Why Does Tai Ji Starts with Slow Motion?

[ChiDragon]

Steve, thanks, what you are saying is all true at the beginning level. However, I am talking in advance level where the coordination in breathing and movement and vice versa is very significant.

I think we can leave Wu Wei out of this one. If you want to follow the principle of Wu Wei, then you probably don't want to practice any martial arts at all. It is because you have already interfered the development of your body.

The goal for practicing Tai Ji is to change the breathing habit like "chi sink to the dan tian". Hereafter, one will breathe this way, constantly, as a normal habit. Therefore, it is not by forcing oneself to breathe in any other way but natural as it is now.

Edited July 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Ish]

Steve, thanks, what you are saying is all true at the beginning level. However, I am talking in advance level where the coordination in breathing and movement and vice versa is very significant.

 

 

 

In my opinion, coordinating breathing with movement is the basic level, there's no need for this when you are capable with chi flow.

[ChiDragon]

In my opinion, coordinating breathing with movement is the basic level, there's no need for this when you are capable with chi flow.

 

Yes, coordinating breathing with movement is the basic level but it's not an easy thing for students with a breathing problem. Unfortunately, some student always have problem not knowing when to inhale or exhale first with the initial move.

 

At higher level, the goal in coordinating breathing with movement is to sink chi deep into the LDT. Somehow, many people need lots of practice to get there....!!!

 

 

Edited July 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Steve, thanks, what you are saying is all true at the beginning level. However, I am talking in advance level where the coordination in breathing and movement and vice versa is very significant.

 

I think we can leave Wu Wei out of this one. If you want to follow the principle of Wu Wei, then you probably don't want to practice any martial arts at all. It is because you have interfered the development of your body.

 

The goal for practicing Tai Ji is to change the breathing habit like "chi sink to the dan tian". Hereafter, one will breathe this way, constantly, as a normal habit. Therefore, it is not by forcing oneself to breathe in any other way but natural as it is now.

 

 

I agree with Ish - coordinating breath with movement is fairly basic.

What I was referring to are more advanced practices like integrating the Yi and Qi.

At that point, the breath is simply a natural extension of the movement and vice versa.

The intent is on other things, the breath takes care of itself.

This is where wu wei comes into play. You can reduce wu wei to saying just don't do anything but that is not accurate.

Wu wei figures very prominently in taijiquan training and application.

I know that your interpretation, from your reading, of qi chen dan tian relates solely to breathing but that is simply because you've not had the benefit of more advanced instruction.

You tend to reduce everything to breathing.

While important, there is a lot more going on in taijiquan practice than the breath.

[ChiDragon]

You tend to reduce everything to breathing.

While important, there is a lot more going on in taijiquan practice than the breath.

 

 

Yes, I agree. If the breathing is less important than a lot more thing, then the other things are not more important than abdominal breathing. What I am really saying, here, is that breathing and movement are equally important. Tai ji will not be effective if one is not coordinated with the another.

Edited July 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

We move slowly in taiji practice to be able to do following things (imho) -

 

1. ensure that movement is happening as a whole body movement (instead of limbs or torso moving separately from each other). This ensures that every movement that occurs, does with complete body generating momentum (p=mv) -- if only part of the body is moving, that reduces the "m" (Mass) in play, thereby reducing momentum, thereby reducing the force that can be generated when acted upon another object/body
2. slow movement helps in relaxing and becoming aware of where we hold physical tension, thereby preventing us from getting to step 1 (see above)
3. slow movement becomes meditative, helping us understand where we hold mental tension, thereby inducing physical tension, thereby preventing step 1 from happening
4. slow movement induces relaxation, which increases our ability to sense qi flow, thereby making us aware of where there is excess/less of qi flow in the body,
5. slow movement, after step 4, will allow us to balance qi flow through out the body, thereby creating one unified structure which then helps towards step 1
6. slow movement, after step 5, will help us condense the qi into the bone marrow, thereby generating Jin, which can be released without excessive physical movement, thereby refining and strengthening what is outlined in step 1.
7. somewhere between step 1 and step 6, the "Breathing" equation gets dropped, because one must be able to express power (fa jin) whether he/she is breathing in or out. As a corollary thereof, the speed of inhalation or exhalation will become moot as well.

Edited July 8, 2014 by dwai

[doc benway]

Tai ji will not be effective if one is not coordinated with the another.

 

I disagree - one skilled in taijiquan can be very effective even while holding her breath.

The coordination of breath and movement certainly has great benefits both in training and application but if you've ever practiced competitive pushing hands or tried to use taiji applications in sparring or a fight, sometimes you don't have the luxury of breathing when and how you would like and you make it work anyway.

