Texts for preliminary neidan study

[joeblast]

http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm

[Andrei]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/99535352/Foundations-of-Internal-Alchemy-A-Slideshow

[lifeforce]

If you choose the correct translation of The Secret Of The Golden Flower, which is the Thomas Clearly version, you will realise very quickly that this text has nothing whatsoever to do with breathing, sitting meditation or energy work. It is about turning the mind around to see one's original essence. Mindfulness and pristine awareness in all of one's life situations.

[Vitalii]

If you choose the correct translation of The Secret Of The Golden Flower, which is the Thomas Clearly version, you will realise very quickly that this text has nothing whatsoever to do with breathing, sitting meditation or energy work.

 

sorry, but it is a big mistake.

 

静坐 ( (Jing zuo) = sitting meditation.

 

The Secret Of The Golden Flower:

 

Charter 3:

一日不静坐，此光流转，何所底止！若一刻能静坐

If you do not practice meditation (Jing zuo 静坐) every day, this light flows out, who knows when it will stop? If you only sit quietly (Jing zuo 静坐) for a quarter of an hour...

 

惟谛观息静便成正觉，用逆法也。

"Only through observing clearly and making ones breathing quite, can one reach perfect enlightenment. This is application of the method of reversal."

or

"Just observe clearly, and when you breath grows quiet you then become accurately aware. This is application of the method of reversal."

 

Charter 7:

静坐一、二时最妙。

if you can sit quietly (Jing zuo 静坐) for a few hours, that is best.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Vitalii

[Vitalii]

Also you can find more information about breathing and Qi in Charter 4 "Turning Around the Light and Tuning the Breathing".

 

for example:

 

息之出入，不可使耳闻，听惟听其无声也。一有声，便粗浮而不入细，即耐心轻轻微微些，愈放愈微，愈微愈静，

 

久之，忽然微者速断，此则真息现前，而心体可识矣。盖心细则息细，心一则动气也，息细则心细，气一则动心也。定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

 

You should not be able to hear your breathing; just listen to its soundlessess. Once it`s audible, the breathing is coarse and superficial, and do not enter the fine. Then be patient and breath lightly. The more you let go, the subtler it becomes. The subtler it is, the more quite it becomes.

After a long time, all of a sudden the subtle breath will be interrupted and the true breathing will appear, and the mind-heart and body can be discerned/knowledge. If the mind is thin and soft, the breathing is subtle. When mind is unified, it moves energy (Qi). If breathing is subtle, the heart is light. When energy (Qi) is unified, it moves the mind-heart. Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy because the mind-heart has no place to set to work on. Therefore energy (Qi) is used as a handle/a starting point, and this is what is called preservation of pure energy (Qi).

[Andrei]

If you choose the correct translation of The Secret Of The Golden Flower, which is the Thomas Clearly version, you will realise very quickly that this text has nothing whatsoever to do with breathing, sitting meditation or energy work. It is about turning the mind around to see one's original essence. Mindfulness and pristine awareness in all of one's life situations.

 

Sorry, but not everything is zen...

 

The Huiming Jing_A Translation and Discussion (James Michael Nicholson)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/147154490

[lifeforce]

To be honest I think I'd rather trust an esteemed translator of Daoist and Buddhist texts, author of scores of books, than some random guys on an internet forum.

[lifeforce]

 

Sorry, but not everything is zen...The Huiming Jing_A Translation and Discussion (James Michael Nicholson)http://www.scribd.com/doc/147154490

Who mentioned Zen ?

Edited July 31, 2014 by lifeforce

[Vitalii]

To be honest I think I'd rather trust an esteemed translator of Daoist and Buddhist texts, author of scores of books, than some random guys on an internet forum.

 

I rather trust own eyes and read text in original

 

P.S.

If you reread translation of Thomas Clearly you could see that you a wrong about meditation, breathing and energy work.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Vitalii

[lifeforce]

From the Cleary translation : 'This manual contains a number of helpful meditation techniques, but it's central method is deeper than a form of meditation'

 

and further...

