Why Does Tai Ji Starts with Slow Motion?

[GreytoWhite]

I had originally written a much longer response but fat fingered a keyboard shortcut. *sigh* I agree with steve in that the issue boils down to how one understands the nature of jin.

 

ChiDragon, it is you whose posts I have trouble reading. Mainly because there are holes in your experience and rather than admitting humbly that you may not know you pontificate about training methods which you have not experienced and apparently do not have "the eye" to see the purpose.

 

Each art has its own methods and training, you do not even have the full experience of training your own art which REQUIRES push hands to develop jin properly. Taiji and any other martial art require a training partner or a skilled opponent for one to progress. Yes there are things you can do - hanging from a pole, slowly entering and then leaving a pool, zhan zhuang in neck high water, tree striking, wall striking, bosu balls are very versatile, resistance bands, pole shaking, staff work, rope shaking, but none of these things have their own intent or skill.

 

This video breaks down just what these Xinyi Liuhe exercises are for and if you doubt the art's training methods the fellow's skill should be apparent here as he breaks it down,

 

[dwai]

Really.....!!

Are you saying that you can bypass the slow form and still can build up the Jin(勁) by practicing some special training methods....???

 

It sounds a little peculiar to me. May I ask do you practice Tai Ji Chuan or those methods....??? I also would like to hear something about those special training methods.

 

 

If I may chime in, the answer is "Both Taiji Quan as well as "those" methods".

 

For instance, I practice a system called "Temple Style Taiji Quan" (as taught by Master Waysun Liao). We do the form (and primarily single forms are preferred over the long form). We also do after a certain level of practice something called "Condensation breathing", which is done in a still stance and involves condensing the qi into the bone marrow - thereby producing and storing Jin.

 

So, that is used to accelerate the development of Jin. That is the Nei Gong that is part of Taiji that many people don't get to learn.

Edited July 14, 2014 by dwai

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon, it is you whose posts I have trouble reading. Mainly because there are holes in your experience and rather than admitting humbly that you may not know you pontificate about training methods which you have not experienced and apparently do not have "the eye" to see the purpose.

 

The reason you are having trouble with the OP is because you have already underestimate my understanding. If you have preconceived idea about my understanding, then we have lost half the battle already. I will consider to respond to your comments with good judgement until your bias notion has been lifted.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[PLB]

GreytoWhite,

 

I found the the Liehue Quan video to be very interesting and helpful. The student in the video is obviously accomplished. Seeing the slight difference between him and the teacher is a great lesson in what can happen simultaneously.

The style reminds me a lot of the aspects of the Dong family fajin form I am struggling to learn: the slower gathering and the quick release. Also the grounding of the downward strikes.

 

When I push or spar, it seems to me the slow and the fast are both happening together; sometimes handing off something to the other, sometimes oddly knitted together like two different lines of progression that come together as a surprise. The most irresistable pushes I have received were almost leisurely in their expansion. The fast thing wasn't necessary right then.

 

But it was right there. Not behind but side by side. That has become my model.

[GreytoWhite]

I can only aspire to this gentleman's integration of his art into his body. This is from a village near of Chenjiagou and is very obviously related to their taiji cannon fist.

 

 

Here are some great examples of auxiliary exercises in Hulei (Sudden Thunder) taiji to train jin. Far more effective than endless form practice.

 

 

[GreytoWhite]

Yang Shaohu's Fast Form

 

[ChiDragon]

Here are some great examples of auxiliary exercises in Hulei (Sudden Thunder) taiji to train jin. Far more effective than endless form practice.

 

My friend, now, I see why you are saying that. Those people are way above the beginning level. The auxiliary exercises are for much higher levels. Those guys did not skip kindergarten for sure.

Edited July 15, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

GreytoWhite....

Let me clarify this. The impression that you gave me is that one can acquire the Jin from the auxiliary exercise by skipping the endless(slow) form practice. I am saying that is not the case. The auxiliary exercise is for the people who have acquired the Jin from the slow form practice as a prerequisite. The auxiliary exercise is for an advanced practice in exerting the existing Jin more rigorously.