[CloudHands]

The Daoist way is simply to practice Wu Wei.

[CloudHands]

OK that said, what difference do you make between breath in and out in tai chi ? Wait a minute, maybe it's better for me to discover it while I practice..

[Ya Mu]

Some very good answers. Gotta love the consistency of CD type question posting.

 

So you guys may or may not appreciate this story. I will do my best to paraphrase an article that appeared in one of the Tai Jee magazines several years ago:

The REAL Reason Tai Chi is Performed Slowly

Turns out that once upon a time all Tai Chi was practiced swiftly. The "grand" master injured himself. When he recouped enough to start back practicing, he could only do the forms slowly as it hurt him to do them very fast. Everyone thought that the "grand" was doing something they didn't know about so they copied him. And now it is done slowly.

In reality I have seen Tai Jee done VERY fast, but only after it was learned.

 

 

That's amusing, and maybe accurate too! ...

I wish I had the original article. The author gave some pretty good references if I remember correctly - very convincing.

 

How about, in answer to the original question, that in order to learn to optimize moment arms and force vectors so as to increase efficiency in breaking arm, stopping heart, break shoulder, break ribs, block, break jaw, etc., one must learn it very slowly. Then do it fast.

Oh wait, I forgot I live in the USA. The majority of people I run into have no idea what each movement means. "We do it slow because it is a slow moving meditation."

[Friend]

Well.... beside slow motion breathing and breath coordination

there exist the forceful fast breathing behind each teachique

which can be exercised after have correct access to the full volume of breath.

A true full breath can not stack if one want to release and intake the whole.

 

Slow coordinate breathing also can be "fragmented" even if one has

a big lung volume.... reducing the effectivness..... with breath in and out 50ml

while having a lung volume of 3L which slowly decay the lung volume

and having a lack of breath while having the potential.

 

In breath coordination with movement there is a stronger awareness on

breath which extend the breath beyond the "standard breathing"

... which occure if one is not aware about it and other observe ones breathing rhythm.

 

It is easier to correct it in slow motion natural and extend and connect the parts

in a safer manner and strengthen the body and respiratory system

before doing forceful breathing with fast movement, which actually is teached in other martial

arts who exercise with producing sound which comes natural by strong exhale.

 

Well... at times in the past one has to teach weak and old Royality Tai Chi for health

and these people sure are not so fit , strong or flexible like the Elite Soldier serving under them

and as well not having good balance which I read in the past lead to remove of high kicks

and flying kicks and deeper stance and longer stance in the Yang Stile.

Remember when the 24 Yang Form has only one kick while the Old Yang Lu Chan still has

more in common with Chen Style.

 

Back to breathing is that each hand form and even Shou Yin or mudras do affect the breathing

by fragmentation or not ....

 

It is to be warned not to exercise the direct methods of slow breathing defragmentation alone

as it leads to a state where the defragmentation happens when one breath slowly

but it hinders and weakens when one need to use impulse and explosiv breathing

when there is a need of hurry and the inpulsive breathing hasnt been exercised.

The other part is whenever breathing space is opened and regain .... hydration

is to be done as more parts become more active and so ask for fluid.

[ChiDragon]

Friend....
You sure know the subtlety about breathing. I couldn't agree more.

May I say that there are two kicks in the 24 Yang Style....

Edited July 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Andrei]

'one kick' in the sense of 'one kick technique' which is 'pushing with heel' that you do it twice, but in the traditional sequence you have four kick techniques.

[ChiDragon]

In the 24 Yang Style, the two kicks are done with the right leg first, then turn to the left and kick with the left leg. TWO KICKS....no....???

[Horus]

"When moving the physical it may be helpful to helpful to start with the physical.

 

In the three dan tiens we have:

shen - light, mind

qi - vapor, breath

jing - fluid, body

 

This is my modest level of understanding. There are likely leaks and I am curious to see what others share."

Ok. What you have here is the TCM description of internal alchemy(內丹). However, the Tai Ji people are not too concern about that.

 

Really, I'd beg to differ in that.

 

When entering complete stillness and rootedness, the process of Taiji still has the same basis as neigong imo.

 

"They work with gravity somewhat. If you were to remove the jing, the qi would begin to condense into jing and the shen into qi.

 

So we start with the more physical, water-like, jing energy. We move slowly because it moves slowly, and if we rush ahead it's just like splashing the water around, or not moving it at all.

