Texts for preliminary neidan study

[dawei]

Im sorry why are they separate again......?

 

They are no more separate than Yin and Yang are separate... but for ease of explanation and due to historical preference by sects, describing them separately arises.

 

But if you emphasize too much YIN (Xing) or too much YANG (Ming), then one has created an imbalance.

 

The step-wise idea of reversing the separation back to unity comes from Laozi... as does the seamless complimentary aspect (Spokes of a wheel = Ming; Hub of a wheel = Xing).

[ChiDragon]

Maybe Vitalii can say which one he meant.

 

Xin gong is a preparatory practice in some branches. So, they are both used to describe a similar practice based on the school.

 

Maybe......??? I need something more persuasive than that.

 

I know what he says but that was not what he said. I don't know that other schools are using the term Xin Gong. It is certainly not the standard of Quanzhen Pai(全真派). Based on Vitalii's input, I believe he is following the Quanzhen standards. I saw what he wrote "Xin(g)". I am sure what he was trying to say. In his mind the terms of Xin(心) and Xing(性) are the same. However, traditional, they are; but, linguistically, they are not.

[dawei]

Maybe......??? I need something more persuasive than that.

 

There is no persuasion intended. I only said that maybe Vitalii will explain his meaning.

 

 

I know what he says but that was not what he said. I don't know that other schools are using the term Xin Gong. It is certainly not the standard of Quanzhen Pai(全真派). Based on Vitalii's input, I believe he is following the Quanzhen standards. I saw what he wrote "Xin(g)". I am sure what he was trying to say. In his mind the terms of Xin(心) and Xing(性) are the same. However, traditional, they are; but, linguistically, they are not.

 

I'll let Vitalii talk for himself...

[Vitalii]

Maybe Vitalii can say which one he meant.

 

I mean Xin gong (心功) / heart-mind work which plays very important role for practice.

 

 

Maybe......??? I need something more persuasive than that.

 

I know what he says but that was not what he said. I don't know that other schools are using the term Xin Gong. It is certainly not the standard of Quanzhen Pai(全真派). Based on Vitalii's input, I believe he is following the Quanzhen standards. I saw what he wrote "Xin(g)". I am sure what he was trying to say. In his mind the terms of Xin(心) and Xing(性) are the same. However, traditional, they are; but, linguistically, they are not.

 

My point of view is following

 

Etymologically speaking, the character Xing 性 consists of Xin 心 (“heart-mind”) and 生 (“to be born”); Xing or Original nature is the heart-mind with which one was born. Original Nature is original spirit (yuan shen 元神).

 

Xin (心) - ordinary heart-mind is characterized by emotional and intellectual turmoil

Xing (性) - Innate nature or original nature

 

Xin and Xing are not the same.

Xing is not ordinary heart-mind.

Adepts need to cultivate their Original Nature (Xing) and to become free from emotional and intellectual turmoil and we can say that they no longer have a ordinary heart-mind (Xin).

That is why in Daoism, the purified and awakened condition of the heart-mind is sometimes spoken of as being “without a heart-mind” (wuxin 無心) or as the “dead heart-mind” (sixin 死心), or as “aligned-correct heart-mind” (zhengxin 正心), “true heart-mind” (zhenxin 真心), or “stabilized heart-mind” (dingxin 定心).

Ma Danyang said:

"Thus ordinary people have no mind-heart of clarity and purity, while daoists have no mind-heart of dust and defilement.”

 

In the Secret of the Golden Flower Xin and Xing are separated, and one cannot work with Xing if has not work with Xin before.

The Secret of the golden flower says 宗旨只要纯心行去 - the doctrine just requires that one practices with a pure heart-mind.

 

Master Zhang San Feng said:​

"But the contentiousness of the ordinary mind is firmly ingrained through long habit, and it is very difficult to stop the mind by these precepts. One may be unable to stop it, or one may still it temporarily and then lose that stillness. Battling with it, now failing, now succeeding, one pours with sweat. With continued practice over a long, long time, eventually it is possible to tame the mind. Do not give up this work, which has far-reaching consequences, just because you are temporarily unable to collect the mind."

