Death, Dying and Next---- Thoughts & Speculations

[thelerner]

This subject was edging into another topic and I thought it deserved its own thread.

 

What do you think about the afterlife? Heaven, hell, reincarnation.. combination.. or nothing. Do we have control? Do we have any proof? Do we have.. hope?

 

 

Personally, I don't think we can ever be truly sure of what the truth is. Proofwise, its pretty murky, heaven has its proofs, though I find proofs in literature of reincarnation more persuasive. Especially cases of young children remembering past events. I think such interviews are beyond

 

being called away will finish later.

 

 

[KenBrace]

According to what is taught in Mo Pai the afterlife can be experienced first hand in the level one meditation so I intend to find out if that's true or not.

Edited July 1, 2014 by KenBrace

[nestentrie]

I believe in reincanation. I believe firmly that I know of my last two incarnations. But with the third there is historical discrepancy: recorded facts don't match with the chronology (my 3rd past life overlaps with my second according to the records). So I guess this leaves me somewhere in the realm of unacceptability.

 

I'm not really inclined to argue with the recorded facts either. My need for vindication is not that strong.

 

So what I do take from it? As the OP asks: what do I think of the afterlife? I think we go from hardiness (and heaviness) to almost pure shallow. Earth and Water are separated with Metal freed up. Our mind is splayed out and covers vast expanse of not only space but time, and we see through soul undindered: where mind is free to view and consider.

 

It would seem with this viewing and this considering that we could view a million of our past lives (and maybe a million into the future). So Hell? It's possible. Heaven? It is what it is. When is it is the question that persists though (and where?). Death is the everywhen and the everywhere: the Dreamtime and Tao. Though I don't precisely know why, we nevertheless can't keep it. Keeping involves Whatness, as well as the Whereness and When-ness. Tao is Tao. Tao isn't me or a million mes. It isn't twoness. So the What demands a separate Where, something When is all to eager to accomodate.

 

But control? Dunno really. I know that I've had varied personality across lives, but it feels gripping to admit and proclaim that I've always had the same character. At least, the same propensity. Control is as good as our clinging. Life is desire and I don't think afterlife really means the absence of life.

 

...

 

WHEN the pine tosses its cones

To the song of its waterfall tones,

Who speeds to the woodland walks?

To birds and trees who talks?

Cæsar of his leafy Rome,

There the poet is at home.

He goes to the river-side,—

Not hook nor line hath he;

He stands in the meadows wide,—

Nor gun nor scythe to see.

Sure some god his eye enchants:

What he knows nobody wants.

In the wood he travels glad,

Without better fortune had,

Melancholy without bad.

Knowledge this man prizes best

Seems fantastic to the rest:

Pondering shadows, colors, clouds,

Grass-buds and caterpillar-shrouds,

Boughs on which the wild bees settle,

Tints that spot the violet’s petal,

Why Nature loves the number five,

And why the star-form she repeats:

Lover of all things alive,

Wonderer at all he meets,

Wonderer chiefly at himself,

Who can tell him what he is?

Or how meet in human elf

Coming and past eternities?

Edited July 1, 2014 by nestentrie

[BaguaKicksAss]

Proofs of heaven, huh?

 

There's a lot of wandering deads still here, who think they are still alive. It is unfortunate.

 

I think we reincarnate, and I've had some past experiences which would lead me to beleive that I have at least .

[Unseen_Abilities]

I've come to believe in reincarnation, but I do not know about Heaven & Hell (What about Valhalla? or the Underworld, ruled by yours truly ) right now. Many times already I have met people and had a distinct sense of knowing them from another time and place, I've come to believe in reincarnation.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Unseen_Abilities

[Silent Answers]

I'll say this definitively as it's my belief but it doesn't have to be yours

 

When our spirit leaves these bodies, we rejoin a sort of spirit ocean... This is where uncultivated people gradually blend back into oneness and get wiped clean. Sort of like murky water settling so that clear water rises to the top and the sludge ends up on the bottom.

 

Cultivated people, maintain their form and experiences to an extent. The more you cultivate, the more you can hold yourself together outside of the physical realm. In cases of people that have overlapping past lives, it could be that you merged with that experience from "somebody else" in the spirit ocean.

 

Those who reach the highest levels of spiritual development fully maintain their form outside the physical world and rise through the "spirit ocean" (like a bubble) to higher realms with new rules. If you manage to get to this point before you're ready, you'll be like a mosquito in a tornado.

[GrandmasterP]

We'll all know for sure eventually.

Coming at it from the more optimistic ( spiritualist) end of the spectrum.

The old time Spiritualist motto was...

" There is no death. There are no dead."

We're all of us eternal spirits temporarily occupying our current bodies.

