Why Does Tai Ji Starts with Slow Motion?

[ChiDragon]

Not all that is termed 'nei gong' is the same thing at all. There are also different levels of achievement in nei gong, and the corresponding skill levels will reflect that. This is often a source of confusion for many people these days. In tai chi chuan the forms must be practiced slowly and relaxed, as the form practice is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan. Regularly practicing the forms slowly and relaxed while maintaining the core principles of tai chi chuan throughout the forms practice as best as one can develops the nei gong skill of tai chi chuan. Without this proper foundation a person is only going through the motions. One does not have to reach a high level of attainment in tai chi chuan nei gong to get the various health benefits of tai chi chuan practice however, so just because many people do not practice tai chi chuan to a high level level of nei gong or martial arts attainment, it most certainly does not mean that their tai chi chuan practice is of no value. There are likely many thousands, if not millions, of regular every day people out there who are getting all sorts of benefits from their tai chi practice, even though they may not ever become anywhere near a martial arts master.

 

Finally, a true master has emerged with a full understanding of Tai Ji(太極) and Nei Gong(內功). So far, you are the first person, in the site, who have mentioned that Tai Ji is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan.

 

For those who think that I am full of craps, then, please don't listen to me but NotVoid. Indeed, he speaks my language.

Edited July 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

 

Finally, a true master has emerged with a full understanding of Tai Ji(太極) and Nei Gong(內功). So far, you are the first person who have mentioned that Tai Ji is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan.

 

For those who think that I am full of craps, then, don't listen to me but NotVoid. Indeed, he speaks my language.

 

Funny, neigong has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but I guess you didn't notice.

Not trying to take anything away from NotVoid, the posts were excellent, but it certainly wasn't the first time that neigong was mentioned.

[doc benway]

It was interesting as well as sad that so many of the young people in China referred to ALL the arts of as either "superstitious nonsense" or, as you say, "something the old people did in parks". A true heritage ignored. I guess no different than our younger folks who are ignorant of the Asian Arts but read a book and consider themselves knowledgeable experts.

 

I have no horse in the Tai Jee race and am not a martial artist. I have only studied one style, Chen Pan Ling. The teacher knew every single move's use as a martial art - extremely effectively brutal - and we did it very slow to learn it and it is practiced very slow. In application it is very fast. I doubt there are too many who do this or know how to do this. Chen Pan Ling allegedly learned all the major as well as several minor variations of Tai Chi and utilized his engineering knowledge of statics & dynamics to correct the moment arms and force vectors for optimization as strikes & blocks. All the moves - about 300 - had specific martial applications. Of course I think all this was influenced by his Hsing I, Bagua, kungfu in general - it is said he mastered 75 different styles of martial arts and the hundreds of forms within all the styles.

 

I do know from having perhaps up to a thousand Tai Chi teachers in my neigong classes that the majority knew little of what the art's forms actually do nor did the majority have much understanding of Qi - but they looked grand in the park (which I think is the motive for far too many in the USA). There were of course some of them that understood both aspects and I highly respect that.

My teacher, Master Chang, was Chen Pan Ling's senior student (introduced himself this way at age 93) and he knew martial applications extremely well. When I first met him and asked to learn his Hsing I (I was not interested in Tai Chi). He first said he wouldn't teach the Hsing I until I had taken his Tai Jee for 10 years. After I told him my background, he said maybe but first I had to hit him. Long story short is I gave it the best I had. I don't know exactly what happened but somehow he ended up behind me and caught my head before it hit the wall. He then said he would teach me his Hsing I if I studied the Tai Chi at the same time. I had learned first hand what Tai Chi martial applications are capable of.

 

I practice Chen Pan Ling's 99 Forms, as he called it.

Fantastic form and like you say, it is full of martial applications.

The possibilities are only limited by our imagination.

There is bagua and xingyi mixed in.

 

Great story about Master Chang.

My guess is that Master Chang used heng quan on you (if it was xingyi) or lone phoenix at dawn (if bagua).

Both good moves to get behind an opponent.

The beautiful thing about Chen Pan Ling's method was how he created a systematic approach to the training.

My teacher learned from another of his senior students, Chen Jin Pao.