Edited August 9, 2014 by Vitalii

[dawei]

I mean Xin gong (心功) / heart-mind work which plays very important role for practice.

 

I suspected you meant what you said. Thanks for clarifying further the distinction as you see it. This is how I have understood its role within some schools.

[ChiDragon]

Vitallii.....
Thank you! It was from your own words.

Edited August 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[JinlianPai]

So what would you say to a method that provides vast mental clarity and cultivates the body's energies as well?

[ChiDragon]

So what would you say to a method that provides vast mental clarity and cultivates the body's energies as well?

 

 

Okay, if I understood correctly. You are asking about a "method" for the cultivation of the mind and body. Am I correct....???

 

This method had been laid out sometime ago by Chinese Taoists. It is the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM) as I have talked many many times already. The former cultivates the mentality and the latter cultivates the physicality. I hope I answered your question.

[opendao]

I mean Xin gong (心功) / heart-mind work which plays very important role for practice.

 

...

 

Adepts need to cultivate their Original Nature (Xing) and to become free from emotional and intellectual turmoil and we can say that they no longer have a ordinary heart-mind (Xin).

...

 

In the Secret of the Golden Flower Xin and Xing are separated, and one cannot work with Xing if has not work with Xin before.

The Secret of the golden flower says 宗旨只要纯心行去 - the doctrine just requires that one practices with a pure heart-mind.

 

Other opinions? This string is in Chap 4, which doesn't describe any initial stage. Is the process described in Chap 4 is a part of Xing Gong? No. Then how we can support "one cannot work with Xing if has not work with Xin before" based on the text? I see no way. And In Chap 1 it states what the entire method (one method!) works with. And it's not Xin or Xing.

 

How to satisfy the requirement about heart in 宗旨只要纯心行去? Simply by doing previous stage! I really recommend to find what the first stage is all about, realize that this a stage of Ming Gong (by effects at least) and that there is nothing before it.

[dawei]

Other opinions? This string is in Chap 4, which doesn't describe any initial stage. Is the process described in Chap 4 is a part of Xing Gong? No. Then how we can support "one cannot work with Xing if has not work with Xin before" based on the text? I see no way. And In Chap 1 it states what the entire method (one method!) works with. And it's not Xin or Xing.

 

How to satisfy the requirement about heart in 宗旨只要纯心行去? Simply by doing previous stage! I really recommend to find what the first stage is all about, realize that this a stage of Ming Gong (by effects at least) and that there is nothing before it.

 

This is plucked from the text. Not a thorough investigation and translation from start to end.

 

If you want to translate the text with commentary, you are welcomed.

[opendao]

This is plucked from the text. Not a thorough investigation and translation from start to end.

 

But people do big statements based on such "plucks" that have no support even in the English translation by Cleary.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

From Secret of the Golden Flower (Lu Dongbin), chapter three

 

(see modern Mandarin text at http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch3.html)

 

 

As for the rest, matters of entering and exiting stillness, the prelude and the aftermath, one can check the [buddhist] book Small Stopping and Observing for a reference.

18. Focusing around the center is a very subtle expression. The center is omnipresent; the whole universe is contained in it. This indicates the crucial point of Creation and through this one enters the gate. Focusing means to focus on this as a hint, not to become rigidly fixed. This expression is alive and subtle.

19. Stopping and observing are inseparable; they mean concentration and insight. When thoughts arise, you don't need to sit still as before, but you should investigate this thought: where is it? Where does it come from? Where does it go? Repeat this inquiry until you realize it cannot be grasped, then you will see where thoughts arise. After that you don`t need to seek out the point of arising any more. "Having looked for my mind, I realize it cannot be grasped; I have pacified your mind for you."

