Texts for preliminary neidan study

[spatha]

 

Charter 4:

 

...

 

定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

 

Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy because the mind-heart has no place to set to work on. Therefore energy (Qi) is used as a handle/a starting point, and this is what is called preservation of pure energy (Qi).

 

Vitalii, the text contains yet another character 缘. How could you miss it in your translation?

[Vitalii]

Vitalii, the text contains yet another character 缘. How could you miss it in your translation?

 

really?

 

Could you provide your own translation, please?

[spatha]

 

really?

 

Could you provide your own translation, please?

Vitalii, you post your translations here, not me.

I'm just wondering why this translation is not complete.

[Vitalii]

Vitalii, you post your translations here, not me.

I'm just wondering why this translation is not complete.

 

If you consider that my translation is not complete than provide your complete translation.

If you cannot do it your words make no sense.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Vitalii

[ChiDragon]

定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

 

Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy because the mind-heart has no place to set to work on. Therefore energy (Qi) is used as a handle/a starting point, and this is what is called preservation of pure energy (Qi).

 

Vitalii, the text contains yet another character 缘. How could you miss it in your translation?

 

May I give it an explanation as a native speaker.......???

 

故缘 is a rather a classic term which can be translated as:

1. Then, it is because.....

2. The reason is because.....

 

To stabilize the heart(mind), one must nourish the Chi(养气). If the heart has no place to begin with, then, it is because the Chi had reached its limit. Thus it was so called the guarding of the genuine Chi.

[Vitalii]

it is because the Chi had reached its limit.

 

端倪 - clue [to]; inkling; main threads (of a complicated affair); outline

《庄子·大宗师》：“反覆终始，不知端倪。”

"释义 端倪：头绪。不知头绪。"

头绪

名词解释 - 源头、根由，

in this case 端倪 can be translated as: the starting point

Edited August 8, 2014 by Vitalii

[dawei]

定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

 

Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy because the mind-heart has no place to set to work on. Therefore energy (Qi) is used as a handle/a starting point, and this is what is called preservation of pure energy (Qi).

 

Your sentence break is correct.

 

But it is because the mind-heart is hard/difficult to control (to put to proper calmness/stabilization)

 

To stabilize the heart(mind), one must nourish the Chi(养气). If the heart has no place to begin with, then, it is because the Chi had reached its limit. Thus it was so called the guarding of the genuine Chi.

 

This is very awkward and should be a flag that the break and meaning are off.

[LaoZiDao]

it said that jing and qi refining are the first job, ie starting point.

[dawei]

it said that jing and qi refining are the first job, ie starting point.

 

Yes... which supports Ming before Xing

[LaoZiDao]

Yes, all texts do support this. Just people read them wrong, as you can see above.

 

"Chi had reached its limit. Thus it was so called the guarding of the genuine Chi."

 

Reached its limit? Can these even be explained in practical terms?

Edited August 8, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[ChiDragon]

 

May I give it an explanation as a native speaker.......???

 

故缘 is a rather a classic term which can be translated as:

1. Then, it is because.....

2. The reason is because.....

 

To stabilize the heart(mind), one must nourish the Chi(养气). If the heart has no place to begin with, then, it is because the Chi had reached its limit. Thus it was so called the guarding of the genuine Chi.

 

 

端倪 - clue [to]; inkling; main threads (of a complicated affair); outline

《庄子·大宗师》：“反覆终始，不知端倪。”

"释义 端倪：头绪。不知头绪。"

头绪

名词解释 - 源头、根由，

in this case 端倪 can be translated as: the starting point

 

Vitalii......

Very good, you are correct....

I will revise my translation to reflect your correct definition of 端倪 as follows:

 

定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

To stabilize the heart(mind), one must(必) nourish the Chi(养气) first(先). If the heart has no place to begin with, thus it is because Chi is the starting point. Hence, it was called "guarding the genuine Chi."

 

Note:

It may sound awkward, this is the closest translation. One need to interpret its meaning metaphorically.

 

Edited August 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[LaoZiDao]

 

 

Vitalii......

Very good, you are correct....

I will revise my translation to reflect your correct definition of 端倪 as follows:

定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

To stabilize the heart(mind), one must nourish the Chi(养气). If the heart has no place to begin with, then, it is because Chi is the starting point. Thus it was called "guard the genuine Chi."

 

 

So as I said, the key point of this paragraph is:

jing qi refining are the first job, ie starting point. Ie Ming is the starting point. Not the heart mind.

 

As you said yourself "heart has no place to begin with" this would be better translated as heart (mind) is not the starting point, refining of jingqi is (Ming).