[GreytoWhite]

I am speaking strictly from my own experience here ChiDragon - I do not practice form and I have jin. I have never in my life learned an entire martial form. What I practice are the 'auxiliary' exercises that I occasionally link together some movements in series of four or five. I sometimes move slowly in practice to examine tension along planes of movement or for postural transition to check my structure. Otherwise I want to be able to USE what I am learning and working on and in my opinion it is much harder to do these exercises at speed with structure than it is to do them slowly. I have used it. I've fought tattooed criminals, I've inadvertently bounced friends into walls, left red hand prints from the gentlest of strikes, cracked concrete stairs with gentle strikes, and one of my favorites is to punch and kick street signs to watch them shake for minutes.

 

These exercises are not strictly for advanced practitioners but rather it is the carry water, chop wood paradigm. If a teacher is truly invested in developing his student these will be the first things he teaches and the student would practice this the rest of his life regardless of how many forms he had under his belt. Anyone can show off a form in public, the exercises were the best kept secrets and not taught openly until the past few decades.

 

Are you familiar with the internal art of Ziranmen? Originally it was no forms, just exercises and the later practitioners learned other styles' forms to counter their moves.

 

 

My Chen shi teacher saw early on I was more interested in building a different body than learning a form, I wanted to walk and move with power again. So what did I get? A Yiquan-inspired taiji instruction. Mainly zhan zhuang, silk reeling exercises, Shaolin jibengong (the most important base to any gong fu student), some of wing chun's Siu Nim Tao and Biu Jee to learn differential tension, and a few patterns of push hands. His words will always influence my practice.

 

"I practiced Yang style for fifteen years at first just to fix my back. Later I wanted to fight but my teacher couldn't fight. He tried to say it was only for advanced students. Fuck! I've been practicing for almost a third of my life but I never could figure out how to use this shit. Then I learned Shaolin and wing chun. Wing chun is good for fighting. I met Chen Xiaowang, talked of my ancestral lineage for my art, he talked of his. He showed me how to apply breathing and fa jin. He said his Chinese disciple would teach me the good shit and she did. Forms are only for those who are committed to the style, to preserve it, to make it look like the brand of car you are driving around. What you want is the engine behind the art, learn this and you have gong fu. The forms are only submission."

[GreytoWhite]

This is one of the best Yang taiji performances I have seen on the Internet in some time. You know what he teaches his students first? Xinyi Liuhe.

 

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/DeFNUkiX8HY/?qq-pf-to=pcqq.c2c

[ChiDragon]

This is one of the best Yang taiji performances I have seen on the Internet in some time. You know what he teaches his students first? Xinyi Liuhe.

 

Even though, basically, he is doing the Yang style 24 movement. However, I saw he mixed with some Chen style moves in it. I wouldn't say it is the best Yang stye.

 

The title is just say 24 movements but didn't specify the style. At first, no wonder I didn't recognize the Yang style moves is because he was doing the Chen style at the beginning. It seems to me that he had practiced the Chen Style for a long time.

 

 

PS....

Thank you for your response about your experience. Now, I know where you came from. I will reply to it when I have a little more time.

Edited July 15, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

I am speaking strictly from my own experience here ChiDragon - I do not practice form and I have jin. I have never in my life learned an entire martial form. What I practice are the 'auxiliary' exercises that I occasionally link together some movements in series of four or five. I sometimes move slowly in practice to examine tension along planes of movement or for postural transition to check my structure. Otherwise I want to be able to USE what I am learning and working on and in my opinion it is much harder to do these exercises at speed with structure than it is to do them slowly. I have used it. I've fought tattooed criminals, I've inadvertently bounced friends into walls, left red hand prints from the gentlest of strikes, cracked concrete stairs with gentle strikes, and one of my favorites is to punch and kick street signs to watch them shake for minutes.

 

These exercises are not strictly for advanced practitioners but rather it is the carry water, chop wood paradigm. If a teacher is truly invested in developing his student these will be the first things he teaches and the student would practice this the rest of his life regardless of how many forms he had under his belt. Anyone can show off a form in public, the exercises were the best kept secrets and not taught openly until the past few decades.