'The essential practice of the golden flower requires no apparatus, no philosophical or religious dogma, no special paraphernalia or ritual. It is practiced in the course of daily life. It is near at hand, being in the mind itself, yet it involves no imagery or thought. It is remote only in the sense that it is a use of attention generally unfamiliar to the mind habituated to imagination and thinking.'

 

But which 'original text' are you referring to ? It seems to me that it is the same 'original' that Wilhelm used.

'What Jung did not know was that the text he was reading was in fact a garbled translation of a truncated version of a corrupted recension of the original work.'

 

and further...

'There are enough flaws in Wilhelm's readings of grammar, terminology and conceptual structures to render his translation practically dysfunctional.'

Cleary is pretty damning in his thoughts on the Wilhelm version, even though he thanks him for bringing focus on this text to the Western world.

 

and why this text is not a formal meditation practice...

'In modern times, followers of sectarian Zen and Taoism have come to lay great stress on sitting meditation, but classical masters have pointed out that addiction to stillness can have serious mental and physical drawbacks. If the practice of "turning the light around" is carried on only in specific settings or postures, it may be impossible to integrate it fully with everyday life, leading to a kind of split personality'

 

Thank you.

[Vitalii]

From the Cleary translation : 'This manual contains a number of helpful meditation techniques, but it's central method is deeper than a form of meditation'

 

and further...

'The essential practice of the golden flower requires no apparatus, no philosophical or religious dogma, no special paraphernalia or ritual. It is practiced in the course of daily life. It is near at hand, being in the mind itself, yet it involves no imagery or thought. It is remote only in the sense that it is a use of attention generally unfamiliar to the mind habituated to imagination and thinking.'

 

But which 'original text' are you referring to ? It seems to me that it is the same 'original' that Wilhelm used.

'What Jung did not know was that the text he was reading was in fact a garbled translation of a truncated version of a corrupted recension of the original work.'

 

and further...

'There are enough flaws in Wilhelm's readings of grammar, terminology and conceptual structures to render his translation practically dysfunctional.'

Cleary is pretty damning in his thoughts on the Wilhelm version, even though he thanks him for bringing focus on this text to the Western world.

 

and why this text is not a formal meditation practice...

'In modern times, followers of sectarian Zen and Taoism have come to lay great stress on sitting meditation, but classical masters have pointed out that addiction to stillness can have serious mental and physical drawbacks. If the practice of "turning the light around" is carried on only in specific settings or postures, it may be impossible to integrate it fully with everyday life, leading to a kind of split personality'

 

Thank you.

 

Please, reread charters 3, 4 and 7 in translation of Thomas Clearly and you could see that in the text says about meditation, breathing and energy work.

 

sorry, maybe you did not understand some things.

 

You need to know that there are special practices like sitting meditation and practices in daily life. If adepts forget about practices in daily life their practice is not correct.

 

You need to separate false meditation (Da zuo) and true meditation.

 

The Shiwulun attributed to Wang Chongyang contains a section entitled “Dazuo” 打坐 (Meditation). According to this text,

但有絲毫動靜思念，即不名靜坐。能如此者，雖身處於塵世，名已列於仙位

 

"As long as there is the slightest thought of motion and stillness, this is not what I call sitting in a motionless calm and silence (Jinzou). Those who can sitting in a motionless calm and silence, although their physical bodies resides in the world of dust / material world /, but their names are already in the ranks of the Immortals."

