What can masculinism do for women?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Thread rules: no insults to each other nor genders, that doesn't help anything.

 

I think it does a lot for women in the fact that men are becoming stronger in their true inner power, instead of false ideals that society tells them to be like. Also the more powerful (in the true sense, not false power) men become, the less they need to try to exert power over others (this rings true for women as well of course). The focus has been mostly on women coming into their power, but fortunately more recently there has been more of a focus of men coming into their power as well. I see this as a very awesome thing for everyone as a whole.

 

I feel that there are many unrealistic expectations which have been put on men in the past; have to be the primary breadwinner, always have to be strong, always have to lift and carry everything, have to look like a bodybuilder. Well these are worn out and outdated ideals. Sure if that is how someone wishes to be then it is good, but why should all people be expected to act the same way?

 

Also, for men, it is still derogatory to be called "gay". This is bad for 2 reasons, it puts society pressure on men to act in ways which might be unnatural to them. It puts down people who do choose to be gay as a relationship preference.

[silent thunder]

For me most of the issues come from identification within duality under false pretenses.

Yin and Yang are not separate, nor are male, female; light, dark; or any other 'opposites'.

 

The process of gender identification is expressed individually, and forms within the parameters of family and culture and each individual expresses qualities of both in varying degrees throughout life, in a cyclical flow.

 

Yin and Yang traits flow throughout all life in varying degrees of balance and extreme and no where is there an example of one without the other. Male and Female are not separate things, they are expressions in varying degrees of extreme, of the same thing.

 

I possess and foster/cultivate many feminine qualities and I'm a six foot viking guy.

My wife excels at many masculine activities and yet, is still utterly and literally a woman.

 

For me the most effective focus to express peacefulness is to allow expression of full being in myself and any/all others.

This includes all life, not just humans.

 

The way I act in order to achieve this, is that I follow an impulse. The impulse comes in reaction to the conditions that I'm experiencing and it operates on a fairly simple premise from what I've gathered in observing it...

 

- if no one is being harmed, leave it alone

- if harm is being done, do I possess the wisdom to make it better? then act completely, without hesitation.

- if not, leave it alone.

 

- silence is often my best answer

[zanshin]

Mnemonics 

Edited April 19, 2020 by zanshin

[GreytoWhite]

Poor Non, at times I felt like he was channeling an earlier version of myself.

[GrandmasterP]

Stephen Whitehead is the 'go to' guy for masculinities...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Masculinities-Reader-Stephen-Whitehead/dp/0745626890/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403903125&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Masculinities+Reader

 

Thoroughly super excellent chap.

He was a Prof at Keele University who went off and ordained as a Buddhist monk in Thailand.

He's still out there and cultivating as a married layman now.

Once had him ( pre-monk days) in to give a talk to some undergraduates.

Just about the most interesting speaker we ever had.

Top chap, very interesting views on masculinities too.

Edited June 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

"Male power; patriarchy; management and organizations; sexualities; gay friendships; sport; intimacy; identity; hegemonic masculinity; violence; schooling; language; homophobia; Black, Latino and Chicano masculinities; families; media; postmodernism; and subjectivity."

 

( Blurb from Masculinities Reader).

 

It's a big area is masculinities.

Edited June 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[tyler zambori]

-

Edited July 2, 2014 by tyler zambori

[C T]

I am curious to know what "masculinism" in the thread title means. Rather, is it possible to drop the label and list the qualities you (BKA and others) are referring to?

Yeah labels are none too helpful.

 

A guy who's comfortable in his own skin is un-label-able. He tries mindfully to relate to/interact with others based on merits, i guess. Being non-discriminative, he carves his own niche in the world while all the time bettering his own limitations in order to do that. He learns to accept people as individuals and learn early in life that pettiness and narrow world-views are not cool as that keeps him caged up leading (naturally) to overwhelming needs to think and act defensively most days. Then he gets ulcers and other unpleasanties, and not understand why these things happen to him, being that he thinks he is the nicest guy in the world.