 

As we work with the heaviest level, we begin to refine it into lighter levels. We refine the jing into qi, the qi into shen, and the shen into an emptiness that is the unification of all three. When the body's energy has been mostly refined to shen, one may move the entire body with the speed of mind."

 

I think that's a very beautiful understanding

 

I've taken it to absurdity and gone really slow.

 

I'm doing less taji then neigong and medical qigong now - but when I was training taiji intensively I would do it ultra slow.

 

I'd slow it down to 30 mins per posture. I was never taught that, but was prompted by ..?

 

So, anyway doing that smashed my legs, and made my body feel like it was a tonne of bricks in human form - aches and pain etc

 

But the peace was astounding, the grass blowing in the breeze started "speaking" (not really speaking but I felt it's way, it's voice). All things start to merge back to oneness with utter stillness in movement, and the deeper into that we sung, the more we become one with the fullness of tao.

 

What I didn't realise in doing this was what I discovered when I returned to a "normal slow pace".

 

My form was stronger, more body-intuitive -even adding corrections I didn't know about.

 

And the power, speed, rootedness and fluidity had arrived.

 

So, why do we start slowly - I've loved what everyone else said.

 

But the best answer has to be:

 

Use that question as an entry to doing it - let your practice answer for itself.

[CloudHands]

I wish I had the original article. The author gave some pretty good references if I remember correctly - very convincing.

 

How about, in answer to the original question, that in order to learn to optimize moment arms and force vectors so as to increase efficiency in breaking arm, stopping heart, break shoulder, break ribs, block, break jaw, etc., one must learn it very slowly. Then do it fast.

Oh wait, I forgot I live in the USA. The majority of people I run into have no idea what each movement means. "We do it slow because it is a slow moving meditation."

 

Let's do some stretching.

 

1) I asked some young chinese about tai chi, they told me that's for old people. (in parks)

 

2) If you search for tai chi martial application in youtube you'll find tons of demos done by westerners (very few chinese)

 

3) In my country the national federation puts the external side before the internal work.

 

4) I red an article (somewhere on TTB) from a chinese martial artist saying tai chi (in china) was done as a martial art.

 

5) When you practice tai chi you know there are benefits apart the martial side so big it makes the martial part blush, that's why it tends to be use the way it is and for sure it can be a kind of moving meditation, a great tool to do lot of stuff and I see nothing bad in it.

 

6) I'll not repeat what I think about fighters that don't fight.

 

and of course I'm not sorry for bringing a peaceful contradiction

Edited July 9, 2014 by CloudHands

[Vitalii]

24 Yang Style is a modern simplified form.

[ChiDragon]

24 Yang Style is a modern simplified form.

 

Yes, it is also known as 國際太極(International Tai Ji).

[ChiDragon]

After all the discussions, debates and arguments, my conclusion is that the result of the practice depends on the understanding of each individual. One will only practice the way which one knows how. If the practitioner missed one thing in the concept, most lightly, the expected result will be altered from what the original system offers.

One who misses the whole conception of a system will never reach the expected result of that system. Perhaps, that is why somebody may practice after practice without getting any result.

Any thoughts on that....???

Edited July 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

After all the discussions, debates and arguments, my conclusion is that the result of the practice depends on the understanding of each individual. One will only practice the way which one knows how. If the practitioner missed one thing in the concept, most lightly, the expected result will be altered from what the original system offers.

 

One who misses the whole conception of a system will never reach the expected result of that system. Perhaps, that is why somebody may practice after practice without getting any result.

 

Any thoughts on that....???

 

The result depends on many more factors than simply the individual's understanding but that is one important element.

For this reason, it is important that a practitioner learn the system from an accomplished master who has realized and integrated the system in her life. When we try to learn in other ways (books, videos, trial and error), it is inevitable that our own expectations, bias, and conditioning color our experience and progress. When we learn from a realized master, we are learning directly from the lineage of the "original system," to whatever degree that still exists.

[NotVoid]