 

and

 

“Seated meditation” does not simply mean to sit with the body erect and the eyes closed. This is false sitting.To sit authentically, you must maintain a heart-mind like Mount Tai, remaining unmovable and unshakable throughout the entire day. [Maintain this practice] whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, whether in movement or stillness. "

 

 

Also you need to know that:

静坐 (Jing zuo) = sitting meditation / sit quietly

气 (Qi) = energy

息 (Xi) = breathing

 

Especially for you I will highlight these characters and you can see them in the text:

 

The Secret Of The Golden Flower - http://www.xiulian.com/xmzhf/YLCSH/05jfzh.htm

 

Charter 3:

一日不静坐，此光流转，何所底止！若一刻能静坐

If you do not practice meditation (Jing zuo 静坐) every day, this light flows out, who knows when it will stop? If you only sit quietly (Jing zuo 静坐) for a quarter of an hour...

 

惟谛观息静便成正觉，用逆法也。

"Only through observing clearly and making ones breathing quite, can one reach perfect enlightenment. This is application of the method of reversal."

or

"Just observe clearly, and when you breath grows quiet you then become accurately aware. This is application of the method of reversal."

 

Charter 7:

静坐一、二时最妙。

if you can sit quietly (Jing zuo 静坐) for a few hours, that is best.

 

Charter 4:

 

息之出入，不可使耳闻，听惟听其无声也。一有声，便粗浮而不入细，即耐心轻轻微微些，愈放愈微，愈微愈静，

 

久之，忽然微者速断，此则真息现前，而心体可识矣。盖心细则息细，心一则动气也，息细则心细，气一则动心也。定心必先之以养气者，亦以心无处入手，故缘气为之端倪，所谓纯气之守也。

 

You should not be able to hear your breathing; just listen to its soundlessess. Once it`s audible, the breathing is coarse and superficial, and do not enter the fine. Then be patient and breath lightly. The more you let go, the subtler it becomes. The subtler it is, the more quite it becomes.

After a long time, all of a sudden the subtle breath will be interrupted and the true breathing will appear, and the mind-heart and body can be discerned/knowledge. If the mind is thin and soft, the breathing is subtle. When mind is unified, it moves energy (Qi). If breathing is subtle, the heart is light. When energy (Qi) is unified, it moves the mind-heart. Stabilization of the mind-heart must be preceded by cultivating energy because the mind-heart has no place to set to work on. Therefore energy (Qi) is used as a handle/a starting point, and this is what is called preservation of pure energy (Qi).

 

 

And this is not all.

 

After this how can you say that in The Secret Of The Golden Flower nothing is said about breathing, sitting meditation or energy work.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Vitalii

[Vitalii]

The Secret Of The Golden Flower is very deep and amazing text.

 

in my opinion, translation of Thomas Clearly in some parts of this text is not really good. This is normal, because it is anciens text and everyone can make a mistakes.

For example:

Xing (性) - Essence

性命不可见，寄之天光 - Essence and Life are invisible, so they are associated with sky and light.

 

I'd rather translate it like:

Xing (性) - Original Nature

性命不可见，寄之天光 - Original Nature [Xing] and life [Ming] cannot be seen. They are contained in the light of heaven.

[soaring crane]

Tom Bisio, Decoding the Dao

 

Yang Jwing-Ming, The Root of Chinese Qigong

 

Roger Jahnke, The Healing Promise of Qi

[lifeforce]

The Secret Of The Golden Flower is very deep and amazing text.

 

in my opinion, translation of Thomas Clearly in some parts of this text is not really good. This is normal, because it is anciens text and everyone can make a mistakes.

 

For example:

Xing (性) - Essence

性命不可见，寄之天光 - Essence and Life are invisible, so they are associated with sky and light.

 

I'd rather translate it like:

Xing (性) - Original Nature

性命不可见，寄之天光 - Original Nature [Xing] and life [Ming] cannot be seen. They are contained in the light of heaven.

In your opinion ?

I'd rather translate ?

OK. No more comments from me.

Thomas Cleary must be wrong also.

[Vitalii]

In your opinion ?

I'd rather translate ?

OK. No more comments from me.

Thomas Cleary must be wrong also.

 

that Xing is Original Nature, it is not only my opinion,

 

Thomas Cleary is human and as I know he doesn't have initiation in Daoism, so he can make a mistakes in translations. Everyone can make a mistakes.