[dawei]

I took a quick look at how Cleary translates this and he writes:

 

"Stabilization of mind must be preceded by development of energy because the mind has no place to set to work; So focus on energy is used as a starting point. This is what is called preservation of pure energy."

[Vitalii]

So as I said, the key point of this paragraph is:

jing qi refining are the first job, ie starting point. Ie Ming is the starting point. Not the heart mind.

 

As you said yourself "heart has no place to begin with" this would be better translated as heart (mind) is not the starting point, refining of jingqi is (Ming).

 

 

 

it cannot be translated in the way you did it

you pull out a few words from the text and do not consider what had been said before in the text and the previous chapters.

 

Yes... which supports Ming before Xing

 

Please, read all text from chapter 1

Edited August 9, 2014 by Vitalii

[Vitalii]

定心必先之以养气者

 

Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy

 

At first - Xin gong, then - Minggong

 

About it lots of information you can find in previous chapters.

[dawei]

定心必先之以养气者

 

Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy

 

At first - Xin gong, then - Minggong

 

About it lots of information you can find in previous chapters.

 

Realize that the phrase "preceded by" means that 'Cultivating energy' must be before 'stablization of the mind-heart'.

 

I am only appealing to the english translation you gave, not necessary the full text.

[Vitalii]

Realize that the phrase "preceded by" means that 'Cultivating energy' must be before 'stablization of the mind-heart'.

 

yes, I wrote incorrect quote.

 

I am only appealing to the english translation you gave, not necessary the full text.

 

that is why I say that one cannot pull out a few words from the text and consider what had been said before in the text and the previous chapters.

You can find there that Xin[g] gong is practiced before Minggong.

[ChiDragon]

定心必先之以养气者

 

Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy

 

At first - Xin gong, then - Minggong

 

About it lots of information you can find in previous chapters.

 

It only says cultivate Chi before Xing; but it is not necessary to mean that was not before Ming. Hence, it can be before both Xing and Ming without affecting one another. I couldn't think of a reason why should Xing or Ming has a priority over one or the other based on the cultivation of Chi.

 

 

Please note it should be Xing Gong(性功) rather than Xin Gong(心功) to be proper.

 

 

Edited: Changed Could to couldn't.

Edited August 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[JinlianPai]

Im sorry why are they separate again......?

[ChiDragon]

Im sorry why are they separate again......?

 

Do you mean why Xing and Ming are separated....???

[JinlianPai]

 

Do you mean why Xing and Ming are separated....???

 

 

Im referring to xing gong and ming gong.

[LaoZiDao]

Well lets first start with what is your understanding of xing and ming?

[opendao]

 

It only says cultivate Chi before Xing; but it is not necessary to mean that was not before Ming. Hence, it can be before both Xing and Ming without affecting one another. I couldn't think of a reason why should Xing or Ming has a priority over one or the other based on the cultivation of Chi.

 

 

Please note it should be Xing Gong(性功) rather than Xin Gong(心功) to be proper.

 

 

Edited: Changed Could to couldn't.

 

This string is a very usual instruction in Neidan, can be found in some other texts (same idea, not the exact text), so I don't really understand what can lead to any doubts here... Sure this exact quote speaks about the necessity to develop yuan qi _before_ yuan shen can find a place to start _its part_ of the work. And there are a lot of instructions in the text that the first stage is about stabilizing Ming. But for this exact process (in chap 4) both parts are needed (Qi and Shen), so the chapter gives some tips how to use Shen. It doesn't mean that it can be named "Xing Gong" yet... In general all that confirms the principle "Ming then Xing", but I doubt it's so easy to find where the text ends Ming part and starts Xing part... There are some direct words about stages but not in this chapter, and even there such distinction is not used as far as I recall.

[ChiDragon]

Im referring to xing gong and ming gong.

 

This the simplest way to understand them. A person has a mind and body. In order to make one a better and healthier person, one needs to cultivate the mind and the body. The ancient Chinese Taoists used these esoteric terms Xing(性) for the mind and the Ming(命) for the body.

 

The method for the Cultivation of Xing was called Xing Gong(性功); and the Cultivation of Ming was called Ming Gong(命功).

 

These esoteric terms are to be interpreted the Chinese Taoists only. Unfortunately, they cannot be found in any ordinary dictionaries. They are not to be translated as a common language within the same language or another language. To avoid confusion and misleading, people should not attempt to translate these two terms, on their own, without any knowledge of the Chinese Taoist terminologies. I might regret that I have said that.

[dawei]

Please note it should be Xing Gong(性功) rather than Xin Gong(心功) to be proper.

 

Maybe Vitalii can say which one he meant.

 

Xin gong is a preparatory practice in some branches. So, they are both used to describe a similar practice based on the school.