HELP: Seeking further textual reference...

[nestentrie]

I really am exposing my inexperience here, but I'd like to ask the forum for some further information on an area of Taoism that I would like to know more about.

 

I've heard said that in Toaism there are 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues": Righteousness, Wisdom, Benevolence, Propriety, and Fidelity (I've also heard a different account that there are 8 virtues to be reckoned with). In the Tao Te Ching I can find mention of some of these. For instance with verse 38 (the beginning of the second part of the text):

 

38

(Those who) possessed in highest degree the attributes (of the
Tao) did not (seek) to show them, and therefore they possessed them
(in fullest measure). (Those who) possessed in a lower degree those
attributes (sought how) not to lose them, and therefore they did not
possess them (in fullest measure).

(Those who) possessed in the highest degree those attributes did
nothing (with a purpose), and had no need to do anything. (Those who)
possessed them in a lower degree were (always) doing, and had need to
be so doing.

(Those who) possessed the highest benevolence were (always seeking)
to carry it out, and had no need to be doing so. (Those who)
possessed the highest righteousness were (always seeking) to carry it
out, and had need to be so doing.

(Those who) possessed the highest (sense of) propriety were (always
seeking) to show it, and when men did not respond to it, they bared
the arm and marched up to them.

Thus it was that when the Tao was lost, its attributes appeared;
when its attributes were lost, benevolence appeared; when benevolence
was lost, righteousness appeared; and when righteousness was lost, the
proprieties appeared.

Now propriety is the attenuated form of leal-heartedness and good
faith, and is also the commencement of disorder; swift apprehension is
(only) a flower of the Tao, and is the beginning of stupidity.

Thus it is that the Great man abides by what is solid, and eschews
what is flimsy; dwells with the fruit and not with the flower. It is
thus that he puts away the one and makes choice of the other.

 

http://sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htm

 

I can also surmise that the lessons of Fidelity are strewn throughout the text with one particulary powerful example in verse 81 (where in the translation I link 'Fidelity' as a term is interchanged with 'sincerity'):

 

81

Sincere words are not fine; fine words are not sincere. Those
who are skilled (in the Tao) do not dispute (about it); the
disputatious are not skilled in it. Those who know (the Tao) are not
extensively learned; the extensively learned do not know it.

The sage does not accumulate (for himself). The more that he
expends for others, the more does he possess of his own; the more that
he gives to others, the more does he have himself.

With all the sharpness of the Way of Heaven, it injures not; with
all the doing in the way of the sage he does not strive.

 

http://sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htm

 

In my grappling with google, when I search for these terms in relation to Toaism I find various commentaries on the Tao Te Ching, people's personal musings on Taoism in general, but no other (as far as I can see) official canon. So my question is: 'Is there a classic text, or a school of Taoism that includes these things? And where are these virtues are enshrined, apart from in the Tao Te Ching?'

 

It's a topic I'm profoundly interested in so any help will be much appreciated. Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Have you looked at our(TTB) Tao Te Ching section below for Chapters 38 and 81....???

http://thetaobums.com/topic/18519-ttc-study-chapter-38-of-the-tao-teh-ching/

[nestentrie]

I'm not sure I had looked at that exact thread, but I have browsed through various threads in the chapter studies done on the forum.

 

It wasn't quite my question however. I'm interested to know if there is any canonical text that offers up anything on these particular virtues different to what the Tao Te Ching does.

 

Thanks for reminding me of the chapter studies though. I haven't yet made my way through them all. Perhaps it's a good time to revist them.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I really am exposing my inexperience here, but I'd like to ask the forum for some further information on an area of Taoism that I would like to know more about.

 

I've heard said that in Toaism there are 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues": Righteousness, Wisdom, Benevolence, Propriety, and Fidelity (I've also heard a different account that there are 8 virtues to be reckoned with). In the Tao Te Ching I can find mention of some of these. For instance with verse 38 (the beginning of the second part of the text):

 

[....]

 

In my grappling with google, when I search for these terms in relation to Toaism I find various commentaries on the Tao Te Ching, people's personal musings on Taoism in general, but no other (as far as I can see) official canon. So my question is: 'Is there a classic text, or a school of Taoism that includes these things? And where are these virtues are enshrined, apart from in the Tao Te Ching?'

 

It's a topic I'm profoundly interested in so any help will be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

What is meant by fidelity there is actually loyalty.

 

A more direct translation of Chapter 38 is Lin Yutangs:

 

 

The man of superior character is not (conscious of his) character.