This side of life is like the tip of an iceberg, far less than the whole thing.

It just seems to be the 'whole thing' to some folks. They're wrong.

Everybody goes across to the other side of life when they leave the body.

Some get a bit 'stuck' here hence some types of 'ghosts' but, in due course everyone gets across one way or another.

There's chance, time and opportunity there to reflect on lessons learnt and distance travelled last time around.

Those who choose to can reincarnate if there's more to be learnt.

Those who choose not to reincarnate don't.

Some like to stick around 'over there' and help friends and loved ones still on this side of life.

Once each individual's loved ones are all across on the other side of life that's when you tend to get an exodus of folks reincarnating.

Everybody likes a change eventually.

We call the other side the ' Summerland' but labels mean nothing.

Others call it 'Heaven' or 'Valhalla' or 'Western Paradise' or whatever they're used to calling it.

Thing is whatever they did imagine it to be like on the other side of life.

It's far better because the possibilities aren't limited by limited human inderstanding nor constrained by verbal based language to describe them.

"Numinous-Transcendent" is as close I can get, and that's nowhere near close enough.

There's no such places as 'Hell' nor "Purgatory" nor " Bardo-as-purgatorial" or similar.

All that BS is an invention of 'woo for money' paid priests and religious professionals who have a vested interest in keeping the punters fearful in order to maintain their own cushy sinecures.

Hope that helps.

Edited July 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[joeblast]

According to what is taught in Mo Pai the afterlife can be experienced first hand in the level one meditation so I intend to find out if that's true or not.

that experience was what convinced me 100% I really am not my body. time and space pretty much dont exist in that state. its a bit distracting when movement comes from stillness, but you get used to handling it appropriately after a few occurrences.

[GrandmasterP]

Cultivation 101.

"Is-ness"

Which is...

Being in and relishing the eternal 'now'.

That's where the infinite 'is'.

The past has gone and the future's fictional.

All there is 'is' now.

It's pretty easy to be in the 'now'.

Cos we're already here.

Just sit. Follow your breath and bring wayward thoughts to settle by returning to your breathing when those thoughts try to entice you away.

MoPai's probably as good a cultivation as any but do it 'now'.

And all good wishes for every success.

Edited July 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[KenBrace]

that experience was what convinced me 100% I really am not my body. time and space pretty much dont exist in that state. its a bit distracting when movement comes from stillness, but you get used to handling it appropriately after a few occurrences.

There's no way you've experienced the borderline state.

[C T]

Cultivation 101.

"Is-ness"

Which is...

Being in and relishing the eternal 'now'.

That's where the infinite 'is'.

The past has gone and the future's fictional.

All there is 'is' now.

It's pretty easy to be in the 'now'.

Cos we're already here.

Just sit. Follow your breath and bring wayward thoughts to settle by returning to your breathing when those thoughts try to entice you away.

MoPai's probably as good a cultivation as any but do it 'now'.

And all good wishes for every success.

Well, GMP, that which you have said above is almost exactly what 'bardo' means.

 

Of course bardos exist. Bardo does not mean what you think it means. What it basically refers to are 'intermediate states'.

 

Eg, From the time you become aware of a thirst to the time you quench that thirst, that is a 'bardo'. From the time a craving arises to the time that craving is satiated, that is a 'bardo'. Bardo does not mean a place for departed souls. Its not even a place as such. It points to transitional phases, which indicates that all component things are subject to change at anytime.

 

When a person comes to rest in the nowness of now, then he or she is resting in the intermediate state between past and future. In truth, there are no words that can come close to describing that stateless state of resting because once its realised, one sees only one perfect continuum, flowing from nowhere and ending nowhere. This realisation brings an end to the bardo of becoming. Karmas are extinguished with the cessation of this bardo.

[GrandmasterP]

Fair comment CT I bow to your knowledge.

I've take the 'bardo as purgatory' line there.

Tibetan Book of the Dead...

"In the final stage, if the soul has not attained liberation, it encounters seven great angry light beings. If the soul realizes these lights stem from the soul's own mind and self, it will be liberated. If not, it will descend to the third bardo."

If summerland ( insert name of choice) is a bardo in the sense you describe bardo then that's cool.

I'll edit the original now.

 

Edited July 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[C T]

Fair comment CT I bow to your knowledge.

I've take the 'bardo as purgatory' line there.

If summerland ( insert name of choice) is a bardo in the sense you describe bardo then that's cool.

I'll edit the original now.

 

The bardo of becoming is like purgatory. haha... you're quite right there!

[Protector]

There is no afterlife or anything after death

So, yeah... we are machines that can get broken

[KenBrace]

There is no afterlife or anything after death

So, yeah... we are machines that can get broken

 

What makes you think that?

[joeblast]

There's no way you've experienced the borderline state.

Look Ken, I know 18-year-old wisdom is SUPER STRONG and solid and has real depth and all, but please, just stop saying utterly fkn stupid things.

[KenBrace]

Look Ken, I know 18-year-old wisdom is SUPER STRONG and solid and has real depth and all, but please, just stop saying utterly fkn stupid things.

 

LOL

 

How old are you joeblast?

[joeblast]

got 20 years on ya, pal.

[dawei]

There's no way you've experienced the borderline state.

 

Why do you think that?

 

How can you judge another's experience of states.

 

It is one thing to just maybe be presumptuous in a comment but it may be a deeper rift between you guys which should not seen but a taunting comment.

 

Why not ask him to explain the experience more instead of claiming "there's no way..."

[joeblast]

dawei, he hasnt but skimmed any of my posts anyway, I've already explained these things to him, if he'd bothered to read them slowly enough so that comprehension could have take place that'd be one thing, but since his position as MPG lackey dictates that all MPG-isms must be promulgated regardless of their watered down status, he was compelled to do so.

[BaguaKicksAss]

dawei, he hasnt but skimmed any of my posts anyway, I've already explained these things to him, if he'd bothered to read them slowly enough so that comprehension could have take place that'd be one thing, but since his position as MPG lackey dictates that all MPG-isms must be promulgated regardless of their watered down status, he was compelled to do so.

 

If you post your responses to him in a nice way out of compassion and caring (you did once that was cool) it is likely he might pay more attention to them. I have seen most of your posts to him (as you follow him around) as pretty degrading. Not saying he doesn't do that to, but not nearly as many times.

 

Edit to add: as if "read them slowly enough isn't just another derogatory statement....

Edited July 1, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[joeblast]

cordiality was extended so long as there was even a modicum of reciprocation. in the real world, children get shown their place much more quickly and this sort of thing isnt tolerated from snot nosed brats that think they know a few things. I was cordial quite a few times and put forth some effort to explain why some of his views were erroneous and it was met with derisive disrespect. twice after that I extended respectful words, twice more met with same, so I am rather disinclined to put in the additional effort to make sure plainspeak can withstand being placed upon eggshells.

 

spreading misinformation and watered down teachings is considered heresy in some circles.

[Protector]

What makes you think that?

 

Human body is a very funny thing that tricks us into thinking we're alive

The cells in our whole bodies get renewed constantly and we loose our memory

As we walk around, our old bodies get turned to dust and we forget unimportant memories, like, what we ate a month ago

After a while, our cells develop faults and we create inferior copies of ourselves, organs fail and we develop diseases like cancer. This process is called old age.

Billions of years ago we began our lives as single cell organisms. We were passive and just absorbed minerals that floated by us. The cells multiplied many many times and their code began to change. It was very random and some cells developed an ability to move. The movement was random but after few changes the cells developed an ability to seek out food by actively moving to wards specific locations. The need to move and eat other organisms began the need for a development of complicated nervous systems.

From being single cell organisms we moved onto being multicellular organisms. We grew and we developed a need for a brain because we wanted to eat meat. There are many living things that live and eat without having a brain and some of them live for centuries or more. They mostly live in the ocean in the coral forests and such places. We live on land and our need for food and our advanced brains led to a need for cooperation, and so, we became social.

From a single cell to a full human, not much space for a heaven there. In our minds we created new worlds and the world we think we live in, we can experience only through our brains. We don't even get the full picture from our senses alone, when we look at something, the brain has to translate what we're looking at and fill in the gaps in things that don't make sense. If our brains get destroyed then it's game over. Though, our minds change and reshape the brain so we're never the same as we were before. We think we are still the same person but to be the person we are today, the person from yesterday has to die. So, it's kinda like a perpetual state of rebirth we're living in that has to stop eventually.

When it stops, there will be nothing. We are like software, if the hardware doesn't work then there's just nothing software can do since it lives inside it.

Soooooooooooooooooooo yeppppppppppppppppppppppp

[Apech]

--- Moderator Message ---

 

This is a discussion about the death and the afterlife please don't derail it into personal disputes. Forget about it , move on, think ...we are all going to die someday, we don't know when or where or how. So is it worth bickering? No it's not.

 

--- Mod Message ends ---

[KenBrace]

Why do you think that?

 

How can you judge another's experience of states.

 

It is one thing to just maybe be presumptuous in a comment but it may be a deeper rift between you guys which should not seen but a taunting comment.

 

Why not ask him to explain the experience more instead of claiming "there's no way..."

 

(edited due to Apech's post)

Edited July 1, 2014 by KenBrace