[ChiDragon]

Funny, neigong has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but I guess you didn't notice.

Not trying to take anything away from NotVoid, the posts were excellent, but it certainly wasn't the first time that neigong was mentioned.

 

"In tai chi chuan the forms must be practiced slowly and relaxed, as the form practice is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan."

 

Has somebody else mentioned this way.....???

 

[Daeluin]

Funny, neigong has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but I guess you didn't notice.

Not trying to take anything away from NotVoid, the posts were excellent, but it certainly wasn't the first time that neigong was mentioned.

 

I think we see what we attach to.... when we attach very specifically, we may be blind to what is more subtle yet right in front of us.

 

Unfortunately extreme specificity is very brittle, tends to poke at people and draw attention.

[CloudHands]

It was interesting as well as sad that so many of the young people in China referred to ALL the arts of as either "superstitious nonsense" or, as you say, "something the old people did in parks". A true heritage ignored. I guess no different than our younger folks who are ignorant of the Asian Arts but read a book and consider themselves knowledgeable experts.

 

I have no horse in the Tai Jee race and am not a martial artist. I have only studied one style, Chen Pan Ling. The teacher knew every single move's use as a martial art - extremely effectively brutal - and we did it very slow to learn it and it is practiced very slow. In application it is very fast. I doubt there are too many who do this or know how to do this. Chen Pan Ling allegedly learned all the major as well as several minor variations of Tai Chi and utilized his engineering knowledge of statics & dynamics to correct the moment arms and force vectors for optimization as strikes & blocks. All the moves - about 300 - had specific martial applications. Of course I think all this was influenced by his Hsing I, Bagua, kungfu in general - it is said he mastered 75 different styles of martial arts and the hundreds of forms within all the styles.

 

I do know from having perhaps up to a thousand Tai Chi teachers in my neigong classes that the majority knew little of what the art's forms actually do nor did the majority have much understanding of Qi - but they looked grand in the park (which I think is the motive for far too many in the USA). There were of course some of them that understood both aspects and I highly respect that.

My teacher, Master Chang, was Chen Pan Ling's senior student (introduced himself this way at age 93) and he knew martial applications extremely well. When I first met him and asked to learn his Hsing I (I was not interested in Tai Chi). He first said he wouldn't teach the Hsing I until I had taken his Tai Jee for 10 years. After I told him my background, he said maybe but first I had to hit him. Long story short is I gave it the best I had. I don't know exactly what happened but somehow he ended up behind me and caught my head before it hit the wall. He then said he would teach me his Hsing I if I studied the Tai Chi at the same time. I had learned first hand what Tai Chi martial applications are capable of.

 

Ya Mu, I wasn't talking about you, nor I and certainly not about my school, I keep the story as an interesting anecdote but that doesn't mean a lot to me since I do know tai chi is a martial art, never questioned that.

My teacher said me too that it will take 10 years to get some serious level

 

What I reacted against was the idea that if you don't practice with the idea of fighting it's useless. I feel something like "if you do tai chi but you don't pretend to be a fighter then your school sucks" and I don't agree, I'm glad old people to have the possibility to do a kind of slow gymnastic while they try to be more conscious of their body.

Most people will not go further anyway and to be honest, when I started, I wasn't expecting much more than to relax myself and have a better connection with my body. Now I know it's very potent and that I have a lot more to learn that I expected (which is an absolutely great new).

 

So I agree that there is sub schools, bad schools, that many do a mix of dance and gymnastic but I'm will not spit on them. Everyone gets what he needs, what he can.

 

That's always interesting to push people/be pushed (even in a kind way), that's something we work on

[dawei]

Funny, neigong has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but I guess you didn't notice.

Not trying to take anything away from NotVoid, the posts were excellent, but it certainly wasn't the first time that neigong was mentioned.

 

Yes, not to take away from a good post... but the neigong aspect was 'duh' to me. Many lineages try to hide the internal teaching but will show the external methods... When the Tai Ji masters were called to the non-Chinese ruling court to teach them Tai Ji they decided to hide the neigong teaching and taught the external methods to the court ... rather than die for refusing to come.

 

 

Yang Chengfu's "The Ten Essentials" has: 'Internal and External unite'; 'insubstantial vs substantial'; 'stillness in motion', etc.