Hence he has character.

The man of inferior character (is intent on) not losing character.

Hence he is devoid of character.

The man of superior character never acts,

Nor ever (does so) with an ulterior motive.

The man of inferior character acts,

And (does so) with an ulterior motive.

The man of superior kindness acts,

But (does so) without an ulterior motive.

The man of superior justice acts,

And (does so) with an ulterior motive.

(But when) the man of superior li acts and finds no response,

He rolls up his sleeves to force it on others.

Therefore:

After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity.

After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice.

After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) li [propriety, social customs].

Now li is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin].

And the beginning of chaos.

The prophets are the flowering of Tao

And the origin of folly.

Therefore the noble man dwells in the heavy (base),

And not in the thinning (end).

He dwells in the fruit,

And not in the flowering (expression).

Therefore he rejects the one and accepts the other.

 

 

I can only speculate as to why Lin Yutang chose not to translate "Now li [social customs] is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin]." Perhaps it was too against social customs of the day....

 

 

All the virtues are in Dao.

 

Righteousness, wisdom, benevolence, propriety, fidelity, humility, strength, creativity, love, determination, gratitude, balance and harmony, ......

 

Maybe the source was just repeating another "authoritative" scholarly source which figured "well they chose these to compare everything, so that must be the "Cardinal Virtues."

 

It's not so much like other traditions. You don't need to carry a grocery list .

[dawei]

Not sure if this helps..

 

Lin:

 

講明五倫八德 - To clarify the Five Relationships and the Eight Virtues

 

Five Bonds of Human Relationships - between sovereign and minister, parents and children, husband and wife, between siblings, and between friends

Eight Cardinal Virtues - filial piety, brotherly love, loyalty, truthfulness, courtesy, righteousness, integrity, and a sense of shame

 

 

恪遵四維綱常之古禮 - To follow the ancient practice of the Four Ethics, the Mainstays, and the Constant Virtues

 

The Four Ethical Principles - courtesy, righteousness, integrity, a sense of shame

The Three Mainstays of Social Order - between sovereign and minister, parents and children, husband and wife

The Five Constant Virtues - benevolence, righteousness, courtesy, wisdom, and truthfulness

[ChiDragon]

 

I really am exposing my inexperience here, but I'd like to ask the forum for some further information on an area of Taoism that I would like to know more about.

 

I've heard said that in Toaism there are 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues": Righteousness, Wisdom, Benevolence, Propriety, and Fidelity (I've also heard a different account that there are 8 virtues to be reckoned with). In the Tao Te Ching I can find mention of some of these. For instance with verse 38 (the beginning of the second part of the text):

It's a topic I'm profoundly interested in so any help will be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

The 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues" are, actually, the Confucian philosophy rather than the philosophy in the Tao Te Ching. The distinctive difference is morality(Confucian) and virtue(Taoism). The Chinese term 道德(Tao Te) is the same for both philosophies. One who study Taoism must know the distinctive difference in meaning between the two, before mix them up, to avoid confusion.

Edited June 30, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

 

The 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues" are, actually, the Confucian philosophy rather than the philosophy in the Tao Te Ching. The distinctive difference is morality(Confucian) and virtue(Taoism).

 

Only partly correct... their origin may be Confucian but in the spirit of "Three are One" (Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism), Taoist religions took on these ideals and blended them together.

[flowing hands]

Actually a deep understanding of Daoism means:

 

No rules

No ethics

No virtues

 

The Dao has none of these all are invented by humans. In seeking the Dao one first begins to alleviate ones ideas about these things until one is completely open (like the Dao) It is only simple rules or mores that are required for humans likewise other life. The more rules and regulations the more the Dao is lost.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, there were no rules but good intentions. Indeed, each philosophy was initiated with a good intention. These intentions eventually will meet at one point to share and emerge their commonalities.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Not sure if this helps..

 

Lin:

 

Lin?

[dawei]

Lin?

 

That explanation was by Derek Lin.

[nestentrie]

 

The 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues" are, actually, the Confucian philosophy rather than the philosophy in the Tao Te Ching. The distinctive difference is morality(Confucian) and virtue(Taoism). The Chinese term 道德(Tao Te) is the same for both philosophies. One who study Taoism must know the distinctive difference in meaning between the two, before mix them up, to avoid confusion.

 

 

Not sure if this helps..