In my understanding the primary focus of tai chi chuan is to develop nei gong ability to the level that one can use this skill as a martial art. One also practices the ability neutralize an opponent's attack through non-resistance while fully maintaining your own center of balance, and practices the ability to 'listen' to an opponent's 'energy' to the point where they can readily sense the opponent's intentions before the opponent puts those intentions into action. Since this is the primary focus of tai chi chuan training, there is simply no need to practice the forms fast or tensed, and practicing the forms fast or tensed will actually be a hindrance to this type of training. This also applies to the push hands practice and related practices, although some people may practice some such practices somewhat faster after many years of practice once they reach a certain level, maybe just to keep things a bit more interesting after many years of practice. When you consider the true aims of tai chi chuan training, it really should not be a mystery at all of why the tai chi chuan form is practiced slowly and completely relaxed. I think it is only people who don't understand this, or who are stuck with the idea that martial arts training can only ever be effective if one is focusing specifically on muscular strength and speed training, who ignore the basic principles of tai chi chuan and try to change them. There is a type of strength training in tai chi chuan as well, but that strength is developed through the continuous slow and relaxed practiced of the forms and push hands . The true 'power' of tai chi chuan comes from the nei gong training. Sure, you can probably find all sorts of deviations from the core principles of tai chi chuan by various people out there, but it is only by adhering to the core principles of tai chi chuan as outlined in the various tai chi chuan 'classics' and as described by those accomplished in the true skills of tai chi chuan that a person will have a chance of approaching the true essence of tai chi chuan. I don't think anyone has ever said that mastering the principles of tai chi chuan is easy, and this is likely why there are so few who ever seem to reach a high level of accomplishment in tai chi chuan. That's my own view anyway.

 

Edited July 9, 2014 by NotVoid

[doc benway]

In my understanding the primary focus of tai chi chuan is to develop nei gong ability to the level that one can use this skill as a martial art. One also practices the ability neutralize an opponent's attack through non-resistance while fully maintaining your own center of balance, and practices the ability to 'listen' to an opponent's 'energy' to the point where they can readily sense the opponent's intentions before the opponent puts those intentions into action. Since this is the primary focus of tai chi chuan training, there is simply no need to practice the forms fast or tensed, and practicing the forms fast or tensed will actually be a hindrance to this type of training. This also applies to the push hands practice and related practices, although some people may practice some such practices somewhat faster after many years of practice once they reach a certain level, maybe just to keep things a bit more interesting after many years of practice. When you consider the true aims of tai chi chuan training, it really should not be a mystery at all of why the tai chi chuan form is practiced slowly and completely relaxed. I think it is only people who don't understand this, or who are stuck with the idea that martial arts training can only ever be effective if one is focusing specifically on muscular strength and speed training, who ignore the basic principles of tai chi chuan and try to change them. There is a type of strength training in tai chi chuan as well, but that strength is developed through the continuous slow and relaxed practiced of the forms and push hands . The true 'power' of tai chi chuan comes from the nei gong training. Sure, you can probably find all sorts of deviations from the core principles of tai chi chuan by various people out there, but it is only by adhering to the core principles of tai chi chuan as outlined in the various tai chi chuan 'classics' and as described by those accomplished in the true skills of tai chi chuan that a person will have a chance of approaching the true essence of tai chi chuan. I don't think anyone has ever said that mastering the principles of tai chi chuan is easy, and this is likely why there are so few who ever seem to reach a high level of accomplishment in tai chi chuan. That's my own view anyway.

 

 

Nice post. The first step in achieving some skill in the neigong you describe is developing Ting Jin (聽勁) or listening/sensing energy. Until we can listen and feel the opponent, we have no hope of reacting and neutralizing, not to mention counter-attacking. The only way to develop ting jin is to first be quiet. You can't hear or feel if you are noisy or distracted. This is why they talk about stillness in movement in taijiquan. First you pay attention to the inside of yourself, then to the environment, and lastly to the opponent. This can only come from quiet and stillness.

[Daeluin]

The result depends on many more factors than simply the individual's understanding but that is one important element.

For this reason, it is important that a practitioner learn the system from an accomplished master who has realized and integrated the system in her life. When we try to learn in other ways (books, videos, trial and error), it is inevitable that our own expectations, bias, and conditioning color our experience and progress. When we learn from a realized master, we are learning directly from the lineage of the "original system," to whatever degree that still exists.

 

While there are many presumptions on what a master is or should be, it may be safe to say a master has mastered the natural bias of their own self and ego. In turn the master can help guide others to this same goal.

 

Someone once asked me why he felt so much better doing intuitive movement, and why he felt held back by doing forms. I believe this is because the forms may challenge natural blockages that come form our "bias". When we are able to overcome the challenges of the form, we overcome the "bias" that particular form reflected to us. Another form may hold different reflections. Ultimately life and death must be faced to overcome our deepest bias.

 

A master can guide us to slow down when we need to slow down.

A master can guide us to speed up when we need to speed up.

A master can allow us to surrender our minds so we are not consumed by the need to think about when to do what.

[Ya Mu]

Let's do some stretching.

 

1) I asked some young chinese about tai chi, they told me that's for old people. (in parks)

 

2) If you search for tai chi martial application in youtube you'll find tons of demos done by westerners (very few chinese)

 

3) In my country the national federation puts the external side before the internal work.