20. This is right observation. What opposes this is incorrect. Once one realizes it cannot be grasped, one still continuously practices stopping, followed by observing, practices observing followed by stopping. This is the double cultivation of stopping and observing. This is turning the light around.

 

 

and from chapter one

 

 

 

Therefore you have only to turn the light around; that is the deepest and most wonderful secret.

11.The light is easy to move, but difficult to fix. If it is made to circulate long enough, then it crystallizes itself; that is the Dharma body of the state of Self. This crystallized spirit is formed beyond the nine skies. This is what the Imprint of the Heart Sutra called: Then you may silently contemplate the Supreme Ruler and in twelve years time may wing your flight above. In carrying out this principle there is no other method that brings more progress, one must only concentrate one`s thoughts on it. The Surangama Sutra says: By purifying thought one can fly and will be born in heaven. Heaven is not the wide blue sky but a heavenly palace born of the body. If one keeps this up for a long time there develops quite naturally,in addition to the body, yet another spirit-body.

12. The Golden Flower is the Golden Pill (Elixir of Life). All changes of spiritual consciousness depend upon the heart. This wonderful charm , although it works very accurately, is yet so fluid that it needs extreme wisdom and alertness, and the most complete absorption and tranquility. People without this highest degree of wisdom and alertness do not find the way to apply the charm; people without this utmost capacity for absorption and tranquility cannot keep fast hold of it.

 

Also from chapter one

 

 

6. Now I am bestowed with the honor to be your guide and will first reveal to you the secret of the Taiyi Golden Flower, and then, I will explain the rest in detail.

 

So you can see why I'm not convinced that "secret methods" cannot be learned from the texts.

[LaoZiDao]

So you can see why I'm not convinced that "secret methods" cannot be learned from the texts.

 

Okay then go and learn it, from the books, which if read corectly contain no methods.. you will find yourself without direction, and not really knowing what you are doing. Reading all kinds of text from different people and linages and trying to put them into your own understanding. Which is how false schools are created

 

Just saying, you wont understand anything, not unless you have a teacher that is already at least a Di Xian, who can explain things to you. Your choice.

[opendao]

6. Now I am bestowed with the honor to be your guide and will first reveal to you the secret of the Taiyi Golden Flower, and then, I will explain the rest in detail.

 

So you can see why I'm not convinced that "secret methods" cannot be learned from the texts.

 

I don't want to convince you, I believe it's impossible :-), but "secret of the GF" is not the same as "secret method of the GF".... Yes, a lot of secrets are there (comparing to more recent books), but where is the method? What exactly person has to do to "turn the light around"? So again a lot about results, requirements, what has to be achieved, in which order, why etc, but nothing about any techniques, especially about initial techniques of Ming gong.

 

"Since ancient times, those who realized spiritual immortality have passed on the Tao by word of mouth, from one to another." (Chapter 1)

Edited August 10, 2014 by opendao

[JinlianPai]

 

Okay then go and learn it, from the books, which if read corectly contain no methods.. you will find yourself without direction, and not really knowing what you are doing. Reading all kinds of text from different people and linages and trying to put them into your own understanding. Which is how false schools are created

 

Just saying, you wont understand anything, not unless you have a teacher that is already at least a Di Xian, who can explain things to you. Your choice.

 

 

So tru kinda reminds me of the guys from here http://mopai.forumotion.cc/ who do the exact same as you describe....

 

 

 

Its funny and sad....

Edited August 10, 2014 by JinlianPai

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I don't want to convince you, I believe it's impossible :-), but "secret of the GF" is not the same as "secret method of the GF".... Yes, a lot of secrets are there (comparing to more recent books), but where is the method? What exactly person has to do to "turn the light around"? So again a lot about results, requirements, what has to be achieved, in which order, why etc, but nothing about any techniques, especially about initial techniques of Ming gong.

 

"Since ancient times, those who realized spiritual immortality have passed on the Tao by word of mouth, from one to another." (Chapter 1)

 

Well yes, he does say that it was passed down by word of mouth, but then goes on to say that he is going to reveal it, as quoted.