 

Lin:

 

講明五倫八德 - To clarify the Five Relationships and the Eight Virtues

 

Five Bonds of Human Relationships - between sovereign and minister, parents and children, husband and wife, between siblings, and between friends

Eight Cardinal Virtues - filial piety, brotherly love, loyalty, truthfulness, courtesy, righteousness, integrity, and a sense of shame

 

 

恪遵四維綱常之古禮 - To follow the ancient practice of the Four Ethics, the Mainstays, and the Constant Virtues

 

The Four Ethical Principles - courtesy, righteousness, integrity, a sense of shame

The Three Mainstays of Social Order - between sovereign and minister, parents and children, husband and wife

The Five Constant Virtues - benevolence, righteousness, courtesy, wisdom, and truthfulness

 

Yes, that does help. Thanks. I suppose somewhere in my memory I've confused things. Is there a specific text that enshrines this? I will try to google with these refined terms, but my google skills are woeful so any pointers would be welcome.

 

 

Actually a deep understanding of Daoism means:

 

No rules

No ethics

No virtues

 

The Dao has none of these all are invented by humans. In seeking the Dao one first begins to alleviate ones ideas about these things until one is completely open (like the Dao) It is only simple rules or mores that are required for humans likewise other life. The more rules and regulations the more the Dao is lost.

 

This is true. IMHO, to understand verse 38 is to understand this. It's not so much that i'm looking for rules and stipulations or some hard line to follow: I'm looking for where simplicity opens 'rules' up and offers clarity. I'm just looking for suggestions.

 

It follows on from work I've been conducting for myself. For some time now i've been reflecting on the Chuang Tzu Chapter 'The Old Fisherman'. In it there are mentioned 8 personal 'defects' a person can be inflicted with and 4 so called 'great evils'. One must gaurd against the defects so as to let no course for the great evils to enter one's character/behaviour. I've been trying to see if there are corresponding virtues and if they are as comprehensive as the defects seem to be in summing up a person and their attitudes toward activity and ethics.

 

My system is a little hodgepodge so far, but I've come a long way. What I think I have is a system that accounts for the acquisition of knowledge (or how knowledge frames an ethical viewpoint), the forwarding of belief (again in terms of an ethical viewpoint), and how people accept and agree with things. At their most basic they are the maxims of "I do or I don't", "I can or I can't", "I will or I won't", and "I should or I shouldn't" (all respective to knowledge, belief, acceptance, and agreement).

 

There are further words and terms in the system, but what opened my eye was the coming across the notions of Benevolence, Righteousness, WIsdom, and Propriety. They fit in line with my thinking perfectly. It seemed as if these terms were just there waiting for me.

 

So to re-estabalish the OP, I'd like to find something I can read to aid my thinking and work.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[...]

 

It follows on from work I've been conducting for myself. For some time now i've been reflecting on the Chuang Tzu Chapter 'The Old Fisherman'. In it there are mentioned 8 personal 'defects' a person can be inflicted with and 4 so called 'great evils'. One must gaurd against the defects so as to let no course for the great evils to enter one's character/behaviour. I've been trying to see if there are corresponding virtues and if they are as comprehensive as the defects seem to be in summing up a person and their attitudes toward activity and ethics.

 

Perhaps my favourite chapter of the Chaung Tzu. True, there are lists. I should clarify that earlier I mean that there isn't one small list, though there are many lists for various different purposes and circumstances.

 

[....]

 

There are further words and terms in the system, but what opened my eye was the coming across the notions of Benevolence, Righteousness, WIsdom, and Propriety. They fit in line with my thinking perfectly. It seemed as if these terms were just there waiting for me.

 

So to re-estabalish the OP, I'd like to find something I can read to aid my thinking and work.

 

You might be best to start with Confucius' "The First Ten Books" for these virtues. Doing so would not be un-Taoist whatsoever if we are to take anything from the cultural reality of China.

[nestentrie]

Perhaps my favourite chapter of the Chaung Tzu. True, there are lists. I should clarify that earlier I mean that there isn't one small list, though there are many lists for various different purposes and circumstances.

 

 

You might be best to start with Confucius' "The First Ten Books" for these virtues. Doing so would not be un-Taoist whatsoever if we are to take anything from the cultural reality of China.

 

Yeah I was already getting the impression that there wasn't just one fixed list. This thread has pushed that point further.