 

4) I red an article (somewhere on TTB) from a chinese martial artist saying tai chi (in china) was done as a martial art.

 

5) When you practice tai chi you know there are benefits apart the martial side so big it makes the martial part blush, that's why it tends to be use the way it is and for sure it can be a kind of moving meditation, a great tool to do lot of stuff and I see nothing bad in it.

 

6) I'll not repeat what I think about fighters that don't fight.

 

and of course I'm not sorry for bringing a peaceful contradiction

It was interesting as well as sad that so many of the young people in China referred to ALL the arts of as either "superstitious nonsense" or, as you say, "something the old people did in parks". A true heritage ignored. I guess no different than our younger folks who are ignorant of the Asian Arts but read a book and consider themselves knowledgeable experts.

 

I have no horse in the Tai Jee race and am not a martial artist. I have only studied one style, Chen Pan Ling. The teacher knew every single move's use as a martial art - extremely effectively brutal - and we did it very slow to learn it and it is practiced very slow. In application it is very fast. I doubt there are too many who do this or know how to do this. Chen Pan Ling allegedly learned all the major as well as several minor variations of Tai Chi and utilized his engineering knowledge of statics & dynamics to correct the moment arms and force vectors for optimization as strikes & blocks. All the moves - about 300 - had specific martial applications. Of course I think all this was influenced by his Hsing I, Bagua, kungfu in general - it is said he mastered 75 different styles of martial arts and the hundreds of forms within all the styles.

 

I do know from having perhaps up to a thousand Tai Chi teachers in my neigong classes that the majority knew little of what the art's forms actually do nor did the majority have much understanding of Qi - but they looked grand in the park (which I think is the motive for far too many in the USA). There were of course some of them that understood both aspects and I highly respect that.

My teacher, Master Chang, was Chen Pan Ling's senior student (introduced himself this way at age 93) and he knew martial applications extremely well. When I first met him and asked to learn his Hsing I (I was not interested in Tai Chi). He first said he wouldn't teach the Hsing I until I had taken his Tai Jee for 10 years. After I told him my background, he said maybe but first I had to hit him. Long story short is I gave it the best I had. I don't know exactly what happened but somehow he ended up behind me and caught my head before it hit the wall. He then said he would teach me his Hsing I if I studied the Tai Chi at the same time. I had learned first hand what Tai Chi martial applications are capable of.

[NotVoid]

Not all that is termed 'nei gong' is the same thing at all. There are also different levels of achievement in nei gong, and the corresponding skill levels will reflect that. This is often a source of confusion for many people these days. In tai chi chuan the forms must be practiced slowly and relaxed, as the form practice is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan. Regularly practicing the forms slowly and relaxed while maintaining the core principles of tai chi chuan throughout the forms practice as best as one can develops the nei gong skill of tai chi chuan. Without this proper foundation a person is only going through the motions. One does not have to reach a high level of attainment in tai chi chuan nei gong to get the various health benefits of tai chi chuan practice however, so just because many people do not practice tai chi chuan to a high level level of nei gong or martial arts attainment, it most certainly does not mean that their tai chi chuan practice is of no value. There are likely many thousands, if not millions, of regular every day people out there who are getting all sorts of benefits from their tai chi practice, even though they may not ever become anywhere near a martial arts master.

 

The practical benefits of tai chi chuan practice are many, and achievement of a high degree of nei gong or martial arts skill is not a requirement to achieve many benefits from tai chi chuan practice. There are levels of attainment, and even at lower levels in tai chi chuan practice, when practiced reasonably correctly, it is still quite beneficial. I believe that people who suggest that one must attain a high level of nei gong or martial skill in tai chi chuan to have achieved anything in tai chi chuan are mainly views of people who have no actual real experience with authentic tai chi chuan practice. Again, in my view anyway, there are various levels of attainment, and there are various benefits that can be had from tai chi chuan practice even at lower levels of attainment. In all probability, many every day common people who may only practice tai chi chuan only a couple a times a week, but who have been practicing fairly regularly for several years this way, are probably as healthy if not healthier in various ways than many of the so called qi gong and nei gong 'masters' and whatnot claiming to have the only true teachings and true achievements and all that sort of nonsense. Also many of these common everyday people who practice fairly regularly for several years could also probably hold their own in a self defense situation at least as well if not better than many of the hot air qigong and neigong masters out there. I have seen many humble everyday common people who have practiced tai chi chuan for even just a few years who really have obviously attained some real benefits that they themselves do not even seem to realize they have attained. Such is the way of things in this world. Just my own point of view on the matter.