 

Are you familiar with the internal art of Ziranmen? Originally it was no forms, just exercises and the later practitioners learned other styles' forms to counter their moves.

 

 

My Chen shi teacher saw early on I was more interested in building a different body than learning a form, I wanted to walk and move with power again. So what did I get? A Yiquan-inspired taiji instruction. Mainly zhan zhuang, silk reeling exercises, Shaolin jibengong (the most important base to any gong fu student), some of wing chun's Siu Nim Tao and Biu Jee to learn differential tension, and a few patterns of push hands. His words will always influence my practice.

 

"I practiced Yang style for fifteen years at first just to fix my back. Later I wanted to fight but my teacher couldn't fight. He tried to say it was only for advanced students. Fuck! I've been practicing for almost a third of my life but I never could figure out how to use this shit. Then I learned Shaolin and wing chun. Wing chun is good for fighting. I met Chen Xiaowang, talked of my ancestral lineage for my art, he talked of his. He showed me how to apply breathing and fa jin. He said his Chinese disciple would teach me the good shit and she did. Forms are only for those who are committed to the style, to preserve it, to make it look like the brand of car you are driving around. What you want is the engine behind the art, learn this and you have gong fu. The forms are only submission."

 

Wonderful post - some here walk the walk.

Some not so much.

I'm trying to be open enough to feel that there is space for everyone to share...

I struggle with that sometimes.

 

Nice to have you here.

[doc benway]

This is one of the best Yang taiji performances I have seen on the Internet in some time. You know what he teaches his students first? Xinyi Liuhe.

 

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/DeFNUkiX8HY/?qq-pf-to=pcqq.c2c

 

Excellent video - alot to be learned here

[ChiDragon]

I am speaking strictly from my own experience here ChiDragon - I do not practice form and I have jin. I have never in my life learned an entire martial form. What I practice are the 'auxiliary' exercises that I occasionally link together some movements in series of four or five. I sometimes move slowly in practice to examine tension along planes of movement or for postural transition to check my structure. Otherwise I want to be able to USE what I am learning and working on and in my opinion it is much harder to do these exercises at speed with structure than it is to do them slowly. I have used it.

 

Are you familiar with the internal art of Ziranmen? Originally it was no forms, just exercises and the later practitioners learned other styles' forms to counter their moves.

My Chen shi teacher saw early on I was more interested in building a different body than learning a form, I wanted to walk and move with power again. So what did I get? A Yiquan-inspired taiji instruction. Mainly zhan zhuang, silk reeling exercises, Shaolin jibengong (the most important base to any gong fu student), some of wing chun's Siu Nim Tao and Biu Jee to learn differential tension, and a few patterns of push hands. His words will always influence my practice.

 

....... I met Chen Xiaowang, talked of my ancestral lineage for my art, he talked of his. He showed me how to apply breathing and fa jin. He said his Chinese disciple would teach me the good shit and she did.

 

Now, I know where you are coming from. I see why you were frustrated with the thread. You said you did not practice the form but you have Jin. It has indicated to me that you are born with a tremendous amount of physical strength but not jin. It is because by definition, Jin is a strength which is acquired from the slow practice of Tai Ji. That's why the Tai Ji practitioners use the term often.

 

I do know people born with a great amount of physical strength do not wish to practice the slow basic form of Tai Ji. For the same matter, after people who had developed the Jin from the slow form, they do not want to continue to practice but do the fast form and learn to Fa Jin. That said, it means that one cannot Fa Jin without Jin. Jin has to be acquired from the practice of the slow form as a prerequisite.

 

In your case, yes, you do not need to practice the slow form. You are so lucky that you have met Chen Xiaowang. I have learned a lot by watching many of his video online. As a matter of fact, I had translated one of his video about Fa Jin, extensively, on this site. He is the one that people should learn from how to Fa Jin effectively.

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2014 by ChiDragon

[PLB]

The stepping in the following video is very Yang style:

 

Lots of gong fu here.

Edited July 15, 2014 by PLB

[Marblehead]

The stepping in the following video is very Yang style:

 

Lots of gong fu here.