 

In philosophy, it is the steady state of Xuan, between Wu and You (Marblehead will maybe get this).

 

In Mo Pai (can't believe I am saying this), it is probably that state similar to between Sleep and Awake.

 

But one cannot just consider it reductionism or the mix or merge or blend of two states into One...

 

It is more like "Not Two; Not One"... IT is the same basic goal as alchemy.

 

 

Wu --------- O ----------- You

 

Insubstantial ----------- O ------------- Substantial

 

Internal ------------ O --------------- External

 

This 2-D does not do it justice... even a 3-D vanishing point is not quite right.

[Daeluin]

Why Wu and You?

 

Edit: my understanding being, wu: fullness of yang and you: when yin overcomes yang.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Daeluin

[dawei]

Why Wu and You?

 

Edit: my understanding being, wu: fullness of yang and you: when yin overcomes yang.

 

a few links:

 

Wu: non-existence

You: existence

 

http://www.dynamictao.com/dynamictao_main.html

 

http://www.philosophy.hku.hk/ch/You-wu.htm

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=F06FKmKKIXwC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=wu+and+you+in+laozi&source=bl&ots=E6bCN_4PmU&sig=s-bvs7N7Jxmjtmk9-dB7LWIWF8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYW9U5uiGZCMyATs7IGgAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=wu%20and%20you%20in%20laozi&f=false

[doc benway]

As requested by the Dragon of Chi -

Discussion of neigong throughout this thread:

 

Tai Chi is performed slowly so that the practitioner can perfect stance, posture and correct movement whilst in a state of sung.

 

 

something about jing?

 

 

To feel the energy clearly.

 

 

When moving the physical it may be helpful to helpful to start with the physical.

 

In the three dan tiens we have:

shen - light, mind

qi - vapor, breath

jing - fluid, body

 

They work with gravity somewhat. If you were to remove the jing, the qi would begin to condense into jing and the shen into qi.

 

So we start with the more physical, water-like, jing energy. We move slowly because it moves slowly, and if we rush ahead it's just like splashing the water around, or not moving it at all.

 

As we work with the heaviest level, we begin to refine it into lighter levels. We refine the jing into qi, the qi into shen, and the shen into an emptiness that is the unification of all three. When the body's energy has been mostly refined to shen, one may move the entire body with the speed of mind.

 

 

In my opinion the slower you move the better is the neuromuscular programming, it is that "hand-brain-eye coordination".

Also the slow movements allow time for the practitioner to be aware of the body and its feed-back sensations.

 

 

I would add though, that stillness is where the Jing is developed most strongly, so, 'not moving at all' is an important, if not the important pearl on the necklace.

 

 

Chang San-Feng said:

 

1G. Move in an agile, balanced, and coordinated manner.
Once you decide to move,
The parts of the body should act together:
Feeling connected and coordinated,
As balanced as two feathers on a scale,
Strung together like pearls in a necklace,
Agile like a cat,
Lighter than moonbeams,
Mobile as a young monkey.

 

2G Energize the body and quiet the gathered spirit.
Raise up awareness to draw Chi to every nerve,
Fill up the body with the strength of the excited Force,
Stir and stimulate the Chi from head to toe,
Playing the Great Drum of Inner Powers.
Keep the spirit calm within,
Vital forces tamed and quiet,
Riding the Tigress to the Temple,
Gently leading the Great Ox past the Gate;
Condensing the Elixir of Spirit in the Inner Chamber.

 

3G. Move in a continuous, even and smooth manner.
Do not overextend the limbs or sully the forms.
Flow like the Great River
Filling all the holes and hallows,
Unbroken, gathered, full, unstoppable;
Seeking the True Level, finding the Golden Mean,
Neither excessive nor deficient in Yin or Yang;
Holding postures as perfect as the Blue Lotus,
Moving steadily between forms like the White Tiger,
Uniting body and will in the Jade Furnace,
Transcending inner and outer, starting and stopping.

 

 

Similarly, we are advised to use the Yi to guide the Qi.

Using the Yi to guide the Qi throughout the form becomes an excellent mind/body meditation.