 

As for methods, I wouldn't agree with that either. For example, from chapter four:

 

 

6. When you sit down, lower your eyelids, establish your intention and then let go. However, if after you let go, you are not able to achieve your intention, then be attentive to the sound of your breathing.

7. One should not be able to hear one`s breathing; just listen to its silence. Once it`s audible, the breathing is coarse and superficial, not fine. Then be patient and breath lightly. The more you let go, the subtler it becomes. The subtler it is, the more quite it becomes.

8. After a long time, all of a sudden the subtle breath will be interrupted, true breathing manifests and the mind-body can be discerned. If the mind is light, the breathing is subtle. Once the mind is unified, it moves (controls) breath-energy. If breathing is subtle, the heart is light. Once breath-energy (气 [qi] ) is unified, it moves (controls) the mind. Stabilization of the mind must be preceded by cultivating breath-energy，because it is difficult to control the mind. Therefore breath-energy is used as a handle, and this is what is called maintening pure breath-energy.

 

 

For the record, I'm not claiming to be a Neidan master, teacher, expert or anything else. I'm just looking for clarification on statements that don't make sense to me.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So tru kinda reminds me of the guys from here http://mopai.forumotion.cc/ who do the exact same as you describe....

 

They base their understanding on one biography written by an outsider. Neidan has dozens of texts written by patriarchs of the lineages for hundreds of years. A pretty weak comparison.

[Taoist Texts]

Well yes, he does say that it was passed down by word of mouth, but then goes on to say that he is going to reveal it, as quoted.

Excellent! Of course the texts are for learning, what else? Moreover, in all Chinese traditions texts take vast precedence over oral teaching.

[LaoZiDao]

Chinese traditions texts take vast precedence over oral teaching.

Where does this idea come from?

[LaoZiDao]

When you sit down, lower your eyelids, establish your intention (what is your intention anyway?) and then let go (let go of what exactly?).

 

8. After a long time (i think you will be waiting a long time a very long time), all of a sudden the subtle breath will be interrupted, true breathing (so how to even know what this really means?) manifests and the mind-body can be discerned. If the mind (mind?) is light, the breathing is subtle. Once the mind is unified (unified with what?), it moves (controls) breath-energy. If breathing is subtle, the heart is light. Once breath-energy (气 [qi] ) is unified, it moves (controls) the mind.

 

Stabilization of the mind must be preceded by cultivating breath-energy，because it is difficult to control the mind. Therefore breath-energy is used as a handle, and this is what is called maintening pure breath-energy. (What? Please how is this a method? Practically take this away and practice it, and see where it gets you.

 

 

Its all too vague, and really there is no method there.

Edited August 10, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[opendao]

Well yes, he does say that it was passed down by word of mouth, but then goes on to say that he is going to reveal it, as quoted.

 

Again, I don't see anything about "methods" in that phrase (太乙金华宗旨发明), so I don't know why you think Lu wanted to reveal methods, and not just "secrets" as he wrote. 宗旨 can be translated differently, Cleary uses "source message", at http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch1.html it is "secret", but anyway these 2 characters have no relation to methods or practices.

 

As for methods, I wouldn't agree with that either. For example, from chapter four:

 

If we take it practically, we will see that we have no idea, how to make it work. How to make mind subtle? How to make mind unified? How to develop the energy (very important thing here)? What exactly means "when you sit down" 坐时? What breathing Lu speaks about if he is against any work on the physical body? And many other practical questions just for this part that is exceptionally simple and detailed comparing with other parts of the text.

 

This description is like an article about nuclear reactor at wikipedia: it is correct but can you build something using it? No, because there are a lot of details not written in texts for purpose.

 

So it's just an illusion of the method, not a method somebody can use. I don't want to speak about "traps" again, but... they work :-)

 

Excellent! Of course the texts are for learning, what else? Moreover, in all Chinese traditions texts take vast precedence over oral teaching.