And I'll bet he can do that ten time faster than he did on video.

 

Excellent movements and very aggressive.

[ChiDragon]

And I'll bet he can do that ten time faster than he did on video.

 

Excellent movements and very aggressive.

 

Ten times faster is not the key to Taiji. One should be looking for ten times the Jin in his body. Please note when both of his hands thrust forward with vibration which is a good indication how much Jin is in him. An ordinary person normally stops at the end of the thrust.

 

A Taiji practitioner make his moves faster than the opponent by the following rules:

1. You don't move, I don't move.

2. As soon you move, I move first.

 

The first rule is to be standing still to observe what action is the opponent going to take. Then, the practitioner will know what counter move he will use. Since the practitioner knew what the counter move is, he can make the preparation before and wait for the aggressive move of the opponent.

 

Btw This the best speed in practice for Fa Jin. The practitioner must allow the yin force to reach its high and the yang force to reach its low. If one moves too fast, then, the moves will be out of sync. This is a big No No in Taiji Chuan.

 

PS....

All the talks about Fa Jin should go to this thread:

Let's Talk about Fa Jin(發勁)

Edited July 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Ten times faster is not the key to Taiji. One should be looking for ten times the Jin in his body. Please note when both of his hands thrust forward with vibration which is a good indication how much Jin is in him. An ordinary person normally stops at the end of the thrust.

 

But Chidragon, he is practicing an aggressive style of Tai Chi (Taiji). It is already obvious that he has more Jin than my gardens have flowers. Yes, I noticed his thrusts - directly to the heart and lungs.

[ChiDragon]

But Chidragon, he is practicing an aggressive style of Tai Chi (Taiji). It is already obvious that he has more Jin than my gardens have flowers. Yes, I noticed his thrusts - directly to the heart and lungs.

 

Please understand that the executed amount of Jin may be controlled by the practitioner. Can you imagine what happen to the opponent if he takes one step forward with the thrust....??? The amount of Jin may be exerted a lot more than just standing at one position.

Edited July 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

It's not possible to assess Jin by looking at it. It has to be felt by an opponent.

[Marblehead]

 

Please understand that the executed amount of Jin may be controlled by the practitioner. Can you imagine what happen to the opponent if he takes one step forward with the thrust....??? The amount of Jin may be exerted a lot more than just standing at one position.

I'm with you Chidragon. I still remember some of my military training.

 

A humorous BTW: Where I live there are a number of rent/lease homes so the population of younger people changes periodically. Whenever I notice new male teenagers in the area I try to create a situation so that I can talk with them. I will always find a way to mention that I am retired Army, was taught thirteen different ways to kill a person with my bare hands and I still remember seven of them. I generally add that I keep my .38 in perfect condition.

[Marblehead]

It's not possible to assess Jin by looking at it. It has to be felt by an opponent.

Well, I damn sure don't want to feel his!

[ChiDragon]

It's not possible to assess Jin by looking at it. It has to be felt by an opponent.

 

If one has Jin, then one may feel exactly what's taking place in whatever one was watching. If one doesn't see it, then one has no Jin.

Edited July 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

 

If one has Jin, then one may feel exactly what's taking place in whatever one was watching. If one doesn't see it, then one has no Jin.

No. You are wrong :-)

[PLB]

And I'll bet he can do that ten time faster than he did on video.

Excellent movements and very aggressive.

 

He is actually completing the requirements of a very slow form while also doing those quick things. That is what is most remarkable to me. I propose that such feats of combination are also a gong fu.

 

Form is not an end in itself but it is also not an empty vessel. Who benefits more from one kind of training versus another probably comes down to factors only experienced by an individual. I have had my ass kicked by all kinds of different people. I oddly survived against others.

 

The combination of qualities in the video are comparable to the gentleman greytowhite linked to in the

video. Watch the leisurely footwork. Sometimes he seems to be levitating. He is showing quickness and slowness together.

 

I cannot get involved in the discussion of jin and what it is or not. I have got some of it. But it would probably leave if I claimed to know much about it.