 

I will admit that so far in my studies I have steered clear of Confucius, and that possibly I've been a little ignorant in that regard. However I feel I can say that I don't go out of my way to reject good advice and helpful pointers. Confucius has been calling me for a while now, with my interest in that system steadily growing. Perhaps it's just what I've been looking for and perhaps now is the time to pursue it.

 

Thanks for the tip. I will get googling as soon as I can.

[Taoist Texts]

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/hbphiloterms-u.html

 

Page Contents Terms Broadly Shared by
Confucianism & Daoism Dào 道 = Way
Dé 德 = Virtue, Power Lǐ 理 = Principle
Yīnyáng 阴阳 = Yīn & Yáng
Terms Particularly Stressed
by Confucianism Yì 义 = Righteousness
Rén 仁 = Benevolence
Lǐ 礼 = Ritual
Zhì 智 = Wisdom
Xìn 信 = Sincerity Chǐ 耻 = Sense of Shame
Lián 廉 = Frugality
Shù 恕 = Empathy
Xiào 孝 = Filial Piety
Xù 序 = Precedence
Zhōng 忠 = Loyalty

[ChiDragon]

Please make the following corrections.
Lǐ 礼 = Ritual Etiquette(禮儀, 禮節)
Xìn 信 = Sincerity Trustworthy

Edited July 2, 2014 by ChiDragon

[nestentrie]

 

The 5 so called "Cardinal Virtues" are, actually, the Confucian philosophy rather than the philosophy in the Tao Te Ching. The distinctive difference is morality(Confucian) and virtue(Taoism). The Chinese term 道德(Tao Te) is the same for both philosophies. One who study Taoism must know the distinctive difference in meaning between the two, before mix them up, to avoid confusion.

 

 

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/hbphiloterms-u.html

 

Page Contents Terms Broadly Shared by

Confucianism & Daoism

Dào 道 = Way

Dé 德 = Virtue, Power Lǐ 理 = Principle

Yīnyáng 阴阳 = Yīn & Yáng

Terms Particularly Stressed

by Confucianism Yì 义 = Righteousness

Rén 仁 = Benevolence

Lǐ 礼 = Ritual

Zhì 智 = Wisdom

Xìn 信 = Sincerity Chǐ 耻 = Sense of Shame

Lián 廉 = Frugality

Shù 恕 = Empathy

Xiào 孝 = Filial Piety

Xù 序 = Precedence

Zhōng 忠 = Loyalty

 

 

Yes, I can now see that now, ChiDragon. Thank you both for this. It's a very useful page and has cleared up (some) confusion. I've read over the entire page and it seems clear that I really should be looking into Confucianism.

[Taoist Texts]

陽貨:

子張問仁於孔子。孔子曰：「能行五者於天下，為仁矣。」請問之。曰：「恭、寬、信、敏、惠。恭則不侮，寬則得眾，信則人任焉，敏則有功，惠則足以使人。」 Yang Huo:

Zi Zhang asked Confucius about perfect virtue. Confucius said, "To be able to practice five things everywhere under heaven constitutes perfect virtue." He begged to ask what they were, and was told, "Gravity, generosity of soul, sincerity, earnestness, and kindness. If you are grave, you will not be treated with disrespect. If you are generous, you will win all. If you are sincere, people will repose trust in you. If you are earnest, you will accomplish much. If you are kind, this will enable you to employ the services of others."

 

http://ctext.org/analects/yang-huo?searchu=%20sit%20&searchmode=showall#result

[ChiDragon]

陽貨(Yang Huo):

子張問仁於孔子。孔子曰：「能行五者於天下，為仁矣。」請問之。曰：「恭、寬、信、敏、惠。恭則不侮，寬則得眾，信則人任焉，敏則有功，惠則足以使人。」

Zi Zhang asked Confucius about benevolence. Confucius said, "To be able to practice five things in the world(under heaven), it has to be benevolence." It was politely asked and was told, "courtesy, tolerance, trustworthy, agile, and kindness. Showing courtesy will never regret, tolerance will win the respect of others, trustworthy will gain the trust of others, agile will be successful, showing kindness will enable you to employ the services of others(with loyalty)."

Edited July 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for taking a closer look at the text Chi Dragon. There were some major errors there, and it brought me to take a closer look as well. I think though, for an English translation with all the equivocal/equivalent meanings of words, the virtues would be best described:

 

恭、Courtesy

寬、Generosity

信、Sincerity

敏、Quick (in action and understanding)

惠 Kindness

 

恭則不侮，寬則得眾，信則人任焉，敏則有功，惠則足以使人

"Courtesy results in not being ridiculed or disgraced, generosity results in having many friends (obtaining many people), sincerity results in people being trustworthy towards you (people-dutiful-likewise, or perhaps sincerity-results-people-(obtaining) official positions-thereby), being quick (in action and understanding) results in achieving success, kindness results in people being willing to help and serve you."