[soaring crane]

Thomas Cleary is human and as I know he doesn't have initiation in Daoism, so he can make a mistakes in translations. Everyone can make a mistakes.

 

He used to be discussed more frequently, and generally considered to be a living translation mill. The quality of his translations is often called into question. I can't judge directly, but I've read enough opinions from people who are highly qualified to do so, and the consensus is consistently negative.

[opendao]

Haha, you're right that the Secret of Golden Flower has no relation to energy work, breathing and meditation.

 

But pure awareness is also not a method. As well as "seeing your natural face". These are results.

 

The book is about Xing and Ming, and all this characters about "sitting meditation" and "breathing" have to be explained by a teacher.

 

Some people see a Chinese character for breathing, but they don't understand the context (because it's impossible without initiation), and don't understand what all these "usual" words mean in Neidan.

 

But Xing Gong is not about "meditation", and Ming gong is not about "energy work". And ordinary breathing is not used at all.

 

About the thread. "Every translation is an interpretation". Because there are no translators initiated in any traditional schools and methods, that is why is really hard to recommend any of their books.

 

Again, to get success in Neidan, you need 2 things:

 

1) practices given by a Teacher

2) books, you have to read them in Chinese and ask for explanations from your Teacher

 

Without it nothing can happen. No shortcuts.

Edited July 31, 2014 by opendao

[Andrei]

Principles of the Innate Disposition and the Lifespan (Xingming guizhi ) (1615)

by

Daniel Burton-Rose

 

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Xing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf

Edited August 1, 2014 by Andrei

[Andrei]

Nei Ching Tu - the diagram of inner channels

 

http://wangfengyi.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/neichingtu1.pdf

 

Hsiu Chen Tu - the diagram for cultivating perfection

 

http://wangfengyi.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/diagrama-do-cultivo-da-perfeic3a7c3a3o.pdf

Edited August 1, 2014 by Andrei

[opendao]

Principles of the Innate Disposition and the Lifespan (Xingming guizhi ) (1615)

by

Daniel Burton-Rose

 

http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Xing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf

 

Do you think this one is good for _preliminary_ Neidan studies? What is your general opinion about this book, school, translation etc?

[ChiDragon]

Do you think this one is good for _preliminary_ Neidan studies? What is your general opinion about this book, school, translation etc?

 

.......very poor understanding with mistranslation.

[Andrei]

My opinion is for preliminary <everything> studies read everything you can and you have available to gather as much information as possible from different authors, backgrounds, understandings ant then you can dissolve and coagulate the essence of that information.

[opendao]

My opinion is for preliminary <everything> studies read everything you can and you have available to gather as much information as possible from different authors, backgrounds, understandings ant then you can dissolve and coagulate the essence of that information.

 

For most people it's the same as to eat everything they see in a buffet... It can lead to a chaos and big confusions :-\

Edited August 6, 2014 by opendao

[LaoZiDao]

For most people it's the same as to eat everything they see in a buffet... It can lead to a chaos and big confusions :-\

 

Yep, that is how today we have hybrid super religion groups, all books and traditions mashed together to form a super new age, new world religion. From Laozi to jesus, Indian Dream catchers to Aborigional stories, somehow they are all related according to them, heh :\

[deci belle]

Internal chinese alchemy is something that really interests me, but I don't know where to begin. What I do know is a haphazard array of ideas an concepts that I've strung together on the thread of my personal experience.

 

I began with the secret of the golden flower text, and I feel like it is a very useful text, but I was looking to find some complimentary texts to adjunct my learning and fortify my knowledge of the concepts used.

 

I'm hoping some of you guys might have some useful insights or leads for me.

Thanks.

 

hi picklepadma~ If you are interested in energy work… that is one thing a lot of people will throw around as internal alchemy.

 

If you have a natural affinity for spiritual alchemy, working with essence directly, this is another matter entirely.