 

A true man requires no reasons, excuses or compensatory attitudes to seek for equality and fairness in his engagement with life.

 

A true man is neither soft nor hard, for he stands in the middle at all times.

 

A true man is shaped by what he perceives to be qualities yet hidden within, not by what others are quick to sling at him.

 

A true man is unmoved by false pretences, and fully moved by small, insignificant gestures that others who see less usually overlook.

 

A true man knows himself first, and seeks always to act from that knowledge.

 

A true man is a master unto himself.

[GrandmasterP]

Um...that is quite a mix.

 

It is.

Along the lines of 'feminisms' in a way.

How people perform feminisms or masculinities will vary according to that person, their background, interests, all sorts of factors.

Hence it's next to impossible to generalise around a 'catch all' label like 'feminism' or 'masculinity'.

That's what Whitehead says on masculinities and, elsewhere his Keele colleague Prof Miriam David ( a first wave feminist) has to say about 'feminisms'.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thread rules: no insults to each other nor genders, that doesn't help anything.

 

I think it does a lot for women in the fact that men are becoming stronger in their true inner power, instead of false ideals that society tells them to be like. Also the more powerful (in the true sense, not false power) men become, the less they need to try to exert power over others (this rings true for women as well of course). The focus has been mostly on women coming into their power, but fortunately more recently there has been more of a focus of men coming into their power as well. I see this as a very awesome thing for everyone as a whole.

 

I feel that there are many unrealistic expectations which have been put on men in the past; have to be the primary breadwinner, always have to be strong, always have to lift and carry everything, have to look like a bodybuilder. Well these are worn out and outdated ideals. Sure if that is how someone wishes to be then it is good, but why should all people be expected to act the same way?

 

Also, for men, it is still derogatory to be called "gay". This is bad for 2 reasons, it puts society pressure on men to act in ways which might be unnatural to them. It puts down people who do choose to be gay as a relationship preference.

 

All good points, in the late 60s once I got over my dismay at women burning their bras, I realized that the roles and limitations placed on women at the time were ridiculous and demeaning, but it also opened my eyes to a similar situation with male roles, ever since I have thought of the whole issue in terms of Gender Liberation, and the possibility of someone experiencing themselves and their full potential outside of socially prescibed norms.

[GrandmasterP]

+1

I enjoy Duck Dynasty on TV.

I also enjoy some shows featuring camp gay men.

Those Robertson men in Duck Dynasty are mens' men in a rather old fashioned sense.

Husky outdoorsy guys.

The camp gay guys are men too.

It's all good.

One thing that's not so good though is that maybe an out gay and camp man might not feel so 'at home' in West Monroe ( home of Duck Dynasty).

Not to generalise nor accuse West Monroe or Duck Dynasty of homophobia ( I've never seen any on there) just to say that we've still a road to travel for true equity when all sorts of women and men can feel 'at home' anywhere in the world.

Edited June 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[BaguaKicksAss]

I am curious to know what "masculinism" in the thread title means. Rather, is it possible to drop the label and list the qualities you (BKA and others) are referring to?

 

Someone on the other thread about "how feminism benefits men" that us ladies would get all up in arms (or perhaps everyone, not just ladies) if there was a thread about how "masculinism" (his term) affects women. So I'm just taking it to mean what feminism does, but for men. So I'm taking it to mean anything which helps to empower men . Also I have been seeing many men work on this sort of thing for themselves for a couple of decades now, and think it is pretty awesome. Men are often expected to be (generally) either the stereotypical role, or completely emasculated; neither is good imo, we should be who we are naturally as individuals, imo.

[HoldorFold]

I'm just going to drop this David Deida vid here called "Exploring the Masculine Search for Freedom and the Feminine Search for Love". Worth a listen if you have an hour to spare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtdlCfrmDnc

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

Another interesting thing to ponder.. recently now that more than 2 genders is finally being accepted, and some people just prefer to be listed as neither, or both or fluid, or whatever gender they identify as. This imo just goes to show that how we perceive and try to mold (from birth) "male" and "female" and "man" and "woman" is far to limiting. Cool if someone does in fact fit the traditional roles and descriptions, but also cool if they don't, and also cool if they want to enhance who they are as a person.

[silent thunder]

I suspect that those who really fit the 'normal' gender roles in society are pretty few.

Who doesn't have a few 'odd' habits and tendencies?

 

So far, no one I've ever met and got to know even remotely well falls in line with 'normal'.

[GrandmasterP]

I have a tea mug from where we used to go on holiday that says...

" Normal for Norfolk"

 

Anectdotally that's a region- specific psychiatric diagnosis.

Edited June 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Aetherous]

It's the trend these days to assume that gender roles are contrived, invented, unjustly enforced, and almost completely bogus. Our culture basically unconsciously believes and teaches this to all of us, at least since the 1960s.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think men do better when they have the masculine gender role as their ideal, and that men experience bad effects if they don't believe in masculinity, or if they think they are or should be feminine.

Not saying that anyone's personal life choices are wrong. Maybe straying away from the idea of a gender role will actually bring about positive results (which are more akin to true masculinity, than the misunderstood gender role of it). Just saying that males do better when there are masculine role models they can look up to, and masculine wisdom they can apply to their own lives. Not knowing who you are, not knowing what you stand for, what you should strive for, how to live...how can these things be good at all?

I do agree that the gender roles can be bad if forced upon people...for instance, telling a boy he needs to man up and play football or something. Our society turns out false men, these days (you know the type, loud obnoxious fatass football watchers who have bikini babe posters in their man caves, etc).

 

True manhood is still there, but it isn't understood as true manhood...for instance, a jovial/care free/friendly/helping attitude, I view as being more truly masculine...than a father being dismissive and agitated by his young son and yelling at him to be more of a man. That type of father isn't a man at all...he can't even handle his own emotions, and doesn't even have love for his own kid. In my view, true masculinity is compassion itself...not what we see today in adult men.

So basically...gender roles say something, but can we understand the whole truth of what they're saying after all of these years of having forgotten what a true man really is? It's not that manhood is lost...it's just that it's not clearly defined. Maybe it's even intentionally muddled.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Aetherous

[HoldorFold]

I mentioned in another thread some statistics.

Men are 80% more likely to be homeless than women, 3 times more likely to commit suicide, 2/3 homicides are male victims and more robberies, assaults and general violence are perpetrated against men. Boys are now also underperforming in schools compared to girls.

 

This might point to there being something awry for men in our society which mainly focuses on womens issues to whatever effect.

 

And trying to tame the masculine by denying gender differences is only going to strengthen the shadow in the long run.

Edited June 27, 2014 by HoldorFold

[dawei]

The concept of 'roles' is already creating something artifical... it starts so young: put blue on infant boys and pink on infant girls.

 

Did they worry this 4,000 years ago? Maybe their way of identifying gender was simply different... and they did construct a division of labor as hunter-gatherers... So yes, there are some 'roles' towards survival of the clan.

 

But today, the group doesn't seem to matter any more... it seems more about the individual and what is their perceive reality.

[silent thunder]

The concept of 'roles' is already creating something artifical... it starts so young: put blue on infant boys and pink on infant girls.

 

Did they worry this 4,000 years ago? Maybe their way of identifying gender was simply different... and they did construct a division of labor as hunter-gatherers... So yes, there are some 'roles' towards survival of the clan.

 

But today, the group doesn't seem to matter any more... it seems more about the individual and what is their perceive reality.

Good point!

Roles is such a key word and it's totally artificial.

If we quizzed each man about what a real man is, we'd get how many different answers?

 

As many answers as men we ask.

 

If we did the same for women, do we think there would ever be a real consensus?

Read any news article about gender anything and there is the proof that there is no consensus.

 

We are individuals within an amorphous system of conditions, constantly in flux seeking a solid unchanging definition of something that is always changing... I find much more peace when I stop trying to change everything else and simply allow things that are harming no one, to be as they are... but that's just me.

 

"All groups are grammatical fictions; only individuals exist and each one is unique." RAW

 

I meet everyone as an individual.

Their actions and mine, dictate our reactions and thus define our relationship.

When no harm is done, life thrives.

When harm comes, it's time to stop it, or move on.

 

edit: changed the you's to we's... I'm tired of my speech projecting onto others, trying to keep things closer to home.

Edited June 28, 2014 by silent thunder

[HoldorFold]

The concept of 'roles' is already creating something artifical... it starts so young: put blue on infant boys and pink on infant girls.

 

Did they worry this 4,000 years ago? Maybe their way of identifying gender was simply different... and they did construct a division of labor as hunter-gatherers... So yes, there are some 'roles' towards survival of the clan.

 

But today, the group doesn't seem to matter any more... it seems more about the individual and what is their perceive reality.

 

An oxford professor who is a specialist in autistic spectrum disorders (which mainly affects boys) did a study which has been replicated where newborn infants are shown either a picture of a car or a human face. Overwhelmingly boys would look at the car for longer and girls would look at the face. These studies are "taboo" in the mainstream nowadays though and if you take gender studies in university at this time you are taught that gender is a social construct regardless of these studies (which they won't mention).

 

I'm getting the impression that some people don't want to feel constrained by their gender and so they choose to see it more as a construct. I understand this view as trying to embody the higher truth in which we are all the one genderless supreme being. Unfortunately, since we are incarnated in the world of polarity I have yet to see anyone pull this off to any real merit and it seems to just remain an abstraction wrought with real world issues.

 

Personally, I embrace my masculine polarity and have felt it very strongly while doing semen retention, testicular breathing, condensing jing etc. so when I hear that gender is just a social construct it really just rolls off me like water off a ducks back since I have felt the masculine polarity in myself so strongly.

 

I understand though that this can be gritty jing animalistic stuff and can be very uncomfortable for some especially if we're used to neglecting the "lower realms" for the "higher".

 

 

 

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

An oxford professor who is a specialist in autistic spectrum disorders (which mainly affects boys) did a study which has been replicated where newborn infants are shown either a picture of a car or a human face. Overwhelmingly boys would look at the car for longer and girls would look at the face. These studies are "taboo" in the mainstream nowadays though and if you take gender studies in university at this time you are taught that gender is a social construct regardless of these studies (which they won't mention).

 

I'm getting the impression that some people don't want to feel constrained by their gender and so they choose to see it more as a construct. I understand this view as trying to embody the higher truth in which we are all the one genderless supreme being. Unfortunately, since we are incarnated in the world of polarity I have yet to see anyone pull this off to any real merit and it seems to just remain an abstraction wrought with real world issues.

 

Personally, I embrace my masculine polarity and have felt it very strongly while doing semen retention, testicular breathing, condensing jing etc. so when I hear that gender is just a social construct it really just rolls off me like water off a ducks back since I have felt the masculine polarity in myself so strongly.

 

I understand though that this can be gritty jing animalistic stuff and can be very uncomfortable for some especially if we're used to neglecting the "lower realms" for the "higher".

 

Oh I don't beleive masculinity is a social construct, I beleive that how society expects men to play this out as one though. Instead of honouring how you guys really feel you get all these societal dichotomial expectations.

[Spotless]

At one point my Clairaudience allowed me to hear the different races and hear women and men.

 

One very striking observation was that my body reacted very negatively to two of the races. It was a profound awakening to just how much we are our bones. I was able to adjust to neutrality quickly, in one case almost spontaneously but in the other my entire body needed to adjust to the sound in order to be neutral and it took quite a bit of time.

 

I did not have this reaction to the sounds of women and men but physically my reaction to women has been a wild impairment to my senses for nearly as long as I can remember - certainly I was effected as a very young child (3ish) and I remember certain sensations in reaction to women as early as when I was in the crib. I have noticed many of these same things in my young son.

 

As I have traveled around the world it is obvious that these instinctive traits are everywhere. Regarding races we somewhat naturally want to kill or subjugat "our genetic enemies" and the dislike of some of their sounds is far more powerful and far more of a leader in our behavior than we suspect.

 

In gender differences and how they are developed, the differences from cultural influences are striking - you cannot miss them unless you are very dim.

 

It appears that in much of the world both men and women are enjoying a sort of blossoming of resonance within their gender and those in transitional genders are also being given more space to settle in. This seems to be happening in sink with the demise of many religious strongholds, particularly that of the Catholic Church.

 

It is heartening to watch many of the videos my young son watches - while they are certainly not perfect and the number of dead is in the trillions, a great number of them have Earth Wind Water and Fire in their themes,along with strong females and Eastern wisdom, Native American wisdom and contemplation. Sprit is constantly addressed as well as virtue in the widest sense.

 

While it is easy to be sentimental about the cartons I watched when I was a kid, these new ones (generally ) are a steep jump up from the ones I watched.

 

Also, nearly 50% (so it seems) of the kids I know take some martial art at least twice a week. This is excellent for all genders.

Sport Yoga (not actual yoga but sold under the name Yoga) is super popular in the teens and up and while not actually yoga proper, it can act as a bridge into real practice.

 

Having role models is always helpful, and the newest role models look pretty good and getting better.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Spotless

[HoldorFold]

@Bagua I'm not a fan of societal programming either. I always thought society was trying to neutralise the gender differences though, shows how a lot of it is to do with subjective perception.

Edited June 28, 2014 by HoldorFold

[Nungali]

It's the trend these days to assume that gender roles are contrived, invented, unjustly enforced, and almost completely bogus. Our culture basically unconsciously believes and teaches this to all of us, at least since the 1960s.

 

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think men do better when they have the masculine gender role as their ideal, and that men experience bad effects if they don't believe in masculinity, or if they think they are or should be feminine.

 

I see the SNAG model as a failure of this kind. It seemed, perhaps relevant for a time for some to redress an imbalance but for some it suppressed their masculinity.

 

Even the Samurai acknowledged both sides ; a (compared to todays standards) over the top masculinity, yet a concpt of a man that included the ability to fight with weapons and unarmed, but also the ability to make nice flower arrangement, compose a poem, have an appreciation of nature and make an artful cup of tea.

 

One can still be 'nice; and burn off testosterone with martial arts.

 

One thing I really disliked (and still do) was the new age hippy peace and love snag that I knew abused his partner and mother of his child at home... and how many that turned a blind eye to that and related to him through his outward personna.

 

 

 

Not saying that anyone's personal life choices are wrong. Maybe straying away from the idea of a gender role will actually bring about positive results (which are more akin to true masculinity, than the misunderstood gender role of it). Just saying that males do better when there are masculine role models they can look up to, and masculine wisdom they can apply to their own lives. Not knowing who you are, not knowing what you stand for, what you should strive for, how to live...how can these things be good at all?

 

No they are not and good point! I just posted about that in the feminism thread. And also back to my question ; what is the relevant male role model ?

 

I do agree that the gender roles can be bad if forced upon people...for instance, telling a boy he needs to man up and play football or something. Our society turns out false men, these days (you know the type, loud obnoxious fatass football watchers who have bikini babe posters in their man caves, etc).

 

True manhood is still there, but it isn't understood as true manhood...for instance, a jovial/care free/friendly/helping attitude, I view as being more truly masculine...than a father being dismissive and agitated by his young son and yelling at him to be more of a man.

 

In those I see Jupiter Vs Saturn - archetypes and models.

 

That type of father isn't a man at all...he can't even handle his own emotions, and doesn't even have love for his own kid. In my view, true masculinity is compassion itself...not what we see today in adult men.

 

Well said ! Also I would add; an ability to see that many of our old (and hence conditioned) male role models are defunct, and to take the bit by the teeth and forge ahead and find those new roles and expressions.

 

 

So basically...gender roles say something, but can we understand the whole truth of what they're saying after all of these years of having forgotten what a true man really is? It's not that manhood is lost...it's just that it's not clearly defined. Maybe it's even intentionally muddled.

 

To rule people it helps to make them powerless.