 

 

A general note that these are not all the same as the similar virtues mentioned in chapter 38 of the Dao De Jing.

 

I see now that (the terebess publication of the translation by) Lin Yutang also omitted/changed the first line of this stanza in ch. 38:

 

故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首

[When Dao is lost, then follows De]

After Tao is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) humanity.
After humanity is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) justice.
After justice is lost, then (arises the doctrine of) li [propriety, social customs].
Now li is the thinning out of loyalty [zhong] and honesty of heart [xin].
And the beginning of chaos.

 

I'm looking at this again and wondering if maybe the grammar of the text (which tended to be very sparse to avoid repeating phrases) was meant to read exactly as it appears:

 

 

 

故失道而後德，失德而後仁，失仁而後義，失義而後禮. 夫禮者，忠信之薄，而亂之首

"When Dao is lost then follows De (in being lost)

When De is lost then follows benevolence (in being lost)

When humanity is lost, then follows justice (in being lost)

When justice is lost, then follows social customs and propriety (in being lost)

Regarding propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos"

 

This does seem to fit a lot of the grammatical style, and makes lot's of sense as well:

 

When Dao is lost, virtue is then also lost

When virtue is lost, benevolence is then also lost

When benevolence is lost, justice is then also lost

When justice is lost, propriety and social customs are then also lost

So in regards to propriety, when loyalty and sincerity are weak, this is the beginning of chaos

 

This would be rather opposite to the way it has been understood, translated, and thereby commented on.

 

Seems every chapter I look closer at, the more I see how much is left out or misunderstood, so this wouldn't be a huge surprise to me anymore.

 

For it to be translated in this (different) way would be well aligned with The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor which does place great value on all of these virtues (edit: though more in the overall meaning rather than in lists).

 

Of course, the central message is still there - hold to Dao and things will either stay or become aligned.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

HE.....

寬(容): tolerance; tolerable

Tolerance is able to forgive.
Generosity is able to give

Why did you choose "Generosity" for 寬.....???

Edited July 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The way the term is being used, it means loose (wide, spacious), which can also mean tolerant, or liberal. "Be loose with people" is the message of the phrase. When you are loose with people: when they transgress, you forgive; when they are in want, your fist is not tight.

 

To say someone is "tolerant" does not convey the full meaning, in English.

 

a compound character is 寬容 "spaciousness allowed" which means both tolerant and charitable.

 

Another compound:

 

寬(spacious)宏(wide)大(great)量(capacity)

 

寬宏大量

Broad-minded, liberal: generous

 

(compound characters from http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/)

Edited July 8, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[nestentrie]

Thanks for the discussion on this, ChiDragon and Harmonious Emptiness. I have a lot of reading and learning to do. I've begun reading the Analects and now it seems there's another text(s) to look at (The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor). Though, it so far seems that I may have to buy this latter one.

[Horus]

Well there are classics (more philosophical allegory) and then there are manuals (the lines may be blurred).

 

So, the classics tend to be a different approach to absorb them.

 

If you want functional understanding of the "cardinal virtues" you can take a look at Jerry Alan Johnson's texts (Medical Qigong + Neigong & Weigong), or Mantak Chia's (Fusion 1)- or other qigong/neigong "manuals".

 

Virtue (De) is the primary basis for higher merging with wuji and tao.

 

One may cultivate all they want but the doors of tao will be closed to those lacking virtue.

 

Different schools work with different virtues, but either way it is best to enter a working relationship with the yin organs (especially) and their elemental attributes and their relationship with the 5 agents (spirits) that correlate therein (which is the inner seat of "cardinal virtue".

 

Classics tend to allude - manuals tend to instruct - individuals must embrace both and allow for the wisdom to bubble up within, thus forming their own intrinsic oneness with it all.

[ChiDragon]

寬(spacious)宏(wide)大(great)量(capacity)

 

寬宏大量

Broad-minded, liberal: generous

Compound character meaning....

寬宏: widely encompass;
大量: great amount

 

寬宏大量: encompass with great tolerance

If you are insisting to use the word "generous", then, you are generous in your tolerance to forgive someone.