's but I think that cannot be supported.

 

I feel comfortable thinking that "It" is actually Tao and Te. This idea is supported later in Chapter 51.

 

And of the above quote, I feel that there should be a blank line after the first line to indicate that in the first line we are talking about the Sage and the other six lines are talking about Tao and Te.

 

And yes, Tao and Te are functioning from a state of wu wei as well as in a selfless manner.

 

But sure, the Sage tries to emulate the Te of Tao. That is where his/her acts of selflessness arise from.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Marblehead

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, at least "It" signifies that we are not talking dirctly about the Sage in those lines. Henricks' translation reads that these attributes are the Sage's but I think that cannot be supported.

 

I feel comfortable thinking that "It" is actually Tao and Te. This idea is supported later in Chapter 51.

 

And of the above quote, I feel that there should be a blank line after the first line to indicate that in the first line we are talking about the Sage and the other six lines are talking about Tao and Te.

 

And yes, Tao and Te are functioning from a state of wu wei as well as in a selfless manner.

 

But sure, the Sage tries to emulate the Te of Tao. That is where his/her acts of selflessness arise from.

 

 

Note that the paragraph structure is the same in Chapter 51, where it is stated that "The Way gives birth to them, nourishes them..." and then the following sentences have no subject, so it is assumed that they take on the subject of the opening statement, in this case Dao, but in Chapter Two, the Sage.

 

I would suggest that it is not simply emulation of De and Dao, but supporting the course of De and Dao by non-interference; letting De and Dao manifest unhindered by the Sage's self-interests. As we know (from chapter 51), De and Dao support Life and Goodness, nourishment, and progress. So the Sage would align himself thuswards as well.

 

Wu wei can be active, and still be wu wei, so long as it is action in support of, or in obedience to, De, Dao, and "the will of Heaven." Then of course there is the question "how does the Sage know the will of Heaven?" By being "empty." Can't get any more voicemails when the mailbox is full. Remain empty and messages can come in.

[Marblehead]

Nice response. In this case I'm glad I can't read Chinese and then have to defend my translation/interpretation. Hehehe.

 

Valid argument you made regarding the comparison between Chapter 2 and 51.

 

But even so, I think Lau's translation is giving too much credit to the Sage.

 

Henricks uses the pronoun "he", referring directly to the Sage:

 

11. The ten thousand things arise, but he doesn't begin them;
12. He acts on their behalf, but he doesn't make them dependent;
13. He accomplishes his tasks, but he doesn't dwell on them;
14. It is only because he doesn't dwell on them, that they therefore do not leave them.

 

Looking at Lau's translation again, his pronoun "it" could be referring to "wu wei".

 

However, I do like the way you phrased your second and third paragraphs.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Marblehead

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Was just looking at Chapter 38 while responding to another thread and saw the following:

 

The man of superior character never acts,
Nor ever (does so) with an ulterior motive.
The man of inferior character acts,
And (does so) with an ulterior motive.

 

上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為

Highest virtue is without WEI and thereby there is no WEI. Lowest virtue's action has the origin of WEI.

 

Wei is traslated here as "ulterior motive."

[Marblehead]

Yep, that was my initial understanding of wu wei - to not act with ulterior motive. Everything in the open.

 

Of the above, line two contradicts line one but that is likely bcause of the translation requirements.

 

"Without ulterior motive" would not necessarily preclude selfish acts though. I think that we all are selfish at some level. We do have to take care of ourself. Few others would be willing to do it for us.

 

And line three is a little harsh, IMO. "Inferior character" connotes all forms of deformities. (I did what the boss wanted me to do because I wanted to get promoted. This doesn't sound like inferior character to me.)

 

Yeah, there is still a fair difference between idealism and reality.

[ChiDragon]

Was just looking at Chapter 38 while responding to another thread and saw the following:

 

The man of superior character never acts,

Nor ever (does so) with an ulterior motive.

The man of inferior character acts,

And (does so) with an ulterior motive.

 

上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為

Highest virtue is without WEI and thereby there is no WEI. Lowest virtue's action has the origin of WEI.

 

Wei is traslated here as "ulterior motive."

 

What do you think if the lines were rephrase like this:

The man of superior character with Wu Wei has no motive;

The man of inferior character acts with an ulterior motive.

 

In the TTC, 無為(Wu Wei) is always in a form compound characters. They shouldn't be breaking up to translate separately; it will change Laozi's whole philosophy of Wu Wei completely.

 

Edited June 30, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yep, that was my initial understanding of wu wei - to not act with ulterior motive. Everything in the open.

 

Of the above, line two contradicts line one but that is likely bcause of the translation requirements.

 

"Without ulterior motive" would not necessarily preclude selfish acts though. I think that we all are selfish at some level. We do have to take care of ourself. Few others would be willing to do it for us.

 

And line three is a little harsh, IMO. "Inferior character" connotes all forms of deformities. (I did what the boss wanted me to do because I wanted to get promoted. This doesn't sound like inferior character to me.)

 

Yeah, there is still a fair difference between idealism and reality.

 

The reason he translates wei as "ulterior motive" is due to the nature of the character functioning as force. An ulterior motive would mean to manipulate someone, forcing them into whatever. Manipulating someone else for one's own ends is perhaps the best single definition of selfishness I could come up with. Building a retirement fund is working towards one's own ends but doesn't necessitate selfishness, iykwim.

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I do like the concept of "without force" in any discussion of wu wei as well. (Although I don't always practice it.)

[dawei]

Was just looking at Chapter 38 while responding to another thread and saw the following:

 

The man of superior character never acts,

Nor ever (does so) with an ulterior motive.

The man of inferior character acts,

And (does so) with an ulterior motive.

 

上德無為而無以為；下德為之而有以為

Highest virtue is without WEI and thereby there is no WEI. Lowest virtue's action has the origin of WEI.

 

Wei is traslated here as "ulterior motive."

 

I know you have mentioned the Yellow Emperor's Four Canons... I starting going through the books I have.

 

 

"One should not act until he has to act; when one acts he acts with prudence, according to what is fitting with the Dao of Heaven."

 

-- Section Eleven: Basis for Military Expedition

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Do I hear a "wu wei in the Huangdi Sijing" thread coming up?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I think we ought to have multiple understandings of each phrase.

Wuwei could be characterized as without action , but could also be "without motive," it could also be "without provocation."

Wei has picked up quite a number of different meanings throughout Chinese history,

here is what my current dictionary says

 

do, act

serve as

act as

become

be, mean(ing)

in the interest of, for

because of

for the purpose of

towards

stand for (support)

 

they are all closely related in meaning, but then again,

同出而異名，同謂之玄。玄之又玄，衆妙之門。

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Wei can function in many ways grammatically, but wu wei as a compound character carries a number of "assumptions," shall we say.

 

"Wuwei could be characterized as without action , but could also be "without motive," it could also be "without provocation."

 

right, this more or less illustrates the point I would say..

[dust]

we can have a nice discussion based on earlier thinking rather than just our owm opinions.

 

Well, if I may bring the GD in... and I apologize if I appear to be beating a dead horse with any of the following ideas. Or if it just sounds like nonsense.

 

 

亡爲

 

 

We have 亡 wang "death", instead of 无 wu.

In this context, 亡 means absence, but the death connotation implies to me quite a significant, absolute absence.

 

衜恆亡爲也 Dao eternal absence of Wei

侯王能支之 Ruler ability to lean on

而萬勿將自而欲作 Ten thousand things will themselves automatically Zuo as they want

 

Clearly Dao can't really be said to have a complete absence of action, as it is the origin of all action and non-action, so being absent of Wei, it must be absent a certain kind of doing. 作 Zuo is written here as 乍 + 又, a hand and blade chopping wood, originally meaning to cut or chop wood to make things with, and here simply to do or to make.

 

So, 爲 Wei describes a specific type of action, and 作 Zuo another.

 

Zuo and Wei are found together in ch.2 also:

 

萬勿作而弗怠也 Ten thousand things Zuo and not begin

為而弗志也 Wei and not ambitious

 

And..that's all I have to say for now.

[ChiDragon]

● 亡

wú ㄨˊ

　◎ 古同“无”，没有。

In the ancient (古), 亡 is a synonym for “无”

Please consider to look at the second definition in the following reference:
Ref: http://www.zdic.net/z/15/js/4EA1.htm

Edited November 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Well this conversation died...

[Marblehead]

Well this conversation died...

We all went wu wei.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Was a bit delighted to read the following article today which touched on the points I was putting forth in the OP here.

 

 

http://ymaa.com/articles/the-dao-of-kung-fu?utm_expid=1405513-2.WuymPi-ESZiQA5K9wPC3ZA.0

[dawei]

I'll take up a comment from another thread... H.E. Said:

 

If the motivation is selfish, this is not wu wei; while selfless action is what might be called wei wu wei, or wu wei in action.

 

This made me wonder about a so-called Daoist saying to 'heal self first'. This seems somewhat motivated, but is that selfish?

[ChiDragon]

It would be selfish if, only if, causing harm to others during the course of "heal self first".

[Marblehead]

Was a bit delighted to read the following article today which touched on the points I was putting forth in the OP here.

 

 

http://ymaa.com/articles/the-dao-of-kung-fu?utm_expid=1405513-2.WuymPi-ESZiQA5K9wPC3ZA.0

That is an excellent article! Very honest and factual based on my understandings.

[Marblehead]

I'll take up a comment from another thread... H.E. Said:

 

If the motivation is selfish, this is not wu wei; while selfless action is what might be called wei wu wei, or wu wei in action.

 

This made me wonder about a so-called Daoist saying to 'heal self first'. This seems somewhat motivated, but is that selfish?

Yes, this can be easily misunderstood, I think. I suggest that if we do not take good care of ourself forst we will be unable to attain a state of wu wei. We must be capable of responding to unexpected external conditions. (Afterall, we cannot control external conditions.)

 

I will give my support to the statement "heal self first". But this should be based on intention. "Why are we doing this?" Selfishness for personal gain or for protection of self and others?

[Marblehead]

It would be selfish if, only if, causing harm to others during the course of "heal self first".

Hehehe. Even that one is tricky. Some people just keep getting in the way so that they must be removed from one's environment.