 

The texts are for learning, but it's important what can be learnt from texts and what cannot. And also let's don't forget who these texts were addressed to.

 

Texts and oral teaching cannot be really compared, because their goal was different. None of the text can substitute heart-to-heart teaching. But without texts it's impossible to find and understand the teaching.

 

At least it works for Dao, I'm not sure about "all Chinese traditions".

[lifeforce]

The Secret of the Golden Flower, as stated in the Thomas Cleary translation, is a layman's handbook for realisation. No teacher is needed. Be your own teacher.

Leaders, teacher's, guru's, lineages etc etc are a means for authority figures to control.

[LaoZiDao]

The Secret of the Golden Flower, as stated in the Thomas Cleary translation, is a layman's handbook for realisation. No teacher is needed. Be your own teacher.

Leaders, teacher's, guru's, lineages etc etc are a means for authority figures to control.

Sure, and some how Thomas Cleary is an authority of Dao too?

 

So based on this we can do anything we feel, yeah? Some ideas or thoughts, inspired by interpretations of texts (at best), and we can hope this can reverse our age back to youth (first stage)? Because the text (or any text) gives no starting point on what to *actually do*. So where do you start?

 

 

Its really a risk to think you know Dao by your own intuition. How to achieve Dao is not to flow with nature, nature leads to death, learn the basic 5 elements creative and destructive cycles. You know the circle of life? Aka the path to death. Its not Dao.

 

Its hard enough to achieve stages in Neidan even with an accomplished teacher helping. Without a teacher, I believe impossible.

Edited August 10, 2014 by LaoZiDao

[Slim]

Here is a list of nine internal alchemy texts, each has a short description, and each has been translated into English.

 

www.goldenelixir.com/press/occ_01_9_taoist_books.html

(There is a free PDF download on the upper right.)

 

The texts in the list are all important to the neidan tradition, however I doubt any would be much use for "preliminary neidan study." Good luck though.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Slim

[Harmonious Emptiness]

When you read the entire text, a lot of the subtleties become clearer, while my way of describing it may not fit how you would describe your experience. Some words are beyond words but can still be understood with a closer affinity to the whole (of the written teachings, and their source/destination).

 

I'll answer a few of these as best I can though, for lack of time

When you sit down, lower your eyelids, establish your intention (what is your intention anyway?)

Gather your concentration, fix resolve on this moment.

 

 

and then let go (let go of what exactly?).

8. After a long time (i think you will be waiting a long time a very long time), all of a sudden the subtle breath will be interrupted

see 4. above the 8.,

 

". So should one have no thoughts? To be without thoughts is impossible. Should one not breathe? It is impossible not to breathe. The best way is to turn the illness into medicine, which means to have heart and breath rest on each other."

 

莫若即其病而为药，则心息相依是已

No better way than to immediately turn this illness into the medicine by heart-mind and breath mutually leaning together 是已 at the cessation. (my translation)

 

Meaning that the illness becomes the medicine for the other. The stillness between breaths becomes the stillness of the mind. The stillness of the mind becomes the stillness of the breath, or at least the post heaven breath.

 

, true breathing (so how to even know what this really means?)

Heaven breathing. Thoughts have ceased. Heaven is breathing you. The music plays the player, if you will.

 

manifests and the mind-body can be discerned. If the mind (mind?)

 

Mind and breath are united now.

 

is light, the breathing is subtle.

 

United.

 

Once the mind is unified (unified with what?), it moves (controls) breath-energy. If breathing is subtle, the heart is light.

 

一

 

Once breath-energy (气 [qi] ) is unified, it moves (controls) the mind.

 

 

Stabilization of the mind must be preceded by cultivating breath-energy，because it is difficult to control the mind. Therefore breath-energy is used as a handle, and this is what is called maintening pure breath-energy.

 

纯 Pure, honest, sincere 气 Qi

Edited August 10, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness