Adverse Effects of Contemplative Practices article

[GrandmasterP]

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/

 

Interesting article.

If someone with a mental health issue begins cultivating it could be that they become worse hence those medical disclaimers at the front of 'how to cultivate' books.

Accredited Mindfulness trainers here in the UK have something similar they give out and record as having given in the client's notes.

That way ones erse is covered if the client does go Tonto, blames the cultivation and calls up one of those "where there's blame there's a claim" lawyers and tries to sue the teacher.

IMO anyone who starts out from a reasonably stable place north of their neck aint gonna be any worse by cultivating.

 

What do you think?

Edited June 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Some of the people interested in this stuff are going to be fruitloops, or prone to it. Also if you can injure your body exercising wrongly, stands to reason cultivation can cause issues in some people, especially if done wrongly.

 

The moral of the story is, let's sort ourselves out.

[BaguaKicksAss]

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/

 

Interesting article.

If someone with a mental health issue begins cultivating it could be that they become worse hence those medical disclaimers at the front of 'how to cultivate' books.

Accredited Mindfulness trainers here in the UK have something similar they give out and record as having given in the client's notes.

That way ones erse is covered if the client does go Tonto, blames the cultivation and calls up one of those "where there's blame there's a claim" lawyers and tries to sue the teacher.

IMO anyone who starts out from a reasonably stable place north of their neck aint gonna be any worse by cultivating.

 

What do you think?

 

I've seen many without teachers, where their ego gets in the way, and they end up pretty unbalanced from it... So having a guide helps. But the teacher/guide must also be experienced enough to know the signs and help guide the person too...

Edited June 28, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[C T]

The Mahayana tradition already recognised this ages ago. Thats why, traditionally, it is said that mindfulness training alone serves only one half of the full purpose of cultivation.

 

Mindfulness is basically a wisdom approach. Whats missing in modern-day mindfulness training is that they have inadvertently have left out the other wing from this contemporary model, which is knowledge in the cultivation of compassion. Together they restore balance.

[Mark Foote]

From the article quoted by GrandmasterP:

 

Britton also questions what might be considered the mindfulness movement's limited scope. She explains that the Theravadin Buddhist tradition influences how a large portion of Americans practice meditation, but in it, mindfulness is "about vipassana, a specific type of insight … into the three characteristics of experience." These are also known as the three marks of existence: anicca, or impermanence; dukkha, or dissatisfaction; and anatta, or no-self.

 

For me, I accept the positive and substantive regardless of who's the teacher, and I look to happiness connected with well-being as my guide in practice; it's a lot like lighting a fire with a fire-stick every day, I guess.

 

Reflection on the impermanence of all conditioned things, the truths about suffering, the lack of any abiding self-- a long time, to feel the positive in this description of characteristics. Why not just sit.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Mark Foote

[silent thunder]

The Mahayana tradition already recognised this ages ago. Thats why, traditionally, it is said that mindfulness training alone serves only one half of the full purpose of cultivation.

 

Mindfulness is basically a wisdom approach. Whats missing in modern-day mindfulness training is that they have inadvertently have left out the other wing from this contemporary model, which is knowledge in the cultivation of compassion. Together they restore balance.

Wow this resonated for me.

Thanks!

 

*deep bow*

[Spotless]

Very few teachers have either the knowledge to virtually eliminate these problems nor the school structure to facilitate it.

 

Most new students are not screened for diet and a whole host of questions that will tell you where their practice is at and what they are trying to achieve and what they are working on etc.

 

Few teachers can spot a person with transmedium problems - (beings) - and even fewer have a remote clue as to how to handle one, and a very large percentage have these issues - particularly when one starts to raise ones energy.

 

Many teachers have all sorts of information on increasing the flow of energy but do not understand the idea of turning certain energies down after certain practices.

 

So, what often happens is a person already a bit on the frail side of self ownership raises their energy and may say something after a class like "god I feel like I have never felt in my life, I can feel my chakras wide open and everything feels and looks light and glowing ........................"

While this sounds pretty cool and this person will sell your teaching for you - this is what I see:

The being residing in the body is enjoying the higher vibration that the body in now experiencing - all well and good - but they are now out of class and the "house (their body) has all the doors and windows open" and its selling free drinks (high frequency) to anyone passing by because it's party time! This then can move from a normal person with a growing grip on life to a growing and disintegrating "house of roommates".

 

In another scenario, the person may be making huge strides and inertia is falling away, their clarity of likes and dislikes (judgement) is fading, mind seems to be stopping but intermittently or with alarming frequency and doubts of all sorts set in - quitting sets in - at the wrong time and at a precious time - and too few teachers have anything to say on this because either they do not know how to recognize it or their school does not have aids monitoring the students well - certainly most larger followings have so much ass kissing (politics) going on that you can't get past the hugs to find a teacher or aid, or nobody will talk about these things because of the shame and uncertainty that they feel.

 

Also - if you are doing everything "right", you are constantly breaking up patterns which means you are permanently the odd man In the room - no one likes a constantly changing person especially the "person" you are trying to get rid of. So here you are walking around with a part of you hating your practice but forever trying to "adopt it" without your knowledge so that it can co-opt it out from under you while at the same time your practice keeps breaking through the veneer of your false personality gaining a glimpse here and there and all the while you need to function in a world gone mad but that you still have attachment to certain issues (save the children) and so it goes with this odd duck thing - but in the background the glorious ness is becoming evident and regardless of how your friends and family may judge you, a magnetic center in you has ammassed to a critical no return level and you are going to see this through if it takes a hundred lifetimes.

 

All that said - the path is safe and nothing you can do will damage that that is you - it remains spotless.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Spotless

[GrandmasterP]

The Mahayana tradition already recognised this ages ago. Thats why, traditionally, it is said that mindfulness training alone serves only one half of the full purpose of cultivation.

 

Mindfulness is basically a wisdom approach. Whats missing in modern-day mindfulness training is that they have inadvertently have left out the other wing from this contemporary model, which is knowledge in the cultivation of compassion. Together they restore balance.

 

That is an excellent point and well made CT.

'Original' Mindfulness a la Kabat-Zin pathologizes meditation.

Kabat-Zin was based in and worked for a pain relief clinic at a large General Hospital.

Interestingly his exercises were yoga based and demanded a lot physically of participants.

The meditation was , of necessity; 'self-centred' with cultivators focusing on an end result generally pain relief and personal improvement.

Those of us working in Mindfulness from the 'Tao of Mindfulness' paradigm take a somewhat different approach.

The physical aspects are Baduanjin drawing on and from classical QiGong theory and praxis.

The meditative aspect takes a Soto-Zen approach of cultivating 'for its own sake' with intention , if intention there is; towards the well being of others.

An argument can, and has been; made that if a 'Tao of Mindfulness' cultivator is cultivating with intention that 'all sentient beings may become Mindful' then that is still an ego-centric praxis.

Maybe it is or might be, I don't know nor do I know how anyone could accurately diagnose that as being the case; but it could be.

Not to say that Kabat- Zin's ' Full catastrophe living' Mindfulness approach lacks compassion.

It has compassion but a directed perhaps 'therapeutic' compassion - from the Mindfulness teacher and towards the Mindfulness 'patient'.

The 'Tao of Mindfulness' approach is dynamically different insofar that the focus is 'from' the individual cultivator and 'towards' the Mindfulness of all sentient beings.

We cultivate for the sake of cultivation, hopefully; without self-seeking and 'ambitiously' that the ripple effect of cultivation might benefit others.

That's the 'best fit' scenario and, of course; there are those who cultivate 'Tao of Mindfulness' for their own benefit.

As a teacher one does notice that as students progress and develop in Tao of Mindfulness then any original 'selfishness' in approach tends to dissolve in and from the student.

The 'selfish' ones who don't change tend to be those who find the practice wanting and move on.

In all cases, people with mobility issues simply cannot cultivate Kabat-Zin's yoga-based method whereas even the bed bound can cultivate the 'Tao of Mindfulness' QiGong approach.

[C T]

The compassion you mentioned above, GMP, is only a very beginner approach in Mahayana. In Mahayana, its called outer compassion, and has to do with everyday understanding of what compassion is... do good, treat others as one wants to be treated, and all that. Most teachers of mindfulness are well aware of the importance of incorporating compassion into their courses, but are apprehensive they will lose students due to Western conditioning associated with the word 'compassion'. You see, many of these teachers are making a living out of facilitating mindfulness-based programs. No students means no income.

 

Sure, there are also many who are doing great work, charitable work -- in prisons, hospices, etc. conducting similar trainings. These are the ones who seem to have some conviction to integrate the conjoined principle of wisdom and compassion, both in their own lives and those whom they are assisting.

 

Buddhist meditation is not restrictive. Even dying people can practice... in fact, dying people should be practicing more.

 

Its not helpful to compare Qi Gong practices with Buddhist mind training. Both are good, but with completely different dynamics. When integrated, great results can be seen.

[mike 134]

If someone with a mental health issue begins cultivating it could be that they become worse

 

Its hard to say what causes what. Spiritual people are more likely to be mentally ill to begin with

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255894/Spiritual-people-likely-mentally-ill-think-life-meaning.html

 

Also, many people with mental illness are constantly on the lookout for opportunities to discontinue their meds. If somebody becomes convinced that practices will cure them, they might stop their meds right away. Of course it's not a surprise when these ppl relapse.

[GrandmasterP]

Its hard to say what causes what. Spiritual people are more likely to be mentally ill to begin with

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255894/Spiritual-people-likely-mentally-ill-think-life-meaning.html

 

Also, many people with mental illness are constantly on the lookout for opportunities to discontinue their meds. If somebody becomes convinced that practices will cure them, they might stop their meds right away. Of course it's not a surprise when these ppl relapse.

 

" The vast majority of the group ( they researched) were Christian."

 

No Taoists participated.

We're as sane as sane can be.

( comparatively)