 

 

That's amusing, and maybe accurate too! When I made my first post I was pondering this a bit.... well.... sure one can start with shen and slowly dissolve the qi and jing... why not? But these days we're already so mental and "in our heads".

 

We need to slow down so we can feel the slow way the jing moves and learn to embrace it. But we also need to slow down so we can dissolve the blockages enough to even allow the qi to flow.... and actually get the qi back into our lower body. The slowness is a very effective way to cultivate the feeling of whole body power.

 

 

What I was referring to are more advanced practices like integrating the Yi and Qi.

....

I know that your interpretation, from your reading, of qi chen dan tian relates solely to breathing but that is simply because you've not had the benefit of more advanced instruction.

 

 

 

We move slowly in taiji practice to be able to do following things (imho) -

.......

1. slow movement induces relaxation, which increases our ability to sense qi flow, thereby making us aware of where there is excess/less of qi flow in the body,
2. slow movement, after step 4, will allow us to balance qi flow through out the body, thereby creating one unified structure which then helps towards step 1
3. slow movement, after step 5, will help us condense the qi into the bone marrow, thereby generating Jin, which can be released without excessive physical movement, thereby refining and strengthening what is outlined in step 1.
4. somewhere between step 1 and step 6, the "Breathing" equation gets dropped, because one must be able to express power (fa jin) whether he/she is breathing in or out. As a corollary thereof, the speed of inhalation or exhalation will become moot as well.

 

When entering complete stillness and rootedness, the process of Taiji still has the same basis as neigong imo.

 

....

 

But the best answer has to be:

 

Use that question as an entry to doing it - let your practice answer for itself.

 

Sorry if I missed any and I hope no one minds that I took the liberty of editing posts for brevity...

[ChiDragon]

Steve....
Thank you for all your effort. However, I still don't see all the quotes that you have cited about Nei Gong were explicitly stated as NotVoid had.

In tai chi chuan the forms must be practiced slowly and relaxed, as the form practice is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan.

Edited July 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

Ya Mu, I wasn't talking about you, nor I and certainly not about my school, I keep the story as an interesting anecdote but that doesn't mean a lot to me since I do know tai chi is a martial art, never questioned that.

My teacher said me too that it will take 10 years to get some serious level

 

What I reacted against was the idea that if you don't practice with the idea of fighting it's useless. I feel something like "if you do tai chi but you don't pretend to be a fighter then your school sucks" and I don't agree, I'm glad old people to have the possibility to do a kind of slow gymnastic while they try to be more conscious of their body.

Most people will not go further anyway and to be honest, when I started, I wasn't expecting much more than to relax myself and have a better connection with my body. Now I know it's very potent and that I have a lot more to learn that I expected (which is an absolutely great new).

 

So I agree that there is sub schools, bad schools, that many do a mix of dance and gymnastic but I'm will not spit on them. Everyone gets what he needs, what he can.

 

That's always interesting to push people/be pushed (even in a kind way), that's something we work on

 

This post is very cogent for me right now. I spent over a decade practicing taijiquan as a martial art. I was happy to benefit from the other qualities but didn't really think or care about it much. My meditative practice took me to some places that have changed me. My values and priorities have changed. I have very little interest any longer in martial training. I find that cultivating love, compassion, and relationships is something that will be of more consequence to me at this point in my life and moving forward. I still practice form and circle walking, but now there is no martial intent. Oh it pops up constantly, applications jump into my mind as I do the movement, but I'm slowly trying to let that go - just for me, not because I think it is 'right' or 'better' for anyone else.

 

I do think that having a solid understanding of the martial aspect makes the internal martial arts even more effective for healthy, well being, spiritual, and energetic development. This is because understanding and respecting the martial principles generally insures more anatomically and physiologically efficient posture, movement, and breathing. That said, if one learns these principles, I think the martial component can be abandoned for those that have no taste for that aspect.

[doc benway]

Steve....

Thank you for all your effort. However, I still don't see all the quotes that you have cited about Nei Gong were explicitly stated as NotVoid had.

 

 

Sorry I'm not a better teacher.

Peace

[Daeluin]

ChiDragon.... you called someone a True Master, and said they were the "first person, in the site, who have mentioned that Tai Ji is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan."

 

How do you know someone is a "True Master"? Don't you see how this will cause others to react to your absolutist proclamation, let alone put the object of your pronouncement in an awkward position?

 

Then you declare this is the "first person in the site" - not the thread, the site - "who have mentioned that <this> is actually <something very specific>". Do you see how this might trigger others to react?

 

Have you pondered much on Chapters 1 and 2 of Zhuang Zi? From these chapters I had an epiphany on how I can only truly know my own inside, and how I can only see others from their outsides. Thus how can I truly know what is right or wrong, let alone make or defend proclamations of truth? Further, when something rings true to me, it is likely something very specific to my needs. If I seek validation for this truth externally with great specificity, the only thing I am likely to get is disappointment and reaction. Seek validation within, and offer compassion and gentleness without, is my advice!

[dawei]

Sorry I'm not a better teacher.

Peace

 

Some of us find stillness in motion... others only see motion or stillness... when the eyes are open, it's all gray matter

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon.... you called someone a True Master, and said they were the "first person, in the site, who have mentioned that Tai Ji is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan."

 

How do you know someone is a "True Master"? Don't you see how this will cause others to react to your absolutist proclamation, let alone put the object of your pronouncement in an awkward position?

 

Did you know one can only get the truth from an awkward position by the reaction of those who are agitated.....???

Edited July 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Did you know one can only get the truth from an awkward position by the reaction of those who are agitated.....???

 

Elitist pronounces die hard... but don't last long...

[Daeluin]

Did you know one can only get the truth from an awkward position by the reaction of those who are agitated.....???

 

Oh yes.... it takes two.

 

This spring I pondered on how when I get entangled up in a blackberry bush, I calmly untangle myself from the thorns, step around and go on my way. But gosh how frustrating those human blackberry bushes can be, and suddenly I find myself reacting with my own thorns, and oh how much more entangled we all become.

 

steve - stop reacting to blackberry bushes.

ChiDragon - stop becoming a blackberry bush!

 

That is, unless you do this on purpose as a lesson in how not to react. But doesn't it get tiring? Is this the kind of reaction you want from your posts? Being thorny isn't wrong, but it does tend to invite all manner of reaction.

 

The quote you attached to so much is: "In tai chi chuan the forms must be practiced slowly and relaxed, as the form practice is actually the primary method of nei gong practice and development in tai chi chuan."

 

I can abstract this to say "the key to nei gong development lies in relaxation".

[Daeluin]

Elitist pronounces die hard... but don't last long...

 

Ack more thorns!

[dawei]

Ack more thorns!

 

Do some searching... you'll be pleasantly surprised at the truth of it... You can PM me if you need an explanation.

[doc benway]

Thanks for the helpful comments Daeluin...

There's a lot of history here and I would also be happy to discuss further with you privately to avoid any further conflict.

I would do better to be more circumspect and less concerned with pointing out errors and inconsistencies in others' posts.

_/\_

[CloudHands]

I can abstract this to say "the key to nei gong development lies in relaxation".

 

That may be

Edited July 9, 2014 by CloudHands

[GrandmasterP]

Some very good answers. Gotta love the consistency of CD type question posting.

 

So you guys may or may not appreciate this story. I will do my best to paraphrase an article that appeared in one of the Tai Jee magazines several years ago:

The REAL Reason Tai Chi is Performed Slowly

Turns out that once upon a time all Tai Chi was practiced swiftly. The "grand" master injured himself. When he recouped enough to start back practicing, he could only do the forms slowly as it hurt him to do them very fast. Everyone thought that the "grand" was doing something they didn't know about so they copied him. And now it is done slowly.

In reality I have seen Tai Jee done VERY fast, but only after it was learned.

Love it.

There's a zen story similar.

The abbot of a zen temple owned a cat that liked to walk round rubbing against the monks when they were sitting zazen.

So every night the abbot says to a junior monk...

" Lock the cat in the kitchen."

Eventually the cat dies, so does the abbot.

All these hundreds of years later in that temple every zazen session begins with the 'sacred' ritual of "locking the cat in the kitchen".

 

Edited July 9, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ChiDragon]

That may be

 

Did I see some uncertainties in the statement....???

[CloudHands]

I think it is but I'm not good enough to assure anything. I'm only one (person) ^^